WLP644 -Brett B Trois
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Johnnyhitch1
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THIS is getting pushed all the way to the top of the "to brew" list. Your very articulate with your site and it must show in your beer!!
The first time i brewed with trois i had the same feeling. The intense overripe fruit would go GREAT with a huge DIPA!
Cheers!
meltroha
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Oh, I was just going to swirl the carboy by picking it up, not stir with a utensil, should I?
Hey Guys!
2 questions:
1- I will ferment 5 gallons of DIPA (1080ish) and 5 gallons of Dry Stout (1050ish) about at the same time with wlp644. A day or two between the 2 brews, so I will make only a one big starter and use 2/3 for the DIPA and 1/3 for the Stout.
What do you suggest for starter (lenght? Volume? Steps?)
2- I understand 100% brett fermentation are as quick as sacch fermentation and I can bottle after 4 weeks. But does the beer continue to evolve, do Brett's continue to eat dextrins over months, or do they stabilize?
2 questions:
1- I will ferment 5 gallons of DIPA (1080ish) and 5 gallons of Dry Stout (1050ish) about at the same time with wlp644. A day or two between the 2 brews, so I will make only a one big starter and use 2/3 for the DIPA and 1/3 for the Stout.
What do you suggest for starter (lenght? Volume? Steps?)
2- I understand 100% brett fermentation are as quick as sacch fermentation and I can bottle after 4 weeks. But does the beer continue to evolve, do Brett's continue to eat dextrins over months, or do they stabilize?
Tiroux said:
You can't promise it will be done in a month, depending on your grain bill and mash temps it could take longer than a month. Brett won't stop eating till there is no foo or it dies. You might wanna google chad yacabsons dissertation on Brett.
meltroha
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The opposite end of my old plastic mash paddle will fit in the carboy bung, I'll use that. Thanks for your help, cheers!
I have not yet worked with 644 but I would say use both, or add brett in secondary, if you want a kind of saison aroma (freshcut hay, and spicy yeasty smell).
if you want to use 644, i'd add in secondary, it's too fruity for a 'normal' saison as primary. if you want an all brett saison, brett C would work better
I did a 1.040 saison and did not really like the results as a 100% Brett beer. It came across as boring, thin and kind of lifeless. Maybe this strain needs higher gravity. Then I did another 1.040 saison where I blended dupont and blaugies and used 644 and the beer is pretty awesome. I am over the fascination of 100% Brett beers. Just seems like a "cool" trend that will be lightly pursued. I will use my brett as a lenghty secondary or bottle conditioning yeast.
Increasing adjuncts can help the boring, thin, lifeless part, I'm finding that out the hard way, thought I added enough rye to my first Brett beer and 3 months down the road and its getting thin and almost watery. From know on ill be adding considerable amounts of adjuncts to help out the body issues.
Yeah I tried to remedy that with 5% rye, 6% oats, and 6% vienna. It wasn't enough though. I had split the fermentation and the other half was pretty kick butt being fermented with only lambic bottle yeast with out a starter, just a 60ml slurry pitch. So I blame the lifeless boring flavor on the yeast, it didn't taste like hardly anything to me, WAY to clean tasting to be considered a saison. So you guys have your fun, but 100% 644 was a one and done for me.
Do you think it's safe to bottle a brett trois beer after 4 or 5 weeks? I'll have two beers, 1050 and 1080, and fermentation will go from 70 to 80F.
Is a long cold crash ( like 3-7 days) before bottling and then bottle with sacch yeast is a stupid idea? The idea is to prevent a eventual keep-going brett.. And insure a fast carb.
Is a long cold crash ( like 3-7 days) before bottling and then bottle with sacch yeast is a stupid idea? The idea is to prevent a eventual keep-going brett.. And insure a fast carb.
WilliamWS
Well-Known Member
The brett will probably get you to about 80% attenuation in the first few weeks but will eventually go to 90ish.
I did have one beer that only got to about 85% attenuation but that was a 9.7% RIS (1.094).
After you get to the point where it stalls (around 80%) you can often get those last few points relatively quickly by transferring to secondary and/or dry hopping.
I initially heard this info in Chad Yakobson's talk and have found it to be pretty spot on.
I've done a few all-brett beers now (some with trois, some with other strains). My latest is an all-brett pale ale with citra and simcoe done with BKyeast C1 (delicious). It went from 1.045 to 1.009 in about 2 1/2 weeks then sat at that gravity for another couple of weeks. I then dry-hopped in primary and it dropped to 1.004 within about 4 days. It's now been dry hopping for a week and I'm gonna bottle tomorrow @ about 2vols. From experience, pretty confident it'll end up around 2.5vols.
There's no need to add sacc at bottling. It'll carb just fine. And cold crashing won't get rid of all the brett.
If you want to make sure they're no longer active you'd need to either bomb it with campden or pasteurize before adding yeast at bottling.
I did have one beer that only got to about 85% attenuation but that was a 9.7% RIS (1.094).
After you get to the point where it stalls (around 80%) you can often get those last few points relatively quickly by transferring to secondary and/or dry hopping.
I initially heard this info in Chad Yakobson's talk and have found it to be pretty spot on.
I've done a few all-brett beers now (some with trois, some with other strains). My latest is an all-brett pale ale with citra and simcoe done with BKyeast C1 (delicious). It went from 1.045 to 1.009 in about 2 1/2 weeks then sat at that gravity for another couple of weeks. I then dry-hopped in primary and it dropped to 1.004 within about 4 days. It's now been dry hopping for a week and I'm gonna bottle tomorrow @ about 2vols. From experience, pretty confident it'll end up around 2.5vols.
There's no need to add sacc at bottling. It'll carb just fine. And cold crashing won't get rid of all the brett.
If you want to make sure they're no longer active you'd need to either bomb it with campden or pasteurize before adding yeast at bottling.
you want to pitch at lager rates... how many cells are you starting with? a fresh vial, or are you repitching?
I pitch at hybrid rate (between ale and lager), starting with 3 fresh vials (so 9M). Starter on stir plate, 3 steps: 750ml - 1500 ml - 3000ml.
For a 5-6G batch of 1050 and a 5G batch or 1080.
Does it seems right?
yeastcalc.com claims that for 5.5 gal of 1.050 + 5 gal of 1.080, you want 622 billion cells (total), at hybrid rates.
your steps should yield 536 billion so you're in the ballpark.
if you do 1 L, 2 L and 3 L you'll end up with 601 which would be closer.
EDIT: wait, are you starting with 9 Million or 9 Billion? i assumed billion, but you wrote million...
Well I might be wrong but I gives me 747G cells... with the Troester Stir Palte.
Yhea, 9 billions. Sorry.. billion is Milliard in french so...
I've only used this strain once, so take this with a grain of salt, but I only used ale pitching rates and made one of the best beers I've ever made.
ah, troester... that's the difference. i used zainasheff. i read somewhere recently that it was closer to someone's independent tests.
millions, milliards... criss c'est compliqué. j'aurai du y penser!
brett as the primary yeast will not produce tartness. to understand what brett does when used as the primary strain, please refer to this most excellent post by Chad Yacobson: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f127/understanding-brett-flavors-298943/#post3734990
you'll get some funk from brett as the secondary strain because it transforms some of the byproducts of the primary sacc. if you use brett as the primary strain, it doesn't have the sacc byproducts to get funky with... so no funk, just fruity.
if you want true tartness, by which i mean sourness, you need lacto or pedio (lacto = can't use hops, pedio = takes a long time).
sweetcell said:ah, troester... that's the difference. i used zainasheff. i read somewhere recently that it was closer to someone's independent tests.
millions, milliards... criss c'est compliqué. j'aurai du y penser!
brett as the primary yeast will not produce tartness. to understand what brett does when used as the primary strain, please refer to this most excellent post by Chad Yacobson: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f127/understanding-brett-flavors-298943/#post3734990
you'll get some funk from brett as the secondary strain because it transforms some of the byproducts of the primary sacc. if you use brett as the primary strain, it doesn't have the sacc byproducts to get funky with... so no funk, just fruity.
if you want true tartness, by which i mean sourness, you need lacto or pedio (lacto = can't use hops, pedio = takes a long time).
Lacto brevis is hop tolerant
Sweetcell: ton joual est pas pire!
So Zainashef's method would be more relevant? I also asked myself since yeastcalc have add different methods. I have been told that their old curve was Toester so since I always used that and had great quick vigourus fermentation I just holded to Toester... Maybe I'll go somewhere between.
I will begin the fermentation around 70F and let it ramp up to somewhat 75-80 and place it in a 80F room for the last weeks of fermentstion. Doest it serms right? Can I go even hotter? How does it affect?
So Zainashef's method would be more relevant? I also asked myself since yeastcalc have add different methods. I have been told that their old curve was Toester so since I always used that and had great quick vigourus fermentation I just holded to Toester... Maybe I'll go somewhere between.
I will begin the fermentation around 70F and let it ramp up to somewhat 75-80 and place it in a 80F room for the last weeks of fermentstion. Doest it serms right? Can I go even hotter? How does it affect?
dstar26t
If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing
Be careful with these assumptions. Brett doesn't act the same as sacch when making a starter. It will go through many more doublings.
dstar26t
If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing
A 2L 1.040 starter on a stirplate with 1 vial will get you 300 Billion cells after 8 days at 28C. That would be more than enough for the 1.050 beer. 2 vials into a 5L starter would produce plenty of yeast for both beers. I usually grow more than enough and only pitch what's needed after a cell count.
Heum... 1 vial of brett (3G) in 2L for 300G... it gives you a growth factor of 100!!!.... Last time I did something like that I had off flavors that never went away.
I will ramp up for sure.... By the way.. I only have a 2L erlenmeyer... and 4L jars that fit on my stir plate but in with the magnetic bar doesn't really works (too thick glass)
I recently brewed a Brett Trois IPA (71% light lme, 19% wheat lme, 4% carapils, and 4% acid malt with magnum, chinook, citra, and galaxy) and I'm getting all the great flavors and aromas mentioned throughout the thread. After three weeks, the beer has gone from 1.052 to 1.012 and i'm ready to dry hop before bottling.
For those that have bottled with Brett Trois, what carbonation volume did you go for when bottling? Although the brett acts like a sach yeast during primary fermentation and supposedly drops hard once in the bottle, I would think the brett keeps slowly chugging along and will drop a few additional points over time. I'm curious if you tried to compensate for this to avoid potential bottle bombs or you're drinking it fresh enough that this wouldn't necessarily be an issue.
For those that have bottled with Brett Trois, what carbonation volume did you go for when bottling? Although the brett acts like a sach yeast during primary fermentation and supposedly drops hard once in the bottle, I would think the brett keeps slowly chugging along and will drop a few additional points over time. I'm curious if you tried to compensate for this to avoid potential bottle bombs or you're drinking it fresh enough that this wouldn't necessarily be an issue.
WilliamWS
Well-Known Member
You'll probably drop a few more points when you dry hop.
I can't say for certain but I'd expect this beer to eventually get down to the 1.005ish range. If you're not there at bottling then I'd certainly either try to compensate with less priming sugar (2 pts=about one volume) or refrigerate after they're carbonated to ensure they don't slowly become over-carbed.
Even if it is in that range, if your planning to hold on to some bottles for a while, I'd pop one every now and then to check the carbonation.
I can't say for certain but I'd expect this beer to eventually get down to the 1.005ish range. If you're not there at bottling then I'd certainly either try to compensate with less priming sugar (2 pts=about one volume) or refrigerate after they're carbonated to ensure they don't slowly become over-carbed.
Even if it is in that range, if your planning to hold on to some bottles for a while, I'd pop one every now and then to check the carbonation.
lawbadger said:
Transfer it to secondary and add your dry hops, the movement and air will kick the Brett back into gear and it'll drop lower than 1.012 and then when you bottle if you use regular 12oz bottles you can shoot for 2 volumes and should be safe.
I had read that dryhopping can help drop a few points. I'll also rock the fermenter (being careful to not splash) to stir up the brett that has settled.
I was thinking that 2 volumes should be alright for his beer given that IPAs are typically in the range of 1.5-2.3 and that the brett will continue to work once in the bottle.
Yhea about carbonation... Once someone told me: Brett produce like half co2 as sacch so double your priming sugar. I was skeptical so I e-mailed neva parker at WL to ask her and she said: No, no.. brett produce co2 just as much as sacch, and even a tiny tiny bit less (when producing acetic acid).
But then.. when I asked her a few months later a question about the Farmhouse blend, she told me: oh and remember that brett produce less cO2 and you have to prime more.
What the F?
Normally I prime at 6gL, which gives me estimately 2.3v/v... Should I stay there?
But then.. when I asked her a few months later a question about the Farmhouse blend, she told me: oh and remember that brett produce less cO2 and you have to prime more.
What the F?
Normally I prime at 6gL, which gives me estimately 2.3v/v... Should I stay there?
bovineblitz
Well-Known Member
I prime it as I would any other beer, and it's worked fine three times so far. If anything it seems slightly more carbonated than normal.
