At wits end with this persistent problem - anybody have any insight?

Gawdamit. Just tapped the extract Wit I brewed to troubleshoot a persistent off-flavor that I think is oxidation. No mineral additions except for 1/2 tablet campden. Brewed an extract to see if it was something wrong with the mash. Switched sanitizers, purged keg with C02, and carbonated immediately for 2 weeks at 12 psi. The beer looks fine, and is actually very drinkable, just that bit off. I leave everything in an ale pail for at least 3 weeks

I've had this funk for the last few brews. I tried bottling 2 batches, and while the flavor is not as pronounced, it's still there. I even thought it may have been old hops, but I've eliminated that because the extract kit was pre-hopped.

I know this is a shot in the dark, but has anybody had a similar experience with this problem? It seems it's definitely on the cold side of the process. I rack with an autosyphon and chill with a plate chiller while whirlpooling back into the BK. I'm stumped.

Only time I have seen anything like this was when either plastic bucket had micro scratches hiding bugs or old transfer tubing. After replacing those off bitterness tastes went away. Not sure if this is your case or not but wanted to share my story.

Good Luck...

Check water supply?

IMO Oxidation takes a bit of time to develop, and it's pretty unusual to find it if you are relatively careful.

I'd start with the process of elimination with my next brew. Ditch the "Ale Pail" and siphon. Those seem to be the most likely culprits for harboring bad things. Plate chillers seem to be notorious for being unable to be completely clean and sanitary also. If you have doubts about the chiller I'd either not use it or clean the hell out of it prior.

Bake the chiller at 300 for 3 hours or run some Acid #5 through it for 30 minutes at 150*f.

If the taste is still there replace the pails and siphon.

If the taste still wields it's ugly head after that........


Maybe try coffee?

What water are you using? Have you tried store-bought spring water?

AZ_IPA said:

What water are you using? Have you tried store-bought spring water?

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Maybe he shoul'd try some organic barley.

GilaMinumBeer said:

Bake the chiller at 300 for 3 hours or run some Acid #5 through it for 30 minutes at 150*f.

If the taste is still there replace the pails and siphon.

If the taste still wields it's ugly head after that........


Maybe try coffee?

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I am kinda suspecting the chiller. I don't remember this at all when I was using an IC. But then again, I don't remember this before I started using the RIMS either. Both are CIP with PBW, hot, then rinsed with equally hot water. I'm ready to try any and all recommendations.

Homercidal said:

Check water supply?

IMO Oxidation takes a bit of time to develop, and it's pretty unusual to find it if you are relatively careful.

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I know I have chloramines, hence the campden. But the mineral make-up of the water should be fine for the baseline treatment AJ recommended.

AZ_IPA said:

What water are you using? Have you tried store-bought spring water?

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No. Not yet. But that's a good idea to eliminate that source. I think I have good brewing water though.

GilaMinumBeer said:

Maybe he shoul'd try some organic barley.

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I know this fella in AZ who's just getting into barley farming. I could probably get as much as I want. Outside that, it would be Organicbarley.com, minimum order 12 tons.

Check the Autospihon to see it it is getting worn and letting air in. Just a thought - if it was pre-hopped extract, I'd suspect that. Have they all used pre-hopped extract?

Rhoobarb said:

Check the Autospihon to see it it is getting worn and letting air in. Just a thought - if it was pre-hopped extract, I'd suspect that. Have they all used pre-hopped extract?

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No, this was an extract kit that I brewed to eliminate the possibility of problems with my no-sparge mashing process. The others have been all-grain, and with relatively fresh (vacupacked in freezer) hops. I can't really see any excessive air bubbles in the the autosyphon tubing.

I see no description of the off-flavor. just 'off' and 'you think its oxidation'.

is it bitter? sweaty? horse blanket? band-aid? medicinal? wet cardboard?

malkore said:

I see no description of the off-flavor. just 'off' and 'you think its oxidation'.

is it bitter? sweaty? horse blanket? band-aid? medicinal? wet cardboard?

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I guess if I had to describe it would be wet cardboard....maybe horse blanket, although I've never tasted either. I plan to take a bottle of this to the brewery tomorrow, maybe a more trained palate can tell me what it is. Maybe they can tell me how to fix it. It's been a real bugger lately.

subscribed... Waiting to see what the brewery guys tell you.

How long do you let the campden sit in the brewing liquor before you brew with it? I have been told it needs to sit overnight which I take to mean like 10 hours or so, I usually let it go for 12 hours or more.

I've never heard the 12 hour thing before. I add it as I go through my brew day, adding small amounts to mash and sparge water as needed.

I would also suspect some type of infection getting in from your autosiphon, tubing or fermenter. Replace those three things and I'll bet the off-flavor goes away. Have you noticed any film or whitish layer on the beer when you go to rack it from the primary?

Steven9026 said:

subscribed... Waiting to see what the brewery guys tell you.

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Head brewer said he could detect no off flavor. Said it was overcarbonated though.

RedIrocZ-28 said:

How long do you let the campden sit in the brewing liquor before you brew with it? I have been told it needs to sit overnight which I take to mean like 10 hours or so, I usually let it go for 12 hours or more.

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I crush 1/2 tablet into the bk the fill it immediately.

KingBrianI said:

I would also suspect some type of infection getting in from your autosiphon, tubing or fermenter. Replace those three things and I'll bet the off-flavor goes away. Have you noticed any film or whitish layer on the beer when you go to rack it from the primary?

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No signs of infection, I think I may be over-sensitized to a perceived flavor. Maybe overcarbonation exacerbated it. I'm still looking into the water issue, have a filtered sample "aging" in the fridge now.

posting this from a google search. This guy sems to know what he is talking about.

"From the reaction schemes I've seen, one molecule of metabisulfite
(S2O5--) is able to react with one atom of chlorine and convert it to
nontoxic chloride. The brochure from my water utility says: "The average
free residual chlorine concentration in the system is maintained at 0.15
to 0.20 parts per million." Let's bump that up to 1 ppm for good
measure. (I'd call the utility to confirm dosing levels, but it's a
holiday ...)

1 ppm is 1 microgram/L or 28 nM Chlorine. That means we need to dose the
water to at least 28 nM metabisulfite to treat it. Assuming no waters of
hydration in your potassium metabisulfite (222.32 g/mole), that means
you need 6.3 mg/L.

20 US Gallons is 75.7 L, so you'd need just over 475 mg per 20 gallons
to treat a 1 ppm chlorine level. If you had a higher level of *total*
chlorine, you'd need to up that in proportion.

Note that there is no problem with dosing more - it's reported to be
safe for fish, and the excess just reacts with oxygen anyway. (I ran
across some mailing lists where some people claim to intentionally
overdose their alcoholic fermentation to limit adverse effects of oxygen.)

Note to the fish-keepers: if you're have chloramines in the water, the
metabisulfite will detoxify the chlorine, but will release ammonia. So
our hypothetical 1 ppm chlorine will release somewhere around 0.25 - 0.5
ppm (by wt) ammonia if it's present as chloramines.

Products like AmQuel use hydroxymethanesulfonate (HOCH2SO2H) or
hydroxymethanesulfinate (HOCH2SO3H) to both convert chlorine to chloride
and bind the ammonia.

As always, the Krib is a good source of details:
http://www.thekrib.com/Chemistry/cl.html

P.S. Anyone know of a cheap source of hydroxymethanesulf(o/i)nate
available to consumers?
"

I have yet to see any exact reference on how long it takes to react with the chloramine, but, I cannot assume that the reaction is immediate.

Reel - you brought a bottle conditioned beer to brewer? Aren't you convinced it's related to kegging?

If you brought a kegged, then bottled beer, I apologize for not keeping up.

AZ_IPA said:

Reel - you brought a bottle conditioned beer to brewer? Aren't you convinced it's related to kegging?

If you brought a kegged, then bottled beer, I apologize for not keeping up.

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I filled a bottle(s) from the keg(s).

For what it's worth, here is some info about CO2 pressure and the off flavors.. I'm no expert, but I can tell a big difference in the taste of my beers at different CO2 levels. This was an answer that I got when I question CO2 levels and their effects on the beer.
"When you are using CO2 to dispense beer the beer is sensitive to picking up too much gas (over carbonation), and also loosing gas (going flat). Whatever gas you are using, it always comes into contact with the beer in the keg. The gas entering the keg pushes down on the beer forcing it up a tube and out into the draft system. When using CO2 there is little room for error in deciding how much pressure is needed in the keg. If the temperature of the beer raises 2 degrees, one more pound of pressure is needed. If the temperature of the beer drops 2 degrees, the pressure in the keg needs to be reduced by one pound. Different brands of beer also need different amounts of pressure. For example at 36 degrees, Coors needs 15 PSI, Budweiser needs 12 PSI, Killians Lager needs 13 PSI, and Bass Ale needs 9 PSI. If the pressure is more than 2 PSI out of calibration the carbonation level of the beer will change causing off taste, pouring problems, or both. You should never adjust the beer's gauge pressure to control the flow rate of the beer. The flow rate is controlled by adjusting the length of the beer line.
Pouring problems result when beer goes flat while in the lines or a keg is exposed to too much pressure for too long. These problems can be cured by having enough secondary regulators to run each beer at its ideal gauge pressure and being careful to store the beer at an even temperature."

Steven9026 said:

For what it's worth, here is some info about CO2 pressure and the off flavors.. I'm no expert, but I can tell a big difference in the taste of my beers at different CO2 levels. This was an answer that I got when I question CO2 levels and their effects on the beer.
"When you are using CO2 to dispense beer the beer is sensitive to picking up too much gas (over carbonation), and also loosing gas (going flat). Whatever gas you are using, it always comes into contact with the beer in the keg. The gas entering the keg pushes down on the beer forcing it up a tube and out into the draft system. When using CO2 there is little room for error in deciding how much pressure is needed in the keg. If the temperature of the beer raises 2 degrees, one more pound of pressure is needed. If the temperature of the beer drops 2 degrees, the pressure in the keg needs to be reduced by one pound. Different brands of beer also need different amounts of pressure. For example at 36 degrees, Coors needs 15 PSI, Budweiser needs 12 PSI, Killians Lager needs 13 PSI, and Bass Ale needs 9 PSI. If the pressure is more than 2 PSI out of calibration the carbonation level of the beer will change causing off taste, pouring problems, or both. You should never adjust the beer's gauge pressure to control the flow rate of the beer. The flow rate is controlled by adjusting the length of the beer line.
Pouring problems result when beer goes flat while in the lines or a keg is exposed to too much pressure for too long. These problems can be cured by having enough secondary regulators to run each beer at its ideal gauge pressure and being careful to store the beer at an even temperature."

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Good to know. Thanks.

I don't think you should brew a wit to try and find an off flavor.. An American wheat would probably be better since it uses a clean yeast. Or a light lager...

Don't bake the chiller, boil it. Then put it in sanitizer if you're not quite ready to use it yet. I ALWAYS boil my plate chiller - it's peace of mind. You can't see inside it. What if a blob of hop and break was stuck inside from the last brew? Soaking in star san might not sanitize that blob.....

I second the notion that you should try another water source if you don't like the way your beer tastes. I'd do that before I threw any equipment out, personally. No harm in cleaning everything to the extreme, however, right?

If the brewery guy said it didn't taste funny, maybe you are just being too critical of your beer? If I over-analyze any of my beers, I could probably find some "off-flavor". Is it _bad_ ? Do YOU dislike the way it tastes? Do your friends say it tastes weird? If you are the only one that is finding these off-flavors, I'd wonder about that...

Sounds like you are attributing the overall taste of your beer to some sort of error in your process or technique. The brewer is probably right, your beer is probably free of "off-flavors" in the strictest sense of that word.

Overcarbonation is never good in my opinion, makes for some prickly tastes that coat the mouth, ruining what could be a good homebrew.

Then again, I am not sure that you described the off flavor you think is in your beer, maybe it's subtle and hard to pinpoint because it could be several things together. Underpitching? Some proffessional brewers that I have talked to seem to blame pitching rates as being the strongest cause of that familiar homebrew taste. Other pro brewers contribute alot to water as well. One told me that, when he was a homebrewer, he used to pre-boil all of his water, maybe 10 minutes, to release any chlorine in it. Dont know the science behind that though. Try new water.

StMarcos said:

Don't bake the chiller, boil it. Then put it in sanitizer if you're not quite ready to use it yet. I ALWAYS boil my plate chiller - it's peace of mind. You can't see inside it. What if a blob of hop and break was stuck inside from the last brew? Soaking in star san might not sanitize that blob.....

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Do you store Star-san in the chiller between batches? I've read that Starsan is an acid and can eat metal.

MarzBock said:

Is it _bad_ ? Do YOU dislike the way it tastes? Do your friends say it tastes weird? If you are the only one that is finding these off-flavors, I'd wonder about that...

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No, it's good. Very drinkable, and I've had some great comments from friends and family. I don't think they would tell me that it tasted off though. I'm thinking it's overcarbonation accentuating the perceived (on my part) off flavor.

BlueMonkTrane said:

But, maybe you have developed your technique enough that you are not getting off-favors at all because you have reached consistency in that area, in fact, now it may be time to attribute a beer that you are not satisfied with to a bad recipe or one that could be tweaked to produce a more delicious beer.

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I'm not sure what you mean.

Reelale said:

I'm not sure what you mean.

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I think he means there just may be an ingredient that you just might not "like" and that because it doesn't meet your tastes, you think it might be a process flaw or off flavor.

For example; I just don't like fuggle hops; to me, it makes beer taste like dirt. Doesn't matter how "great" the beer is; if there's fuggles, I taste dirt.

yes. I dont like sweeter IPAs, so I usually reach for a more attenuative yeast when i make them.

AZ_IPA said:

I think he means there just may be an ingredient that you just might not "like" and that because it doesn't meet your tastes, you think it might be a process flaw or off flavor.

For example; I just don't like fuggle hops; to me, it makes beer taste like dirt. Doesn't matter how "great" the beer is; if there's fuggles, I taste dirt.

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BlueMonkTrane said:

yes. I dont like sweeter IPAs, so I usually reach for a more attenuative yeast when i make them.

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I'm not discounting any possibilities at this time. I have noticed this flavor, although not as prounounced as my my last few batches of homebrew, in acouple of commercial beers. One was an IPA from a local brewery, and one was a Affligem Belgian Blonde. Could be I'm picking up some flavors from some varieties of hops.

I wouldn't store anything with star san on it. Not a corrosion issue, but it leaves a film. Best to store items clean and dry. I never do get all the water out of my plate chiller, but I make sure to boil it before use. I also do that with my airstone. Nooks and crannies that you can't see....

My funny tasting brews were due to my plate chiller. I stopped using it and my brews were back to tasting normal. I did everything you were supposed to do to clean, sanitize this plate chiller. Nothing worked. I tossed it out.

Tossed it? !!!!! Boiling should have taken care of any contaminants. Hot PBW should have got out any chunks, so theoretically a starsan dip would be fine after the PBW, but I still boil. Tip most of the hot water out and then use a baking mitt to drop it in starsan till I need it later in the day.

I did all that. Oven baking, PBW, star san, you name it. Whatever got in it, I couldn't get it out. As soon as I used my old immersion chiller, good beer.