WARNING! for Ultimate Brewery Cleaner users

So I brewed a few batches yesterday and during the clean up phase I decided to give the UBC a shot. Well it didn't work out as planed. After the complete cleaning cycle of the system. I found this problem. The UBC pitted all my copper and (I don't know if you can see in the picture) it discolored my stainless paddle and also discolored my grant and a few other pieces of the system. I am not sure if the chiller is a total loss yet. I am going to do a complete PBW (the stuff I normally use) wash of the system today or tomorrow and see if I can salvage this stuff. I don’t think the stainless is toast, but I may have to replace all the copper.
Just a heads up guys.
Anyone have this problem before?
Cheers
JJ



Just as a disclaimer this is in no way anything against Forrest or AHB you can get this stuff anywhere

another pict

Holy Cow! Did you use it at the recommended dosage? That is wicked....

My condolences.

Boerderij_Kabouter said:

Holy Cow! Did you use it at the recommended dosage? That is wicked....

My condolences.

Click to expand...

yep. 1 TBLS per gallon of wash water

It looks like you threw your IC out of your car going 60+

Oh that sucks!!!

I'd try an acid first. Put your chiller in your boil pot and just cover the coils. Add about a cup of white vinegar and warm it up to about 150*. Let it soak a bit, check it often. If the water turns green at all, remove it right away.

Rinse with plenty of fresh water.

I had similar pits/deposits in a keg I let soak with generic Oxyclean. An acid wash took it back off.

That sucks Jay. I've soaked my immersion chiller in hot PBW overnight before without any problems. I cannot see what it did to the SS mash paddle in the pic though.

EdWort said:

That sucks Jay. I've soaked my immersion chiller in hot PBW overnight before without any problems. I cannot see what it did to the SS mash paddle in the pic though.

Click to expand...

PBW is what I normally use. (is PBW and UBC) the same stuff?
ED, It turned the stainless blue

Jaybird said:

PBW is what I normally use. (is PBW and UBC) the same stuff?

Click to expand...

Not to my knowledge. Here's what 5 Star has to say about PBW

BENEFITS

• Replaces Caustic Soda cleaners
• Effective at All Temperatures
• Free Rinsing
• Safe on Polycarbonate surfaces
• Safe to handle
• Generates 4 - 5% Oxygen
• Non-hazardous & Non-corrosive
• Excellent hard water tolerance
• Removes protein soil and staining, baked on carbon, and fatty acids

DESCRIPTION
P.B.W. is a buffered alkaline detergent that has been proven to be more than an
effective substitute for caustic soda cleaners. Because of its unique formulation of
buffers and mild alkalis, it is safe on skin as well as soft metals such as stainless steel,
aluminum, and on plastics. P.B.W. uses active oxygen to penetrate carbon or protein
soils and is not effected by hard water. The oxygen also helps in reducing B.O.D. and
C.O.D. in wastewater, which is an added environmental benefit.

P.B.W. has been formulated as a C.I.P. cleaner and is very effective in removing protein
soils found on brew kettles, fermenters, conditioning tanks, filters and all packaging
areas. The concentrations to remove these soils are typically in the 1% range.
However, due to soil and water conditions this concentration will vary. To help in hard
water areas P.B.W. has been formulated with enough chelators to tolerate hard water
over 17 grains.

P.B.W. is an excellent choice as a soak cleaner because it does not require
excessive heat as do most caustic based cleaners. This product has cleaned
brass and copper filters, and industrial aluminum surfaces successfully.

I think I will contact Forrest and find out if his UBC is PBW just in another package. I use PBW all the time on stuff (Copper included) and haven't ever seen anything like this. Like I said it turned my stainless paddle blue. Whats up with that?
JJ

I am the person that came up with the formulation for Ultimate Brewery Wash and Forrest has let me know of this incident. This product was tested for a couple of years before it came to market - I don't have an explanation at this time. We are looking into it and want to let people know this is not being ignored.

Wow, that sucks Jay! Man, I don't know how you're keeping it together...I'd be extremely pissed. Good equipment is not cheap and is hard to get set up right, and your brewery is top notch. I hope these guys make it right!

But, while you seem to have some wicked stuff on your hands...how about doing some experiments with the recommended dosage? Maybe mix up a gallon of solution and see what it does to a small section of copper tubing? Could be a fun experiment, or at least some good documentation of what sounds like a faulty product.

Yikes, that sucks. I was about to order some too. Maybe a bad lot?

Jay - could anything else have been in your bucket of cleaner that might have caused a reaction to the UBC?

I haven't used the sample that I got a whole lot, but it didn't seem much different than the other oxygen based cleaners I have used, so I am really surprised to see it do that to copper and more so the stainless.

Ya PBW is great...

Man that would make me ... Not saying that they should replace your gear but I hope this gets worked out.

Maybe you will need to send some of the wash back for testing.

We have sold a ton of this without any complaints and want to get to the bottom of this. I'll provide our UPS account number to Jaybird so we can test this sample to see what is going on. This is not being taken lightly.

Infidel said:

We have sold a ton of this without any complaints and want to get to the bottom of this. I'll provide our UPS account number to Jaybird so we can test this sample to see what is going on. This is not being taken lightly.

Click to expand...

I am impressed with this customer service. There might be ten companies in the whole world that would take this level of support.

Impressive.

I almost used some of this for the first time yesterday. I think I'll wait for Infidel's evaluation before I do.

Thanks for bringing this to our attention.

Desert Monkey said:

I am impressed with this customer service. There might be ten companies in the whole world that would take this level of support.

Impressive.

Click to expand...

I agree. S&it happens, it's how you respond to problems that makes a difference. Companies that admit to the problem and act to correct it are scarce these days. Hopefully, it's an isolated problem. I also hope JJ's equipment isn't ruined (or gets replaced).

Just to let everyone know. Forrest and infidel have both sent me PM's. This batch that I have is going back to them for some testing. I too am glad that they are taking this serious (as we all knew that they would.) I don’t really see why I won't be able to sand out the pits and continue to use the chiller. IF not it’s not the end of the world. Equipment comes and goes. It's all going to fail at some point and have to be replaced. PITA ya, but nothing to get pissed over and definitely not the end of the world.

JJ

This appears to be an isolated incident. We have sent out a literal ton of this product with nothing but good feedback.

Are there any people out there who have used Ultimate Brewery Wash on their copper wort chiller several times and have had this problem as well?

Forrest

One of the reasons I didn't use it was because I hadn't really researched the product to find out how to use it properly. I had some BLC from Austin Homebrew Supply so I used that instead.

Maybe Infidel and Forrest can give us a bit of an overview of the product and proper usage beyond what's on the label? Will it clean beerstone?

I have some kegs that have been soaking in UBC for about a week now. I just emptied one out and their was no discoloration in the least. Is there a lot number or somethign that we should be on the lookout for?

Here is the composition:

Sodium Metasilicate 40%
Sodium Percarbonate 30%
Sodium Carbonate 30%

MATERIAL SAFETY DATA SHEET BrewVint™ Ultimate Brewery Cleaner
Page 1 of 4
For Chemical Emergency, Spill, Leak, Fire, Exposure or Accident,
CALL INFOTRAC – Day or Night 1-800-535-5053
1. CHEMICAL PRODUCT AND COMPANY IDENTIFICATION
Product Name: BrewVint™ Ultimate Brewery Cleaner
Synonyms: Inorganic salts mixture
Company ID: Austin Homebrew Supply
7951 Burnet Rd.
Austin, TX 78757
Phone #s: Emergency Phone Number:
INFOTRAC (24-hr/7 days): 1-800-535-5053
For Medical Emergency - Call 1-800-535-5053
Date: 10/30/2006 Supersedes: New
2. COMPOSITION INFORMATION ON INGREDIENTS
Component CAS Reg. No. %
Sodium Metasilicate 10213-79-3 40%
Sodium Percarbonate 15630-89-4 30%
Sodium Carbonate 497-19-6 30%
See Section 8 for Personal Protection (PPE).
3. HAZARDS IDENTIFICATION
Emergency Overview:
Appearance & Odor: White powder with little odor.
Warning Statements: The product’s main routes of entry are through skin contact, eye contact
and inhalation of the dust. Product is basic and can cause irritation and possible burns.
Product will cause irritation to mucous membranes and the gastrointestinal tract if swallowed.
Product can cause damage to eyes. Product will cause dryness and irritation of the skin.
Product if inhaled may cause irritation to nasal and respiratory passages. Product decomposes
in a fire situation to hydrogen peroxide and oxygen. Product will react with aluminum and
magnesium metal.
Potential Adverse Health Effects:
Eye Contact: May Cause eye irritation and damage.
Skin Contact: May cause dryness and irritation of the skin
Ingestion: Product will irritate the mucous membrane if swallowed.
Inhalation: Product inhaled may cause irritation to nasal and respiratory passages.
4. FIRST AID MEASURES
If in Eyes: Flush with cool water for 15 minutes. Remove contact lenses, if applicable and
continue flushing for 15 minutes. Hold eyelids apart to rinse the entire surface of
the eyes and lids. Seek medical attention if irritation persists.
If on Skin: Wash skin with soap and water. Seek medical attention if irritation persists.
If Swallowed: Do not induce vomiting, dilute with 1 to 2 glasses of water. Never give anything
to a person who is unconscious. Seek medical attention immediately.
If Inhaled: Remove to fresh air. If not breathing, call 9-1-1. Seek medical immediately.
MATERIAL SAFETY DATA SHEET BrewVint™ Ultimate Brewery Cleaner
Page 2 of 4
5. FIRE FIGHTING MEASURES
Flash Point: Non-flammable. Flammable Limits: Not established.
Extinguishing Media: Considered non-combustible, use medium appropriate to surrounding fire,
water spray or fog, foam, carbon dioxide or dry chemical.
Special Fire Fighting Procedures: Provide for the protection of the employees and residents:
Notify local authorities that firemen should wear self-contained breathing apparatus with full
protecting clothing. If the product gets into a fire situation it is a source of free oxygen which is
an oxidizer.
See section 11 for toxicological data.
6. ACCIDENTAL RELEASE MEASURES
In Cases of Spill or Leak:
For small spills, wear proper personal protective equipment, sweep up and place into plastic
drum.
For large spill on roadside, contact emergency responders and secure area from anyone getting
contaminated with the mixture. Contact INFOTRAC 1-800-535-5053
7. HANDLING AND STORAGE
Use polyethylene or plastic containers. Store packaged product in a cool, dry place away from
everyone; children, food, feed and domestic animals. Prevent eating, drinking, tobacco usage,
and cosmetic application in areas where there is a potential for exposure to the material.
A lw a y s w a s h t h o r o u g hly after handling.
8. EXPOSURE CONTROLS / PERSONAL PROTECTION
Eye Protection: Chemical splash-proof goggles.
Skin Contact: To avoid skin contact, wear clean coveralls or longsleeved
shirt, and long pants. Wear chemical resistant
boots. Wear chemical resistant gloves.
Follow manufacturer’s instructions for cleaning and
maintaining PPE. If no such instructions for washing,
use detergent and hot water. Keep and wash PPE
separately from other laundry.
Respiratory Protection: Suggest wear NIOSH approved dust mask.
Ventilation Protection: Provide adequate ventilation.
9. PHYSICAL AND CHEMICAL PROPERTIES
Appearance: White powder
Odor: Little odor
Solubility: Complete in water
Specific Gravity (H20) is 1.0): Greater than water
pH: Basic range (Alkaline)
Note: These physical data are typical values based on material tested but may vary
from sample to sample. Typical values should not be construed as a
guaranteed analysis of any specific lot or as specification items.
MATERIAL SAFETY DATA SHEET BrewVint™ Ultimate Brewery Cleaner
Page 3 of 4
10. STABILITY AND REACTIVITY
Chemical Stability: Stable
Conditions to Avoid: Excessive heat, avoid aluminum and magnesium
metals.
Materials to avoid: Strong reducing agents, acids, aluminum and
magnesium metal
Hazardous Decomposition
Products: Mixture can produce hydrogen peroxide, oxygen and
product reacts with aluminum and magnesium metal.
11. TOXICOLOGICAL INFORMATION
Routes of entry: Eye, skin contact, inhalation and ingestion.
Eye Irritation: Strong irritation
Skin Irritation: Mild irritation
Inhalation: Strong irritation
Ingestion Strong irritation
Carcinogenicity: Not by listed by NTP, OSHA or IARC.
12. ECOLOGICAL INFORMATION
Not determined. Product is harmful to humans if swallowed.
Environmental fate not determined.
13. DISPOSAL CONSIDERATIONS
Steps to be taken if material is released or spilled.
Wear proper PPE found in section 8.
Use extreme caution; a person must be adequately trained to deal with a spill of this mixture.
Precautions to be taken in handling and storing
Protect from excessive heat. Mixture must be stored in a cool dry place.
14. TRANSPORTATION INFORMATION
Follow the precautions indicated in the Handling and Storage Section, Section 7 of this MSDS.
DOT Classification: Not regulated by US DOT by highway
IATA/ICAO Shipping Description: Call INFOTRAC for proper classification if shipping by air.
IMO Shipping Description: Call INFOTRAC for proper classification if shipping by water.
Marine Pollutant: Not a Marine Pollutant
Reportable Quantity: No RQs
MATERIAL SAFETY DATA SHEET BrewVint™ Ultimate Brewery Cleaner
Page 4 of 4
15. REGULATORY INFORMATION
SARA Hazard Notification/Reporting
Immediate Y Fire N Sudden Release of Pressure Y
Delayed Y Reactive Y
SARA Title 313, Toxic chemicals: None
Section 302-304 (30 CFR 350): None
Extremely hazardous substance (EHS): None
SARA/OSHA Hazardous chemical reporting quantity: None.
RCRA Hazardous waste: None
Prop 65: Not listed
EUC
Safety phrases: S22, S26, S27, S36, S37, S39
Risk Phrases: R20, R21, R22, R34
16. OTHER
National Fire Protection Association (NFPA)
Hazardous Materials Identification System (HMIS)
NFPA HMIS
0 Least
2 Health 1 Slight 2 Health
0 Flammability 2 Moderate 0 Flammability
- 1 Instability 3 High 1 Reactivity
4 Severe H PPE
Prepared by: Dennis E. Belau Reviewed by: Jeff Schultz
Although the information and recommendations set forth herein (hereinafter "Information") are
presented in good faith and believed to be correct as of the date hereof, Austin Homebrew
Supply (hereafter “Company&#8221 makes no representations as to the completeness or accuracy
thereof. Information is supplied upon the condition that the persons receiving same will make
their own determination as to its suitability for their purposes prior to use. In no event will
company be responsible for damages of any nature whatsoever resulting from the use of or
reliance upon Information. NO REPRESENTATIONS OR WARRANTIES, EITHER
EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR
PURPOSE OR OF ANY OTHER NATURE ARE MADE HEREUNDER WITH RESPECT TO
INFORMATION OR THE PRODUCT TO WHICH INFORMATION REFERS.

Jay sorry about your equipment but my hats off to AHB!

We will take care of Jay for sure.

Forrest

Someone left out the metasilicate on that batch and might have added something else instead. No metasilicate = corrosion.

But it still shouldnt have been that bad. Did they possibly mix it up with salt instead of metasilicate?

Jaybird said:

PBW is what I normally use. (is PBW and UBC) the same stuff?
ED, It turned the stainless blue

Click to expand...

Dude... a blue mash paddle????? That make it all worth it right there :rockin:

I am starting a boil on the chiller right now. If that dosen't do it. I will let the water cool down and do a PBW wash and rinse.

My guess is it will all magically come off and it was a freak reaction to the chemicals the gubment puts in our water.

So I just got done w/ a complete brewery PBW wash and rinse (What a pain in the A$$ my pump ran for about 1 1/2 hours non stop those pumps are the bomb!!) I was able to get all the blue out of the stainless (Thank GOD) what the hell was all that? But I think ALL the copper is a lost cause my IC looks like.....uh I don’t know WIERD is all I can say. All the weird color and what looked like pits are gone, but I am not sure I will use this IC again? Anyway at least all the stainless has been salvaged, I think anyway.
This pack of UBC is going back to the creator tomorrow. It will be interesting to see what the issue was?
Cheers
JJ

FWIW, I got some UBC a while back. It worked well on all my equipment, even my IC, except my kettle. It looked like it pitted the bottom where the little granules had landed. I took some Bar Keepers Friend and a scrubby pad to it and it was fine, but I haven't used UBC since.

Can you use BKF on copper?

Jaybird said:

Can you use BKF on copper?

Click to expand...

I do all the time. It makes it look like new.

I'm actually looking at the can right now, and it has copper on the label. Probably worth a shot.

BarleyWater said:

I do all the time. It makes it look like new.

I'm actually looking at the can right now, and it has copper on the label. Probably worth a shot.

Click to expand...

I am not really too worried about what it looks like, (I do need to get some of that stuff though!) I am more concerned about what is imbedded into my copper IC and the inside of my copper transfer lines.

Jaybird said:

I am not really too worried about what it looks like, (I do need to get some of that stuff though!) I am more concerned about what is imbedded into my copper IC and the inside of my copper transfer lines.

Click to expand...

If you can clean your IC to be visually fine then I wouldn't worry about it...copper transfer lines I would replace unless you know someone with a fiber optic camera that can verify the insides aren't all messed up.

What size chiller was it?

Forrest

Austinhomebrew said:

What size chiller was it?

Forrest

Click to expand...

It's one that I made. It's a monster 1/2" soft copper by 50'
The chiller is going to be fine. I started playing around last night w/ some of those gray scrub pads the ones I use to clean stainless. It's going to look like new after I am done.

EdWort said:

Not to my knowledge. Here's what 5 Star has to say about PBW

BENEFITS

• Replaces Caustic Soda cleaners
• Effective at All Temperatures
• Free Rinsing
• Safe on Polycarbonate surfaces
• Safe to handle
• Generates 4 - 5% Oxygen
• Non-hazardous & Non-corrosive
• Excellent hard water tolerance
• Removes protein soil and staining, baked on carbon, and fatty acids

DESCRIPTION
P.B.W. is a buffered alkaline detergent that has been proven to be more than an
effective substitute for caustic soda cleaners. Because of its unique formulation of
buffers and mild alkalis, it is safe on skin as well as soft metals such as stainless steel,
aluminum, and on plastics. P.B.W. uses active oxygen to penetrate carbon or protein
soils and is not effected by hard water. The oxygen also helps in reducing B.O.D. and
C.O.D. in wastewater, which is an added environmental benefit.

P.B.W. has been formulated as a C.I.P. cleaner and is very effective in removing protein
soils found on brew kettles, fermenters, conditioning tanks, filters and all packaging
areas. The concentrations to remove these soils are typically in the 1% range.
However, due to soil and water conditions this concentration will vary. To help in hard
water areas P.B.W. has been formulated with enough chelators to tolerate hard water
over 17 grains.

P.B.W. is an excellent choice as a soak cleaner because it does not require
excessive heat as do most caustic based cleaners. This product has cleaned
brass and copper filters, and industrial aluminum surfaces successfully.

Click to expand...

I question whether PBW is really safe with polycarbonate. I was soaking keg parts in PBW and hot water in this Food Container, Round, Polycarbonate, Clear, 22 qt. I left it overnight and the next day I found that the container had cracked and split open along the bottom. I use the container regularly and I'm sure it was sound before I put the PBW in it. I'm not certain the PBW caused the failure, but I am sure the container was sound before I put the PBW in it, and I can't think of any other explanation. I won't be putting PBW in anything with polycarbonate again, just to be safe. It was an expensive container.

(Note to PBW manufacturer... affected, not effected in this case: "... is not affected by hard water".)