need sour beer advice

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leolee86

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Going to brew my first sour this weekend, its a all grain consecration kit from more beer. I've brewed several all grain beers with great results. Just a little nervous about the sour brewing..anyone have any helpful advice or tips
 
what sort of technique does the kit tell you to use?

there are a couple different ways to go about souring a beer.
 
It's says ferment to 1.018 with abby, 73degrees..then rise to 76 until 1.106 ..secondary, add the bret currants and the barrel oak..Bottle with wine yeast at 1.008
 
Yeah, from what I was reading about the kit, I think all you'll have to do is toss the extras into a secondary and wait (the waiting will be the toughest!). The barrel chips will have all of the new bugs on them, so then you just have to give them some time until the flavors hit where you want them to be and/or they finish out. Not sure if they give a secondary time frame estimate, but I'd just plan on letting them sit and taking gravity readings/samples each month until they hit a point where it tastes good.

Watch the gravity too, if it hits a point where you like it but the gravity is still slowly dropping, you'll want to take that into account when you bottle it. The brett could still be working on it, and the fresh wine yeast at bottling could start up again on whatever's left over, leading to bombs if you're not careful. It should definitely make a tasty beer though!
 
Never used this kit, but I'm not sure that thE Brett alone will give you the sourness you find in RR Consecration. I'm pretty sure to get sourness you need bacteria like Lacto and/or Pedio. Does the kit include these "bugs" as well?
 
From reading about the kit it sounds like the barrel chips are actually part of an RR barrel that they broke down, so in theory they should have everything already inoculated in them. Not sure where the OP is from, but if they can get some RR beers a few dregs wouldn't hurt either :).
 
I need to revive this thread. I bought the MoreBeer Consecration kit that I am going to brew on New Years Day.
The instruction that come with the kit says:

Mash - Recommended to mash around 158-159* F

Primary - Ferment with Abbey Ale Yeast at 72* for the first 2-3 days. Let it free rise to 76* to finish out.

Secondary - Add the black currants and pitch the Brettanomyces. Sour for 4-6 months until desired sour level is reached the add the oak chunks until desired oak level is reached.

Bottle condition with wine yeast.

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The notes on the website say:
Vinnie recommends fermenting down to around a 1.016-1.018 with Abbey Ale yeast. He recommends the temperature to be 72°F during the first few days of fermentation, and then lets it free rise to 76°F until the target gravity of 1.016 is reached.

After hitting this target gravity, he'll transfer to barrels to start the aging and souring process (a secondary fermenter will be necessary - a barrel would be preferred!) Currants and Brettanomyces are added at this point.

After approximately 7-8 weeks, you'll want to add your Lactobacillus and Pediococcus. To kill two birds with one stone, we recommend pitching Roeselare (WY3763) which contains both bacterium.

The souring process can take anywhere from four to twelve months. Once the desired sourness level is achieved, you'll want to add the Consecration barrel oak chunk(s) until desired oak character is achieved.

Vinnie uses Belgian bottles when bottling Consecration, and bottle conditions using wine yeast. He mentions that he'll never bottle if the gravity is over 1.008.

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Two questions:
Mash at 158 to 159*? Can that be right? That seems high to me but I haven't made a beer like this before.

The instructions that come with the kit don't say anything about Lacto or Pedio at 7-8 weeks. Which set of instruction is right? Seems like you would need this but there is not mention of it in the actual kit.
 
For your second question, after rereading my previous posts, it looks like I was definitely wrong! Now that the instructions are online, they sound like you'll want to add the additional bugs (including lacto/pedio). Not sure why they suggest adding brett, then the roeselare blend since I thought that roeselare already had brett in it. Maybe the idea is to add enough brett to get the character you want first, then to sour with the lacto/pedio until its as sour as you want? But to get the sour component, you'll definitely want something with lacto and pedio in it.

For your first question, I'm assuming part of the idea of mashing that high is to leave some dextrins that the brett can utilize that sacc can't. It also probably helps to keep the final gravity higher, since I'd wager if you mashed at 152 and added the sacc and brett, they'd combine to chew it down well past 1.018.

Edit: Misread last paragraph, they mention fermenting down to 1.008, not 1.018. The 18 is the sacc portion. Although I've heard brett can still ferment quite a bit lower than 1.008, so the higher mash is still probably better.
 
On youtube, morebeer interviews Vinnie and he talks about the high mash temp is to feed the bacteria long term. But there is a few other good bits in the interview, but you will have to excuse the interviewer, you'll see why when you watch it. It's part 4 of a four part series.

I'm looking to brew my first sour this weekend, and I'm trying to take something Vinnie said about how he was taught. He was taught little bits, but not the whole story to give him just enough room to make it his own. So while I will be taking poiters, I'm not looking to clone it. As the guys from Brewing TV said, your sours start to get a family tree going and the charcter begins to be unique to your beers.

I was also currious if the kit came with the fruit? I was thinking of using tart cherries, but either way I would probably have to mail order. This is the first I've heard of using Black Currants.
 
1. The black currants are not actually black currants. They are Zante currants, which are a type of raisin.

2. The 158 mash temp is to keep a lot of long chain sugars available for the bacteria.

3. I would do as they say, but then add some dregs from a few bottles of sour or add some roselare or sour mix "yeast" to the secondary.
 
I am wondering why Vinnie says to wait to add lacto/pedio. I would think you'd want to add lacto as early as possible to get a little sourness before most of the fermentables are gone. There's one person I'd like to have a few hours to talk to, although he did answer my email a while back, as he is known to do.

Ultimately though I think the best tip for sours is that in some ways they are actually easier to brew than normal beers. The sourness and funkyness will dominate the flavor profile, and time will ensure that you get both. The only way you could really screw this beer up is over-oaking it.
 
Oak is my next question. A guy on beer Smith pod cast said .25 - .5 oz, but didn't really specify time. Most people add it with the bugs so 6-12 months on oak. I was thinking. 5oz I used 1oz in a ris, and it did not come through after 2 weeks
 
Less oak sat for longer gives a better overall flavor than more oak sat for less time. I'm not sure about the 0.25-0.5 oz deal as it often comes down to taste and time in the wort but I plan on putting 1 oz into my 5.5 gallons of a consecration clone I'm doing. It will sit 1 year on the oak and if its too strong I can hold off drinking it while it mellows. I plan on drinking this beer slowly anyway. Also make sure to boil the oak for 15 minutes before adding as it takes out some of the harsher oak flavors.
 
Just added rosellare to my sour at 1.018. I've made my recipe from others i've read. I want to add oak and tart cherries, some recipes say to add with the bugs, some say to add about 6 months in? any input on this?
 
rexbanner said:
I am wondering why Vinnie says to wait to add lacto/pedio. I would think you'd want to add lacto as early as possible to get a little sourness before most of the fermentables are gone. There's one person I'd like to have a few hours to talk to, although he did answer my email a while back, as he is known to do.

Ultimately though I think the best tip for sours is that in some ways they are actually easier to brew than normal beers. The sourness and funkyness will dominate the flavor profile, and time will ensure that you get both. The only way you could really screw this beer up is over-oaking it.

I believe Vinnie waits to add the lacto/pedio for two reasons:

1) While Brettanomyces is a wild yeast, it's still a yeast and a fragile one at that. It needs to remain at a pretty high pH level to continue to eat sugars. B/c the lacto/pedio bugs lower that pH so much, at some point it'll render the Brett useless.

2) Pedio and Lacto ferment sugars to much higher attenuation % than yeasts (aside from possibly wine/champagne yeasts). So, first Sacchro, then Brett to ferment it a but further, and finally the bacteria to push it down even more.

Just tasted my first sour that I pitched almost a year ago. Yep. These things are worth the wait!
 
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