pH meter questions

I got a Milwaukee ph56 for Christmas. It seems simple enough, so I feel funny asking questions, but I can't find the answer on the Milwaukee website.

When I calibrate, the first three or four times I try, I get "wrng" as a message when I move to the 4.01 buffer solution. It does seem to calibrate, though. After a few times of attempting, it does work. This just doesn't seem right to me at all.

The next thing is it takes a really long time to "lock in" to a pH. I mean, a really long time. The instructions say to gently stir, and that seems to speed it up. But it takes several minutes, moving very slowly to go to a pH and settle.

When I left it sitting in the 4.01 buffer, (the instructions say you can), the pH reading eventually dropped to 3.89. That's a big difference! Is that supposed to happen- it seems like if the 4.01 buffer is 4.01, that the meter wouldn't read differently!

I believe the buffers are going to change as they sit out in the atmosphere. Don't know how long that takes. Also temperature correction plays a part - not sure if your meter corrects or not. The packet of solution I have has a temp correction chart on it. I have a super cheap PH meter and it doesn't take very long for it to settle on a number, not sure if it is a correct number but it makes me feel better.

samc said:

I believe the buffers are going to change as they sit out in the atmosphere. Don't know how long that takes. Also temperature correction plays a part - not sure if your meter corrects or not. The packet of solution I have has a temp correction chart on it. I have a super cheap PH meter and it doesn't take very long for it to settle on a number, not sure if it is a correct number but it makes me feel better.

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I emailed the company, and heard back once and answered their questions.

I'm inclined to believe the probe is defective, as I calibrated and checked the pH of my wort (all at 68 degrees, even though the meter supposedly has ATC). The pH took FOREVER but finally stabilized at 5.40. Then I dipped it in water just to rinse a bit and stuck it back in the 4.01 buffer. (I just took it OUT of there before checking the wort pH). It read 3.81. I put fresh solution in both containers, recalibrated, and checked my wort. It read 5.2.

So, which IS the pH of my wort? 5.2? 5.4? None of the above?

I calibrated this thing about 5 times today and never got the same reading twice.

I've never used Milwaukee PH meter for brewing but I used to have one for a Calcium reactor for reef tank and I went through 2 probes when meter was brand new before the 3rd one was good. Maybe it is a defective probe.


Here is contact info:

Milwaukee Instruments, Inc.
2950 Business Park Drive
Rocky Mount, NC 27804 - U.S.A.
Tel.: +1.252.443.3630
Fax: +1.252.443.1937
Primary: [email protected]
Sales Dept: [email protected]
Technical Dept: [email protected]

They've already emailed me back and are sending out a new replacement probe. It must be defective.

That's great, except I can't brew again until the end of March so I won't even know if it's working properly. Well, I can take the pH of my finished beers, I guess.

I use a Hanna pH meter at work several times a day, every day. It is usually pretty fast and accurate in spite of being a few years old. I calibrate it every couple of weeks. It gets a little stubborn sometimes when calibrating so I "re-boot" it by taking the batteries out. They probably don't really need it but I clean the batteries when I take them out. After returning the batteries, I clean the probe with a cotton swab and water. The meter is stored in a glass of tap water every day, all day.

If your meter acts up again, even with the new probe, try the re-boot trick. It may help, it may not. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

skipper1953 said:

I use a Hanna pH meter at work several times a day, every day. It is usually pretty fast and accurate in spite of being a few years old. I calibrate it every couple of weeks. It gets a little stubborn sometimes when calibrating so I "re-boot" it by taking the batteries out. They probably don't really need it but I clean the batteries when I take them out. After returning the batteries, I clean the probe with a cotton swab and water. The meter is stored in a glass of tap water every day, all day.

If your meter acts up again, even with the new probe, try the re-boot trick. It may help, it may not. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

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Thanks! I have the new probe soaking in storage solution now, and I'll calibrate it tonight. I'm not brewing for a while, but I can check pH of several wines I guess, for practice!

I have another question, then- what is the "instability indicator"? I see no mention of it in the manual.

Yooper said:

I have another question, then- what is the "instability indicator"? I see no mention of it in the manual.

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You can safely ignore that for now as I have no plans on visiting the UP anytime soon.

skipper1953 said:

I use a Hanna pH meter at work several times a day, every day. It is usually pretty fast and accurate in spite of being a few years old. I calibrate it every couple of weeks. It gets a little stubborn sometimes when calibrating so I "re-boot" it by taking the batteries out. They probably don't really need it but I clean the batteries when I take them out. After returning the batteries, I clean the probe with a cotton swab and water. The meter is stored in a glass of tap water every day, all day.

If your meter acts up again, even with the new probe, try the re-boot trick. It may help, it may not. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

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Hey Skipper,

Just curious on you storing the probe in tap water - is that just as effective as that storage solution they sell? Curious as I'm looking at purchasing the Hanna pHep 5 from MoreBeer!

Thanks

jholen said:

Hey Skipper,

Just curious on you storing the probe in tap water - is that just as effective as that storage solution they sell? Curious as I'm looking at purchasing the Hanna pHep 5 from MoreBeer!

Thanks

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I don't require a high degree of accuracy from my meter. The way I handle and store my meter probably reflects that fact. I honestly don't know if my system is as effective as following the manufacturers instructions. It works for me.

I use the Hanna meter for testing the pH of industrial waste water while batch processing. After testing the pH of a water sample, I rinse the probe with a garden hose and stick it in a plastic beaker half full of clean tap water. I have not changed the replaceable glass portion of the meter for a couple of years but I think I'm about due. Before calibrating, I usually check the pH of the 7.0 buffer solution just for the sake of curiosity. The meter is not usually off by much and when it is it is usually a bit high (7.5ish at most).

My own meter (the one I use for brewing and wine making) is stored with a bit of wet (tap water) cotton in the cap. I wrap electrical tape around the cap to seal in the moisture. When I use the meter, I soak it in water while I'm getting things ready. I do a two step calibration using 7.0 and 4.0 buffer solutions before use to insure accuracy. I've had my Hanna meter for several years and I am still using the original glass probe.

I'm satisfied that I don't need to buy a special storage solution. Your mileage may vary.

I'm very frustrated, and I got the new electrode from Milwaukee, and soaked it in the storage solution overnight and calibrated. The same thing happened at first, with the wrng message showing in the 4.01 buffer. (They sent two packages of each buffer, so this was right in the package). I turned it off and tried again and it worked.

So I checked the pH of my tap water. It was 5.72. I gently rinsed it and put it in the 4.01 buffer, and it read 3.92. (this was only about a 5 minute period). I then turned it off and rechecked my tap water (same container). It was 5.52. I recalibrated and got an entirely different reading! It also took a LONG time to get a stable reading.

So, it's doing the same thing as the first electrode. I could try pulling out the batteries and all of that to "reset" it as suggested, but even then if this nonsense stopped I wouldn't be able to trust the readings.

This is very frustrating to me, that's for sure!

Man that sucks! I got to try my new Hanna and it worked flawlessly (Wish I could say the same about my brain, but that is another thread...)

Read the directions, calibrated (took maybe 3 minutes) and measured my tap water. Then I rinsed with distilled water and checked my wort. Quick and easy.

I wondered about the storage solution as well. Seems that you could store in distilled water, but what do I know. I know I'm going to have to buy some more solution. Wife only got a bottle of 7.01.

Homercidal said:

I wondered about the storage solution as well. Seems that you could store in distilled water, but what do I know. I know I'm going to have to buy some more solution. Wife only got a bottle of 7.01.

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The Hanna manual says in capital letters not to store it in distilled water.

"When not in use, rinse the electrode with water to
minimize contamination and store it with a few
drops of HI 70300 storage solution in the protective
cap. DO NOT USE DISTILLED OR DEIONIZED
WATER FOR STORAGE PURPOSES."

http://www.hannainst.com/manuals/manHI_98127_98128.pdf

Oh yeah. I remember seeing that now. Made me wonder why it isn't a good idea.

Mine came completely dry with a dry piece of something over the sensor bulb. I thought they were supposed to be always wet.

Homercidal said:

Oh yeah. I remember seeing that now. Made me wonder why it isn't a good idea.

Mine came completely dry with a dry piece of something over the sensor bulb. I thought they were supposed to be always wet.

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They are! But they come dry, and thereafter you are supposed to keep it wet (bottled drinking water is fine, or the storage solution, or the 4.01 buffer). I can't tell you why- but ajdelange wrote the whys in the science forum and it has to do with the membrane in it.

Yooper said:

I'm very frustrated, and I got the new electrode from Milwaukee, and soaked it in the storage solution overnight and calibrated. The same thing happened at first, with the wrng message showing in the 4.01 buffer. (They sent two packages of each buffer, so this was right in the package). I turned it off and tried again and it worked.

Snip....

This is very frustrating to me, that's for sure!

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When I calibrate my Hanna meter I always get the WRNG message when moving from 7.01 buffer to 4.01 buffer as I cannot rinse the unit, the cap and get the cap refilled with the 4.01 buffer quick enough for the meter. But after I get the probe back in the cap and it senses the 4.01 solution the WRNG message is replaced with CAL message. Is this what you are seeing?

I use my meter to check the PH of my stored Starsan more than anything else

rcrabb22 said:

When I calibrate my Hanna meter I always get the WRNG message when moving from 7.01 buffer to 4.01 buffer as I cannot rinse the unit, the cap and get the cap refilled with the 4.01 buffer quick enough for the meter. But after I get the probe back in the cap and it senses the 4.01 solution the WRNG message is replaced with CAL message. Is this what you are seeing?

I use my meter to check the PH of my stored Starsan more than anything else

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Sometimes, but it does eventually calibrate. My issue now is with the wild readings. I emailed them again, but haven't heard back from them. They sent a new probe, but I don't know if it's the probe or the unit itself as there is no way my water pH changed from 7.72 to 7.52 in one minute.

If the PH probe was shipped dry it needs to be immersed in just water for 24 hours to let the salts dissolve out of the pores in the glass bulb and restore full conductivity again. After soaking then perform the calibration and it should be ready for use again. After each brew session rinse the probe and use the storage salt solution to replenish the salt solution inside the probe between usage so the probe will continue to work and re calibrate. The low end PH meters suffer from temperature compensation issues so do not expect miracles in accuracy when switching from room temp calibration to mash temps.

kladue said:

If the PH probe was shipped dry it needs to be immersed in just water for 24 hours to let the salts dissolve out of the pores in the glass bulb and restore full conductivity again. After soaking then perform the calibration and it should be ready for use again. After each brew session rinse the probe and use the storage salt solution to replenish the salt solution inside the probe between usage so the probe will continue to work and re calibrate. The low end PH meters suffer from temperature compensation issues so do not expect miracles in accuracy when switching from room temp calibration to mash temps.

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Yes, I understand that. The first probe soaked for a week, the second for about 30 hours.

I did all of my testing with all of the solutions at 67.5 degrees.

After calibrating (which took a LONG time), my tap water read 7.75. I removed it and stuck it in the 4.01 buffer, and that read 3.85. My tap water then read 7.52. I rinsed, and checked the 7.01 buffer. It read 7.11. Then I stuck it back in my tap water. That read 6.85. So, in two minutes or so, I got readings of the same tap water as 7.75, 7.52, and 6.85.

It is obviously defective. Whether it is the probe or the unit, I cannot say.

I will say that I never heard back from Milwaukee Instruments about this issue.

Sorry to hear about your pH meter issues

Curious to see how it's resolved.

A dumb question, was the first reading when it was cold, then next readings as it warmed up to room temp?. The PH reading will drop as temperature rises, so lower reading with cold water is expected, sounds like this is an uncompensated PH meter.

kladue said:

A dumb question, was the first reading when it was cold, then next readings as it warmed up to room temp?. The PH reading will drop as temperature rises, so lower reading with cold water is expected, sounds like this is an uncompensated PH meter.

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All samples were at 67.5 degrees.

Looking back at the testing and results you had, it looks like the electronics is the most likely culprit. The sensor should not be changing that much between readings, and I would expect the buffer solutions to be stable where tap water might be losing dissolved air or gasses.
When you said the calibration had taken a long time, was it waiting for the reading to stabilize, or were the readings slow to change when moved from solution to solution.

kladue said:

Looking back at the testing and results you had, it looks like the electronics is the most likely culprit. The sensor should not be changing that much between readings, and I would expect the buffer solutions to be stable where tap water might be losing dissolved air or gasses.
When you said the calibration had taken a long time, was it waiting for the reading to stabilize, or were the readings slow to change when moved from solution to solution.

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Both. Sometimes the solution said "wrng" and sometimes it just took a LONG time. Othertimes, it calibrated fast.

The sent the new electrode and I received it Saturday, but it's the same results as the brand new pH meter with the original electrode.

I tried removing and reinstalling the batteries as a last resort. But I had the same issues.

I took a look at the manual for that unit, 2 point cal with 7.01 and 4.01 solutions is interesting, I am used to PH 10 and PH 4 cal steps to get better slope readings to calibrate with. It almost acts like the internal conductive salt solution is severely depleted and PH signal is so weak that the meter is having difficulty getting an accurate potential reading from the sensor. Having used a Hanna brand PH meter in the past for brewing, and installing and calibrating various brands of industrial PH reading equipment, it might not hurt to soak the sensor in straight storage solution for a week and see if it responds faster when calibrating. If so then the sensor was shipped without sufficient internal solution strength, or the reference is not making a good connection, and operation would be iffy at best until solution strength rebuilds in reference and inside glass bulb.

Did you try new batteries? My cheapy PH meter gave bad readings until I pulled the batteries from something else and swapped in better ones.

Yooper, I got the same meter as you for Christmas. I haven't taken it out of the box. This is disheartening to hear. If meters are such a PIA what is the use? Now i wonder if I should send it back and buy a different meter. Makes my strips look better every time I read posts about meters. Good luck with the meter and hearing from the company.

I had a Milwaukee a few years ago and it **** the bed. Always needed calibration, would lose claibration frequently. I finally junked it and bought this one: Pond Water Quality & Testing: Hanna Instruments pH Testers

No problems and have owned if for about 2 years or so if I remember right. infrequently need recalibration (probably recalibrated 2times). Works great.

I bought the Phep 5 version

Well, through emails and sending new equipment, I've got it working well.

I don't know how well it will hold calibration, but it's working now and we'll see when I brew again (in March or April!) how close the spreadsheets come to predicting my actual mash pH!

You will be stunned. TH's spread sheet is within .02 on nearly every batch. I have never had to adjust the mash after my first additions.

wildwest450 said:

You will be stunned. TH's spread sheet is within .02 on nearly every batch. I have never had to adjust the mash after my first additions.

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what spread sheets are these? link please if applicable

Thanks!

CidahMastah said:

what spread sheets are these? link please if applicable

Thanks!

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He's talking about -th, the HBT member. It's called EZ water calculator 3.0.

I've been using that one, and also starting to use Bru'n water, because I like that Bru'n water has phosphoric acid, 10%, as one of the choices for my sparge water.

EZ Water Calculator

Fast and accurate.

wildwest450 said:

EZ Water Calculator

Fast and accurate.

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Oh, good, you found the link! I didn't have the link handy and was searching for it! I have it on my desktop, and I use it for the mash pH guestimates. I'm glad to hear how close it's been for you- I'm eager to see for myself!

Checking my notes, I told a fib, it's been off .04 at most, still not worth complaining about.








And fwiw, my new meter is extremely sensitive and takes forever to calibrate and settle on a ph as well. It also had a faulty probe when shipped.

Yooper said:

He's talking about -th, the HBT member. It's called EZ water calculator 3.0.

I've been using that one, and also starting to use Bru'n water, because I like that Bru'n water has phosphoric acid, 10%, as one of the choices for my sparge water.

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Ok gotcha!

I use bru'n water too. Or at least did on my lager.

Thanks for the link (I can't help not to look at some random interesting spread sheet or similar ha; I am far too inquisitive )

Why waiting until March to brew Yooper?

jholen said:

Why waiting until March to brew Yooper?

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We're off to our "winter quarters" and I'm unable to haul my brewing gear with me. I'm going to try to find some local brewers in Corpus Christi and other areas to at least see if I can assist on a brew!

Last year we were driving down a side street from the ocean, and I saw a keggle/burner set up in a driveway. I yelled "STOP!" to Bob and was about to run and knock on the door. Then I looked closer, and it was a boiled peanut set up. And my little heart was broken.

Maybe sometime I'll be able to haul a little bit for a small batch, but I just don't have room in the truck with all the other stuff we're taking (kayaks, dog, fishing gear, etc).

Maybe sometime I'll be able to haul a little bit for a small batch, but I just don't have room in the truck with all the other stuff we're taking (kayaks, dog, fishing gear, etc).

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A 20 qt. pot, a 5 gallon fermenter bucket, something to bottle from (maybe the 20 qt pot) and a paint strainer bag would be enough to do a 3 gallon batch. Shouldn't take much room.