De-alcoholizing beer (Belgian Wit)

I brewed a Belgian Wit (http://hopville.com/recipe/633652/witbier-recipes/witbier-ii) a few weeks ago, and we kegged it yesterday. I put a gallon of it in a glass jug to make my pregnant wife some Non-Alcohol beer.

I heated it to 78C (165-170F) for about 20 minutes, until I couldn't smell much alcohol in the steam. I also steeped some coriander (did not have any bitter orange peel left) for about 10 minutes to replace any flavour lost by the heating. I added 1oz of corn sugar for the yeast to consume for carbonation.

I cooled the wort, took a gravity reading (increased from 1.014 to 1.022 after boiling of alcohol), then poured it into sanitized bottles. I poured in some T-58 yeast to carbonate.

I'll update in a few weeks when the results are carbonated and consumed!

Mike

Sound like an interesting trial.

You didn't add any additional sugars, right? Just hoping there's enough fermentables in that 1.022 post-boil gravity for the new yeast to munch on to carbonate?

Can't wait to hear how this comes out!

Presumably you believe alcohol in moderation is unhealthy during pregnancy. You should know that in every case I am aware of that someone has tried to remove alcohol at home and verified the result analytically, they were never very successful (maybe a 50% reduction).

The priming sugar will add about another half percent. So you probably have a 3% beer on your hands. If it is important to you that it be lower than that, have it tested analytically.

Nice, I'd like very much to see how this turns out. I've been wanting to make a brew for my dad who has been 32 years dry. It's sad to not share a brew with the old man.

separating water and alcohol is not as straight forward as adding heat and only the alcohol is removed. if you are really concerned you may be better off buying odules.

Thanks for the advice. This beer is a treat for my wife, not something to consume regularly. I'm well aware of the effects of alcohol on unborn fetuses.

The OG was 1.050, FG was 1.014, then after the treatment, it was 1.022. I did add 1oz of priming sugar to carbonate.

Amity said:

Thanks for the advice. This beer is a treat for my wife, not something to consume regularly. I'm well aware of the effects of alcohol on unborn fetuses.

The OG was 1.050, FG was 1.014, then after the treatment, it was 1.022. I did add 1oz of priming sugar to carbonate.

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Also, now that I think about it, my post treatment gravity may be skewed because I used a refractometer for the reading...

This is awsome, Homercidal and I are starting a subforum on here for experimenting with low/no alcohol brewing techniques. There's another guy on here running some experiments with vacuum pumps as well. Looking forward to hearing the results.

You don't know how much alcohol is left. There are probably higher alcohols that boil at a higher temperature than 78 F.

Zero alcohol during pregnancy = zero alcohol. Not worth the risk. You don't know what is in the remaining liquor.

alcohol is very flamable; boiling off the alcohol is extremely dangerous.

Calder said:

You don't know how much alcohol is left. There are probably higher alcohols that boil at a higher temperature than 78 F.

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And the other alcohols are usually in negligible amounts. Ethanol boiling point is 78*C so 20 minutes at that heat should take out the vast majority.

Calder said:

Zero alcohol during pregnancy = zero alcohol. Not worth the risk. You don't know what is in the remaining liquor.

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Many studies have brought to light that fact that small amounts of alcohol is not only okay but actually beneficial.... 1/4 - 1/2 glass of red wine a day or every other day is the standard so, equivalently, 1/4 - 1/2 a 12oz bottle of average strength beer is okay. So I'd think a pint of beer that has been heated to ethanol boiling point for 20 minutes is more than okay.

Calder said:

alcohol is very flamable; boiling off the alcohol is extremely dangerous.

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At a concentration of 4.8%? Dangerous maybe if you're in a tiny, non-ventilated room while smoking

Reno_eNVy_446 said:

And the other alcohols are usually in negligible amounts. Ethanol boiling point is 78*C so 20 minutes at that heat should take out the vast majority.

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Does not work that way in practice. Nobody has ever removed the vast majority of alcohol from beer in a home setting and verified it analytically. I'll wait for a counterexample, but I won't be holding my breath while I wait.

Mary Beth Raines, who is a medical researcher by trade and used to own a yeast supply company, attempted several methods and each failed. She was able to do with in small quantities with lab equipment but never with reasonable quantities in a kitchen. What should happen and what does happen are often different. Personally I would verify my success analytically before giving a product to someone who is restricting alcohol consumption for medical reasons.

At a concentration of 4.8%? Dangerous maybe if you're in a tiny, non-ventilated room while smoking

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Aren't we supposed to believe that the vapor is mostly alcohol?

remilard said:

Aren't we supposed to believe that the vapor is mostly alcohol?

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Very true... but think about doing it in a kitchen and (if you're smart about it) the hood vent on. The amounts in the air would be sooooo small that it wouldn't even be able to ignite (see: oxygen and stoichiometry)

Unbelievable.

Let's not delve into a huge debate on alcohol and pregnancy. Thanks.

"It is a common misconception that in a liquid mixture at a given pressure, each component boils at the boiling point corresponding to the given pressure and the vapors of each component will collect separately and purely."

read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distillation and if you still feel like you can confidently remove the alcohol in a home environment, then go for it. im not saying its not possible but if you are truly concerned you shouldn't attempt it without analytical testing. if distillation were easy then they wouldnt pay people like me alot of money to do it.

Amity said:

Let's not delve into a huge debate on alcohol and pregnancy. Thanks.

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No problemo, it's your child...

Thanks for your concern. I'll update with my own taste test once the bottles are carbonated.

No. Bad. Your wife shouldn't be drinking. Are you insane?

I'm a philosopher by trade, and I think that this thread is ethically unsound.

Give a man a beer, and he'll wax prophetic for an hour.
Give him a baby, and that's a LIFETIME of material!


p.s. As a musician, I must argue that ANYTHING you cannot hear, is UNsound!

What my wife and I do is none of your business. I'm not about to debate this with you. This is a homebrew forum. I've gotten some good information from everyone in this thread, and it's up to my wife and I to decide how to proceed. I will not report whether my wife did or did not drink this "reduced alcohol" beer. I will report back on the taste of the final product from my own tasting.

For the record, I am a special education teacher who specializes in adolescents with moderate cognitive delays and behaviour concerns. This includes children with severe FASD. I'm aware of the consequences of alcohol on unborn fetuses.

the funny thing is most of these gentlemen in this string of warnings were weaned on martinis and unfiltered camel 100's way the f back when... i guess this is what brain damage sounds like!

brewmonk said:

the funny thing is most of these gentlemen in this string of warnings were weaned on martinis and unfiltered camel 100's way the f back when... i guess this is what brain damage sounds like!

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You read my mind... exactly what I've been thinking.

After 2 children and 3 different doctors during the wife's pregnancies, they all said that there were no negative effects from small amounts of alcohol. They all said it was on par with a cup of coffee. They said not to exceed 1 cup of coffee a day and 1 weaker drink (like a session beer or half glass of wine).

Some people need to chill the f**k out and do some research.

In for the results. It'd be nice to brew a beer that my father can drink since he doesn't drink.

Chr!$+, live in a "Brothel", and whadda ya'expect

p.s. I don't know what f**K means, but how dare you sir only TWO stars? I'm worth **THREE*!

however, I digress........

On a more serious note, (and I am NOT kidding this time), are you telling me 3 oz. of fermented grape juice is worse for you than a 4 egg omlet, with 3 cheeses and a quarter POUND of bacon?

listen up, schnappie!!!! I've seen people from farm country, and dem scrapple eaten, deer schootin, can drinkin, veal raisin' relatives of mine are no longer around to argue the virtues of their life style (yeah, mf, I said *not* kiddin).......so lets all have a nice evening thanking the unthanked masses of americas (yeah, small A) finast, who gave everything for us.

In God I trust, for all else I PRAY.

end rant </RANT>

as to the O/P (and I hope that you believe that I'm on your side on this one):

Have you ever considered buying a commercial non-alcoholic brew (give or take a half a percent of a lyin' marketing bytCh), and adding to it a 'shot' of your hefe beer "flavors"(unfermented) to change the low-Cal(iber) into what she likes?

Brewmonk: I haven't considered that yet. Perhaps I'll buy some Beck's NA (the best of the NA beer that we've tried) and give it a "shot".

Amity said:

Brewmonk: I haven't considered that yet. Perhaps I'll buy some Beck's NA (the best of the NA beer that we've tried) and give it a "shot".

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I've tried them all (I think)and becks was the best by far. Good choice.

Agreed. 12 ounces of a low abv beer isn't going to cause any damage. Talk to your pediatricians before chastising the guy. And watch Mad Men on ABC sometime!

brewmonk said:

the funny thing is most of these gentlemen in this string of warnings were weaned on martinis and unfiltered camel 100's way the f back when... i guess this is what brain damage sounds like!

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Lets think about this for a minute. We all agree that 2 bottles of 12oz NA(0.5%) is perfectly acceptable for a preggo, right? So, lets assume we can brew a beer that is 4%, and assume we can only take half of the alcohol out. That gives us 2% ABV. Lets also say that you drink only 6oz of said beer. This gives exactly the same alcohol content. Not a problem. At all. Especially when you consider how many women find out they are pregnant AFTER they have had something to drink, and the babies come out JUST FINE. Like my daughter for example.

This discussion reminds me of the time my wife made the mistake of posting on facebook that she drank a cup of coffee while pregnant. Some people don't know how to mind their own business. We need less preaching and more thinking (and possibly drinking).

I wonder if the alcohol can be reduced Enzymatically. Granted, this would have to take a different pathway than human ethanol metabolism, since acetaldehyde and acetic acid aren't particularly beneficial to the flavor profile of most beers.

Why even add yeast to a non-alcoholic beer?

(passedpawn dons dunce cap proactively...)

passedpawn said:

Why even add yeast to a non-alcoholic beer?

(passedpawn dons dunce cap proactively...)

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Without yeast, you just have wort.

lordbeermestrength said:

Especially when you consider how many women find out they are pregnant AFTER they have had something to drink, and the babies come out JUST FINE.

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...or the women who are ****faced when they GET pregnant. Those are plentiful.

OP might find this helpful; Azeotrope.

At work, I've gone the opposite direction; removing water from Isopropanol by running it through a molecular seive. There was a BrewStrong Q&A with Charlie Bamforth and he mentioned a near beer that he had made in Saudi (a distillation was involved). He said it also involved 'adding a lot of stuff back in' after the removal of alcohol and even then it was only 'beer-like'.

ArcaneXor said:

Without yeast, you just have wort.

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Right.

I was leading to the following proposition: it might be easier to build a NA beer by not adding the alcohol in the first place.

Try describing the difference between wort and NA beer. I'm sure there are non-alcohol components created during fermentation. Maybe easier to add those, and not the yeast. Then, there's no alcohol to remove.

Just some food for thought.

passedpawn said:

I'm sure there are non-alcohol components created during fermentation. Maybe easier to add those, and not the yeast. Then, there's no alcohol to remove.

Just some food for thought.

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Theoretically that sounds great, but I imagine in practice adding those compounds would be much harder than it's worth... maybe. I don't know.

I heard once (don't remember where, or what source) that you need about 1.5-2% minimum to get those flavor compounds that occur during fermentation. I think perhaps shooting for a beer in that range and then "NA'ing" it would maybe be the best way to do the least amount of damage to the beer?

I like the idea of doing a big beer and "NA'ing" it, but it seems to me that process would do a lot of damage to the final product, more than would be done to a small beer.

Would it be a good attempt to make the beer up front with out the hops or any aroma based ingredients(coriander, and orange peel). Letting it ferment to reduce the sweetness appropriately, then bring it to a boil and pitch the hops from there. That would keep the beer at a high temp for 60 minutes to drive off as much alcohol as is probably possible in a home setting, and not re-boil the AA from the hops that might change the flavor profile. Not sure how well this would work in practice, just a thought and open to correction.

passedpawn said:

Right.

I was leading to the following proposition: it might be easier to build a NA beer by not adding the alcohol in the first place.

Try describing the difference between wort and NA beer. I'm sure there are non-alcohol components created during fermentation. Maybe easier to add those, and not the yeast. Then, there's no alcohol to remove.

Just some food for thought.

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I guess you could brew up some hoppy Malta.