pure O2 aeration or yeast starter: choose one

I have enough dough in my projected AG gear budget to buy the Williams brewing aeration kit, or a flask and stir plate. I might have the clams to get the aeration kit and just the flask...

Anyhoo, which is better to buy NOW? The flask/stir plate or aeration kit? Originally I was planning on aeration via venturi tube anyway.

As I write this I'm thinking the stir plate/flask would be the better initial investment. What do you think?

We built a stir plate with used parts that works great, and has produced consistent, solid results.

Build a stir plate and buy the o2 kit!!!

go cheapo and do both. get an ebay project-box stir-starter for way cheaper than a pro lab stir plate. and do aeration (not pure O2) with a 35 dollar kit with an aquarium air pump and diffusion stone with a hepa filter.

or, if you must choose, do the starter kit first.

thegerm said:

go cheapo and do both. get an ebay project-box stir-starter for way cheaper than a pro lab stir plate. and do aeration (not pure O2) with a 35 dollar kit with an aquarium air pump and diffusion stone with a hepa filter.

or, if you must choose, do the starter kit first.

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From what I understand, aeration without pure O2 isn't actually any more effective than shaking for 2min... either way you reach the maximum solubility of O2 from ambient air. For me, if I'm literally sticking an object into the wort I better have a damn good reason for doing so. If shaking is equal/almost equal to pumping air, I'd just shake.

If I had to do it again I'd get the O2 kit first. I use dry yeast a lot anyways so I could've been fine without a stir plate/flask, and if I really wanted to use liquid yeast I'd just use a 1gal jug with the shaking and decanting method. I've noticed some positive effects from the 02 that I really like, my yeast seems much happier.

I did build my stir plate for literally $0 and got a flask from a lab that was closing so I was lucky in that regard... you could probably throw together a stir plate almost for free as well, you'd just have to pick up a flask and stir bar.

In Chris White's Yeast book(pages 78-79), he says that you only get 2.7ppm from shaking for 5 minutes. He says you can get up to 8ppm if you either shake the fermentor like a madman on meth for an extended period(paraphrased) or use an aquarium pump.

pure O2 will give you higher still, of course.

My point in replying is to highlight that there's a big difference between shaking and aeration.

I'd get the O2 kit. You can always buy more yeast or oxygenate your starters.

I have the William's O2 rig and it's great. It has cut down on some subtle but perceptible bacterial ickiness from the splash aeration I'd been doing before.

+1, O2 kit first. You could still make starters in a mason jar and oxygenate them for good results. Harvest and repitch and you won't make a starter but you will use the O2.

There are a bunch of cheap stir plate build threads out there.

+1 for O2

You can make a starter without a stir plate but you can make one so easily. O2 is really essential. My O2 valve was only $20 +14 dollars for stone + $10 for tank.

CLem

Do you have a drill? If so, the easiest way to do it is to get a stir rod (like for degassing wine) and stir vigorously with the drill for 1-2 min. This is the only thing I do. If you really want more than ambient O2, you can hit the headspace with pure oxygen and THEN stir. No stone, no hose, no regulator. Easy peasy.

http://blog.flaminio.net/blogs/index.php/beer/oxygen/

Edit: by the way that is not my blog, I just found the experiments and results very interesting

Love my stir plate, and just built a pure O2 aeration system.

As others have said above, couldn't you use your Williams system to aerate your starter?

O2 kit.
Buy a 1 gallon growler for $4 to make your starters and just swirl it around until you can get a stirplate.

I'm new at this but I'm skeptical about o2. I've brewed 2 batches with a starter, and both of them were spitting krausen like crazy after 24h. With both, I just let my wort splash into the carboy via the valve on my turkey fryer, no shaking, no pumping... I can't really imagine how much more vigorous a fermentation I need. What am I missing?

Using pure O2 might not get the yeast to take off faster but it WILL result in a cleaner tasting brew.

I have a stir-plate now, as well as a pure O2 setup. I'm using a large O2 tank, dual stage regulator and the wand from Williams. I'll have a flow meter in line before I use the setup again.

A stir-plate makes making starters so much easier. Either make or buy one.

Wow, thanks for all the responses. You guys are great.

I'm assuming from the comments a starter without a stir plate is better than no starter at all...?

thegerm said:

In Chris White's Yeast book(pages 78-79), he says that you only get 2.7ppm from shaking for 5 minutes. He says you can get up to 8ppm if you either shake the fermentor like a madman on meth for an extended period(paraphrased) or use an aquarium pump.

pure O2 will give you higher still, of course.

My point in replying is to highlight that there's a big difference between shaking and aeration.

Click to expand...

"With plenty of headpsace, a strong back, and lots of vigorous shaking, a homebrewer can get levels as high as 8ppm into the wort. This is about the maximum using air."

I'd bet you that in his little graph where he lists shaking vs O2 stone times the shaking was done on an orbital shaker, a homebrewer who puts a cap on the top of his fermenter and puts a tennis ball underneath it and shakes the living crap out of it for a few minutes can shake a lot more violently.

kpfeif said:

I'm new at this but I'm skeptical about o2. I've brewed 2 batches with a starter, and both of them were spitting krausen like crazy after 24h. With both, I just let my wort splash into the carboy via the valve on my turkey fryer, no shaking, no pumping... I can't really imagine how much more vigorous a fermentation I need. What am I missing?

Click to expand...

Vigorous does not necessarily mean ideal. Yeast need O2 for oxidation during fermentation and during reproduction for constructing their lipid membranes. What you're going for is the healthiest yeast you can get, not necessarily the 'most awesome looking' or 'most fastest' fermentation you can get. Some people like to greatly overpitch because fermentation starts in an hour... but that's not the ideal situation for the yeast, you wind up with a lot of dead and less healthy yeast compared to pitching the appropriate amount. The stuff you can't see is arguably more important than the stuff you can. With the right amount of oxygen, you will get better attenuation, your fermentation will complete sooner, and your yeast will be less stressed. I've also noticed my beers condition much faster and taste cleaner, I seem to have defeated the "house flavor" that my previous beers had (it wasn't really bad but I'm glad it's gone).

Jubilee said:

Wow, thanks for all the responses. You guys are great.

I'm assuming from the comments a starter without a stir plate is better than no starter at all...?

Click to expand...

You got it

Jubilee said:

Wow, thanks for all the responses. You guys are great.

I'm assuming from the comments a starter without a stir plate is better than no starter at all...?

Click to expand...

The stir plate over a non stirred started starter has has added benefit of keeping yeast in suspension and driving off CO2, both of which will increase cell counts. You should still oxygenate your starters however. For the cash, you will get more bang for your buck with O2. You can just swirl your starters every once in a while until you can get the stir plate set up.

Bigscience said:

The stir plate over a non stirred started starter has has added benefit of keeping yeast in suspension and driving off CO2, both of which will increase cell counts. You should still oxygenate your starters however. For the cash, you will get more bang for your buck with O2. You can just swirl your starters every once in a while until you can get the stir plate set up.

Click to expand...

Thanks Bigscience.

Yup definitely the O2 kit. As others have said, you can make a starter in anything. A stir plate is nice to have but not totally necessary either.

I would go with the stuff needed to make yeast starters.

I would then start harvesting and re-using yeast.

Then put the $$ you save buying yeast to getting the O2 kit.

See this thread.

I've been making starters just fine without using a stir plate. I know the above posts have beaten it to death, but definitely go with O2.

Neither are a necessity, but I think you'll notice a more drastic improvement in quality with the O2.

TheZymurgist said:

See this thread.

I've been making starters just fine without using a stir plate. I know the above posts have beaten it to death, but definitely go with O2.

Neither are a necessity, but I think you'll notice a more drastic improvement in quality with the O2.

Click to expand...

Thanks, decided to go with the O2 and a flask for now.

TheZymurgist said:

See this thread.

I've been making starters just fine without using a stir plate. I know the above posts have beaten it to death, but definitely go with O2.

Neither are a necessity, but I think you'll notice a more drastic improvement in quality with the O2.

Click to expand...

Agreed, O2 is more important than a stirplate... BUT, making good starters is also an important item. You can make smaller volume starters for your brews with a stirplate. Plus, it's another cool item to have, making you more like a mad scientist than before... :rockin:

I used to think non stir plate starters were fine too....until I built a stir plate. True, making a starter at all is better than not but you really see a dfference on a stir plate. As far as the op is concerned, youre better off with the o2 setup. IMHO you wasted your money on a flask. You could have built a stir plate for less than the flask cost. You could make starters in a growler, or a vase or something you probably already have laying around the house. I do mine in a wine decanter or growler or gallon jug dependng on the size of the starter. Just remember, when you build or buy the stir plate, get extra stir bars.

Jubilee said:

Wow, thanks for all the responses. You guys are great.

I'm assuming from the comments a starter without a stir plate is better than no starter at all...?

Click to expand...

For sure, get the O2 and then make spaghetti one week and save the jar... Or get a jar from anywhere.

PS: clean the spaghetti jar real good

+1 to the stir rod/drill method for aeration

I picked up a plastic paint stirrer with a metal shaft that attaches to a drill from mega-low mart for about 3 bucks. Works like a champ.

scone said:

Do you have a drill? If so, the easiest way to do it is to get a stir rod (like for degassing wine) and stir vigorously with the drill for 1-2 min. This is the only thing I do. If you really want more than ambient O2, you can hit the headspace with pure oxygen and THEN stir. No stone, no hose, no regulator. Easy peasy.

http://blog.flaminio.net/blogs/index.php/beer/oxygen/

Edit: by the way that is not my blog, I just found the experiments and results very interesting

Click to expand...

mikeysab said:

As far as the op is concerned, youre better off with the o2 setup. IMHO you wasted your money on a flask. You could have built a stir plate for less than the flask cost. You could make starters in a growler, or a vase or something you probably already have laying around the house. I do mine in a wine decanter or growler or gallon jug dependng on the size of the starter. Just remember, when you build or buy the stir plate, get extra stir bars.

Click to expand...

Well, I've got the cash to get a flask this month and I've read that the stir bars get thrown when you don't use a flask. Anyhoo...this is a monthly budget thing. In Sept or Oct I'll get the stir plate and be all good. So far as DIY stuff...wish I had the time! We have a 2 month old baby at home and I just feel lucky my wife tolerates my time spent brewing. I'd rather spend the extra dollars in exchange for time.

Cheers to you guys, I appreciate the opinions!

I never used a flask and have'nt had a problem with my bars getting thrown. I do sometimes wish I could boil right in my starter vessel though.

Congrats on the kid. I have a 6 and a 3 year old. Its hard to find time to brew but my wifes been good about giving me time lately. We usually give each other a day where we do our own thing with the kids. Every other day is family time. Anyway, good luck with the baby and getting your eqipment together