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muse435

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I just got a GE 5 Cu Ft freezer and a ranco thermostat that should be arriving shortly. I only have two kegs and don't plan on getting ay more while i'm living in my current apartment. Do I need a fan to circulate the air in the keezer? If so would it need to be always on or only when the compressor kicks on?
 
Running the fan will MOST DEFINITELY chill a warm keg down to temperature. It will chill it faster, because the energy transfer medium (air) is continuously hitting the warm keg, heating up, and then striking the frozen walls of the freezer to be chilled. After the air is chilled, it will return to the warm keg, and chill it.

BUT! When the keg is already cold, you want to keep the heat transfer to a minimum by turning the fan off. When the keg is cold, the only way it will heat up is by warm air hitting it. If the fan is on, then the hot air from the freezer walls will be bashing in to the keg and heating the keg. In the same respect, the cold air that was just insulating the keg is striking the walls of the freezer.

Use the fan to chill warm kegs, and let the freezer, there after, keep the walls of the freezer cool.

*ENGINEERED*
 
Running the fan will MOST DEFINITELY chill a warm keg down to temperature. It will chill it faster, because the energy transfer medium (air) is continuously hitting the warm keg, heating up, and then striking the frozen walls of the freezer to be chilled. After the air is chilled, it will return to the warm keg, and chill it.

BUT! When the keg is already cold, you want to keep the heat transfer to a minimum by turning the fan off. When the keg is cold, the only way it will heat up is by warm air hitting it. If the fan is on, then the hot air from the freezer walls will be bashing in to the keg and heating the keg. In the same respect, the cold air that was just insulating the keg is striking the walls of the freezer.

Use the fan to chill warm kegs, and let the freezer, there after, keep the walls of the freezer cool.

*ENGINEERED*

Using that logic having the fan connected to my thermostat would be the way to go. The compressor will only turn on when the temp in the keezer rises over the threshold. When the compressor is turned off the keg will be cooling the air in the keg just as much as the walls, so when the walls need to be cooled so then does the kegs.
 
connecting a fan to the same circuit as your freezer should drop the rate at which the freezer cycles on, and will also cut the time it is on with each cycle.

i use the bilge fan that tomd found, it works great on about a 5v feed.
 
I installed a 110v AC muffin fan in my freezer and it runs continuously. I have it configured this way to keep the beer lines and taps well cooled along with the kegs. This has been working extremely well for me.
 
I agree with DarkNoonBrewer. I don't think a general keezer fan is all that necessary. When my keezer cycles on, it only stays on for about a minute.

Now, if you direct the fan/airflow into the draft tower, there's a lot of benefit to that.
 
So after thinking about the fluid dynamics of the air and beer i have come to this conclusion. Cool air will sink to the bottom of the keezer while warmer air will rise, there will stratification in the keezer of a few degrees. The same will happen in the keg of beer. This is ok in my opinion as the beer is being pulled off of the bottom of the keg not the top. The beer in the lines will be slightly warmer than the bottom of the keg.

My plan to resolve this is simple. I have two fans in my keg that are on a switch. If I am planning on having people over i will switch the fans on and they will circulate the air creating a more uniform temperature in the keezer. Otherwise I think it is a waste to have them run full time. If I am just going to have one glass myself there is not that big of difference for me to care.

The Way I have my hans set up there are bottles directly under one, This cools the bottles down fast having cold air being blown over them.
 
This will work fine, as long as you place the temperature sensor near the bottom of the freezer. Many people seem to make the mistake of putting it closer to the top, where said warm air rises, and this causes the freezer to work overtime, often freezing the bottoms of the kegs and running through unnecessary energy and compressor life (this is where the fan moving the air top to bottom comes in to effect).

Also, placing the sensor in a liquid will help as it will more accurately show temperature drift, as opposed to a probe exposed to air which can change quickly, when the keezer is opened for instance. Make sure your sensor is designed to be submerged, temperature probes for aquariums are great for this as they are sealed against liquid purposefully.

If you don't care about the beer in the lines and the resulting foam, or the tops of the kegs if you are drinking slowly (really we are talking a couple of degrees at best anyway), then absolutely don't use a fan, but keep the probe placement thing in mind. For me the only place I can put a small container of water is at the top, as the whole things is jammed full of kegs with less than a playing card's width between them.
 
When I finished my Holiday keezer, I had the temp probe dangling in the lid. With the temp set at 43*, the temp differential caused the freezer to run all night and freeze 2 kegs solid.
Definitely place the probe in liquid
 
When I finished my Holiday keezer, I had the temp probe dangling in the lid. With the temp set at 43*, the temp differential caused the freezer to run all night and freeze 2 kegs solid.
Definitely place the probe in liquid

You could have avoided this if the probe was placed near the bottom of the freezer instead of near the top. Probe in liquid or not, if it's still near the top the problem won't go away and may actually get worse. JMO blah, blah, blah
 
This will work fine, as long as you place the temperature sensor near the bottom of the freezer.


Also, placing the sensor in a liquid will help as it will more accurately show temperature drift, as opposed to a probe exposed to air which can change quickly, when the keezer is opened for instance.

I have read a lot of different threads about fans and general keezer design. I really like you suggestion of putting the probe close to the bottom. As for submerging the probe in water I have read that it will cause higher swings in ambient temperature...

*THOUGHT* this came to me while writing this *THOUGHT*
Even if the ambient temperature swings who cares, the specific heat of the probe water will be close to that of beer it will still be a good standard of temperature control. The amount of time that it will take to cool the probe water will effect the kegs and will keep it at a decent constant.
*THOUGHT* this came to me while writing this *THOUGHT*

What do others think of this?
 
You could have avoided this if the probe was placed near the bottom of the freezer instead of near the top. Probe in liquid or not, if it's still near the top the problem won't go away and may actually get worse. JMO blah, blah, blah

Thanks. That was supposed to be my point. Probe middle or near bottom submersed in liquid to prevent compressor cycling.
 
IEven if the ambient temperature swings who cares, the specific heat of the probe water will be close to that of beer it will still be a good standard of temperature control.

I think you are correct here. What matters is the temp of the beer.
This is the case during primary fermentation also - active fermentation can increase the temp inside the beer to levels higher than desired, while air temps outside are ok.
Does a commercial brewery control the temp of their 1000 barrel fermentor by measuring air temp? ;)
 
Thanks. That was supposed to be my point. Probe middle or near bottom submersed in liquid to prevent compressor cycling.

Do some actual testing and you will discover that submerging the probe is not the way to go. I've actually done the testing, so this is not simply speculation.
 
Do some actual testing and you will discover that submerging the probe is not the way to go. I've actually done the testing, so this is not simply speculation.

I am not trying to start an argument, I am really curious how you tested and what the results were?
 
Yes, what is this testing? All I have is lousy anecdotal evidence and observations I've made with the Love probe dangling at the top of the lid and with it in a bomber of water at the bottom of my Holiday. The compressor turns on in my 66* house once every 3 or 4 hrs. I have not measured the temp of the beer, but I'm happy with it and have no foam issues.
You can set your thing up however you want, dude. I'm just sharing what works for me.
 
Yes, what is this testing? All I have is lousy anecdotal evidence and observations I've made with the Love probe dangling at the top of the lid and with it in a bomber of water at the bottom of my Holiday. The compressor turns on in my 66* house once every 3 or 4 hrs. I have not measured the temp of the beer, but I'm happy with it and have no foam issues.
You can set your thing up however you want, dude. I'm just sharing what works for me.

Sorry pal, I can see I'm wasting my time here. Bye.
 
I've also done "some testing" and found quite the opposite, both in my keezer, and in 10 years as a reefkeeper where keeping liquids a stable temperature through controlled heating and cooling is a biological imperative.

Your beer is a liquid, and its capacity to change temperature is vastly different than that of a gas (air) which is influenced by gas exchange with ambient temperatures every time you open the lid. If you are simultaneously measuring another liquid, which will have a similar heat carrying capacity to beer, you will be able to more accurately gauge the temp of the fluids in the kegs. Granted your smaller water vessel will increase in temperature quicker than a 5 gallon keg, but for our purposes the temperature drift will not be noticeable.

I used to be able to explain things more scientifically, when I knew the physics of it, but the rules haven't actually changed since I was in school.

I am sure you have some interesting findings, but your unwillingness to explain or share them when people asked with true curiosity really doesn't lend much credence to your assertion.

As for the other question, I have 3 Ranco ETC controllers that have been in constant use submerged in fluid for years, 2 of them since before the millennium, and have had no problems with them. I don't know the specifics of your model, but I am sure some googling will turn up that info.

I'm not trying to start an argument either, but I am also not the type to throw out a blanket "test it, i did and I am more right than someone else" to be a very valuable teaching tool. I prefer to explain what I do and what led me to do it that way (when sober enough to articulate my response!). I honestly would like to hear about your process and findings... it wouldn't be a waste!
 
If your temperature controller is set to 1 degree F hysteresis, then stick it in water. If set to over 5 degrees, leave it in air. The temp of the beer will not change quickly due to the mass, and the water to a lesser degree. Left in air, the sensor will Change quickly, but you may want that if the hysteresis is high.

My own experience has me with it in air with a fan, and a couple degrees. Works best for my setup!
 
I just did a group buy with friends purchasing these 12 VDC ball bearing fans at $1.49 each. Two for the keezer with one that pulls cold air from the keezer floor discharging into the coffin. Second fan at the coffin base blowing downwards. These are low volume CFM fans just to keep cold air moving on a keezer project. Round flange better to adapt to PVC tubing plus run off a cube power supply.
http://www.goldmine-elec-products.c...tm_campaign=1698280656-Feb23&utm_medium=email
 
Thank You very much for all of the responses. I actually have a BA in physics and understand the concept of fluid dynamics fairly well. I also understand the concept of heat exchange of the fluids. I have never doubted the idea that the specific heat of beer will result in drastic fluctuation in the temperature of the beer. As long as you keep the lid closed you will have cold beer. What made me wonder was more about efficiency. I know that if I have multiple fans running full time in the keezer i will be able to keep a more uniform temperature, as well as cool the beer quicker when the compressor is running. Also I understand that keeping the probe submerged will allow a buffer zone so that the compressor does not have to kick on after every time the lid opens. If the compressor does not kick on to compensate for the change in air temp the warm air molecules will hit the sides of the kegs and whatever else is in the keezer speeding up those molecules, transferring energy, and cooling down themselves. All of this I know to be fact, what I was wondering was real life experience.

I know that having beer at a constant temperature is best (IMO), but is it worth going through all of this trouble to get it. What i mean to say if you have your compressor kicking on every 10 min and turning of moments later you will destroy the compressor and increase your electric bill due to the starting of the motor, when they are least efficient. But on the other extreme if you only have your compressor kicking on once every six hours the fluctuation of internal temperatures of the system will be too unacceptable.

The answer, IMO, is some where in the middle, a happy medium. I was/am looking for advise from real world experience. I understand i will have an electric bill, that my keezer will eventually die, and that no matter what I do I'll still drink the beer.

Thus far I have decided not to run my fan full time, unless i have company over, otherwise it will be controlled by my ETC. As far as the probe in water vs air. I am still deciding, I have read many excellent reasons of why placing the probe in water is the way to go. However ever time I try and read something to the contrary someone else jumps in and starts an argument, and rationality seams to be thrown out of them window as though they are attacking the person, not the idea.

I would still love to hear reasoning of why the probe in water is good, but as of right now I am more curious about it hanging in the air. If you have a different opinion to that of another post, can you please hold it to yourself.

And remember "arguing on the internet is like winning in the special olympics ...in the end your still retarted." We are all on this site because we like to brew beer. :ban:
 
Didnt realize they gave Bachelor of Arts in Physics! :p

I have a minor in Physics with a BS in Applied Math...and I think I use about 1.5% of my education at my current job. What a waste!:drunk:

:off: I was typing fast, I have a BS in physics with a minor in math. My current job i use 0% of my major. I could be wrong but I think there was a way to get a BA in physics at my school, but it seamed quite dumb to go that rout. Now I is Edumacated.
 
I put my probe in a large piece of aluminum with a hole drilled in it for a tight fit. This works well to keep the probe temp more constant and more closely matched to the beer temp. I should mention however that my keezer is of the upright variety so everytime I open the door I'm probably getting bigger swings in the air temp inside vs. you guys with the chest type.

BTW I have a BS in Mech Engineering. Not that I remember any of it.
 
:off: I was typing fast, I have a BS in physics with a minor in math. My current job i use 0% of my major. I could be wrong but I think there was a way to get a BA in physics at my school, but it seamed quite dumb to go that rout. Now I is Edumacated.

Sweet, we have the same degree, now i run a coffee shop... also 0% utilization!

My fan is on the same circuit as my compressor. It tends to turn on about as often as it did before I added the fan, but doesn't stay on as long, which makes sense to me.

as to the ETC, I shared that my 3 ETC's are, but his mmv.

i've got a nice jolly pumpkin la roja, hoprfully your friday is going just as smashingly.

moar beer!
 
So after running my keezer for a little over a month now i have some observations. Originally I had it set up so that when the compressor kicked on so would the fan, the compressor. The compressor would rarely kick on and the kegged beer was fine. It was set at 40+5 deg F, and my sensor is in a copper tube filled w/ silicone @ the bottom of the keezer. The problem I was having was with the bottled beer I keep in there as well, on the compressor hump. The top layer of bottles is only a few inches from the lid and always seamed warm. When I put a thermometer on the lid, I noticed a twenty deg F difference between the top and bottom. For me and my set up I now run the fan all of the time. If I ever just have kegs in the keezer I will switch the fan back to the same circuit as the compressor.

Just my 2 cents :mug:
 

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