Lager, Dimethyl Sulfide, Ugh!

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I'm getting DMS flavors in my ready-to-rack vienna lager that I can eith er attribute to a less than rolling 90 boil or a slow run-off into my plate chiller because of some clogging issues. It was my second 10 gallon batch, but my first 10 gallon lager and definately this recipe (below) has the most DMS pre-cursor I have ever brewed with.

These are all problems I will address in my next attempt.

What I'd like to know is...
1) What can be done post fermantation?
2) Will time fix this?

I plan on cold conditioning this for some time and perhaps use a clarifier.
(Nothing to lose now, right)


Recipie:

Vienna Lager
A ProMash Recipe Report
BJCP Style and Style Guidelines
-------------------------------
09-B German Amber Lager, Vienna Lager
Min OG: 1.046 Max OG: 1.052
Min IBU: 18 Max IBU: 30
Min Clr: 8 Max Clr: 12 Color in SRM, Lovibond
Recipe Specifics
----------------
Batch Size (Gal): 6.00 Wort Size (Gal): 6.00
Total Grain (Lbs): 12.00
Anticipated OG: 1.052 Plato: 12.81
Anticipated SRM: 11.8
Anticipated IBU: 23.4
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes
Pre-Boil Amounts
----------------
Evaporation Rate: 12.00 Percent Per Hour
Pre-Boil Wort Size: 7.32 Gal
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.042 SG 10.59 Plato

Grain/Extract/Sugar
% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
33.3 4.00 lbs. Pilsener Germany 1.038 2
25.0 3.00 lbs. Vienna Malt Germany 1.037 3
33.3 4.00 lbs. Munich Malt Germany 1.037 8
8.3 1.00 lbs. CaraMunich Malt Belgium 1.033 75
Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.

Hops
Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
0.90 oz. Hallertauer Pellet 6.00 22.0 60 min.
0.30 oz. Hallertauer Pellet 6.00 1.5 10 min.

Yeast
-----
White Labs WLP838 Southern German Lager
__________________
 
I'd be interested to see how this turns out. I brew 10 gal munich helles (with lots of German Pilsen malt) pretty much every other batch. I'd like to think that extended lagering will help. Those yeast aren't doing nothing, even at 34dF. On my last batch, I did a 75 min. boil, lagered for a month, and don't detect any DMS, unless I can't tell what it tastes like, despite the cooked corn references.
 
Generally, if you keep your boil vigorous and cool rapidly, DMS levels will be appropriate for style. However, the DMS level may still be too high for your taste. If you keg your beer, you can artificially scrub out DMS using CO2. This is best done before carbonating. If you have a lager, allow it to warm to room temperature first. Then, switch around the ball-lock fittings on your keg so they are backwards. Hook up the long dip tube (labeled "out") to the CO2 tank. Prop open the pressure relief valve. Then carefully allow CO2 to bubble through the beer. Slow down if it starts to foam out. Occasionally sniff the gas as it exits the keg. You should be able to smell the DMS at first, and then notice it fading with time. After the level has dropped, switch the ball locks back to their usual configuration. Then carbonate as usual

Source: http://www.picobrewery.com/askarchive/dms.htm
 
olllllo said:
I'm getting DMS flavors in my ready-to-rack vienna lager that I can eith er attribute to a less than rolling 90 boil or a slow run-off into my plate chiller because of some clogging issues. It was my second 10 gallon batch, but my first 10 gallon lager and definately this recipe (below) has the most DMS pre-cursor I have ever brewed with.

These are all problems I will address in my next attempt.

What I'd like to know is...
1) What can be done post fermantation?
2) Will time fix this?

I plan on cold conditioning this for some time and perhaps use a clarifier.
(Nothing to lose now, right)

nothing I know of, and maybe.

While some DMS is acceptable in some light lagers (usually from the use of 6 row malt), there is really nothing that you can do to get it out now. Right now you just need to ask yourself if you feel the DMS levels are acceptable for your personal consumption., as well as the style.
How long did it take you to cool the 10 gallons of wort to pitching temps?

If you enjoyed a nice rolling boil then you likely boiled off enough DMS (90 minute boil should work), and if chilled the wort quick enough (within 50 minutes IMHO).

Have you considered it as the result of a bacterial infection?
 
I have had DMS on a couple occasions. Once with a Kolsch and once with my helles. In both cases, it seemed that cold storage helped. It is practically undetectable in the helles now after 4 months cold.

But the CO2 scrubbing method is interesting, look forward to hearing your results.
 
Glibbidy said:
How long did it take you to cool the 10 gallons of wort to pitching temps?

If you enjoyed a nice rolling boil then you likely boiled off enough DMS (90 minute boil should work), and if chilled the wort quick enough (within 50 minutes IMHO).

Have you considered it as the result of a bacterial infection?

I'd have to look back at my notes, but reviewing the day in my mind, it was about an hour to cool, which is waaaay longer than I am used to.

Bacterial infection is not likely, but I'm not sure that anyone can rule it out.
No sulpherous or egg smells.

I'll be taking another sample tonight to see if I can nail down the degree of intensity.

I'm going forward with the picobrew recomendation and I will post my results.
 
I too am interested in hearing how this CO2 method works out.

It does seem that time can help eliinate some off flavors in beers. So perhaps the CO2 method, coupled with a few months of lagering and you could be out of the woods.:)
 
I can't say I've ever dealt with DMS but then I've only used Pils malt in large quantities just once. What temp was the sample you tasted? Was it well above normal serving temp? If so, it might become more subtle.
 
Bring a sample down to 45F and see if you can detect it. I have a blonde that has a slight bit too much diacytel and it is totally drinkable at my typical serving temps of 42F.
 
I hope that CO2 scrub works out for you. I have heard of such an option, but never a first-hand report about it. If it doesn't work, and extended lagering period might.

Off-topic for a moment, I am always surprised at how Vienna recipes tend to have so little Vienna malt in them. I've even seen some with no Vienna. I always understood that Vienna was the primary malt in a Vienna lager, oddly enough, and that some Munich and a little medium crystal malt added some complexity and color. However, I rarely see a recipe with more than 25% Vienna.

Now, back to our regularly schedule thread.


TL
 
I hear ya, TL. This is the bookend to a prior attempt that was almost exclusively vienna. This one was supposed to satisy a SWMBO request for a more Negra Modelo Vienna.
 
The washing with CO2 should work. The warmer the beer the better. The boiling point of DMS is around body temperature.

Definately your long chill time is to blame for the DMS.

Kai
 
olllllo said:
I hear ya, TL. This is the bookend to a prior attempt that was almost exclusively vienna. This one was supposed to satisy a SWMBO request for a more Negra Modelo Vienna.

Gotcha. You need say nothing more.

With all that DMS, you just might have fulfilled her request. Be careful what you wish for, dear SWMBO! :D


TL
 
So, while we're discussing DMS and cool time... what temp does one want to reach quickly? For a lager, using an immersion chiller, it's those lower end temps that take so long. That is to say, the time it takes for temp reduction increases with decreasing temp. So, is there a safe zone for DMS?... say, if you can get to 80 quickly, you're OK as far as DMS from slow cooling?
 
menschmaschine said:
So, while we're discussing DMS and cool time... what temp does one want to reach quickly? For a lager, using an immersion chiller, it's those lower end temps that take so long. That is to say, the time it takes for temp reduction increases with decreasing temp. So, is there a safe zone for DMS?... say, if you can get to 80 quickly, you're OK as far as DMS from slow cooling?

I have always heard 140F.
 
:off: I'm sorry to go off topic again here, when you say to cool it quickly, how quickly is quickly? Are we talking 20-30 min?
 
I used flaked corn (1.5 lbs) for the first time this year in a light lager and when I transfered the beer to the keg, the sample had a definite cooked corn taste. I prime with sugar to carbonate. After 1 week in the 50's I moved the keg into the garage to lager (upper 30's). I hemmed and hawed in my head about the corn taste. I finally gave in and brought the keg in and put it upstairs (~70F) and let it sit there for a week, then back to the garage. I pulled a small sample this weekend (6 weeks since kegging) and I didn't really notice any corn taste. Whether the time at 70F was responsible or not, I couldn't say, but it did definitely go away.
 
jay075j said:
:off: I'm sorry to go off topic again here, when you say to cool it quickly, how quickly is quickly? Are we talking 20-30 min?

In reference to DMS formation, faster is better. With my IC I can get below 140F in a couple minutes (5 max.). Cooling to pitching temps takes a little longer.
 
Faster is better, but a good 90 minute rolling boil is the key. That should reduce the dms levels by 3/4, and carbonation should take care of the rest.
 
Kaiser said:
The warmer the beer the better. The boiling point of DMS is around body temperature.

Well I can get it up to 100 in the garage. You think no ill effects from that?

I could pull off a half gallon and experiment.
 
olllllo said:
I could pull off a half gallon and experiment.

Thy this. it should also make the bubbling-though less messy and I don't want to be blamed for making you loose a full keg of beer.

Kai
 
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