Off Flavor, need i.d. !!

Hi guys, after much searching I still cannot find a solution to my "problem"...my last two batches have had an "off" flavor to them...but it's something I've never tasted, so it's very difficult to describe.

I noticed it first in a Cream Ale...having never had Cream Ale before, I thought maybe that was just how it tasted...now I have sampled a bottle of a Nut Brown Ale, and I can pick it out again, although not nearly as strong..

So my issue is this...the flavor is not sour, offensive, sweet, tangy, tart, etc. etc....it is truly unique therefore I have nothing to compare it too...I know that doesn't help much, but maybe some of you have experienced this...oh and all my equip/bottling equip was clean and sanitized with starsan

Could this be an ester? Prior to having a refridgerated fermentation chamber, these 2 brews fermented high...74-76, with notty yeast. I haven't finished a brew with the new setup yet to compare...

Could my beer just be green? Both were sampled around 6wk mark...

Sorry for the long post, but this is concerning me as I have more brews in the pipeline coming that cannot be modified at this point...thanks for reading, I hope you guys can help..this community is amazing!

Could you pick the flavor out of a beer flavor wheel, like this?

Could also look through a description of off-flavors

Thanks for those links, I bookmarked them for future use...but still none struck me as "that's it!"...not trying to be difficult, it's just truly something I can't put a likeness to...again not bad or anything, just "different"...it is only because it came through in another batch that I am thinking could be potentally an issue...

This is all new to me, maybe its just green...but I then again I don't know what "green" beer tastes like either That's why I'm turning to the community

How many batches have you made before this and has anything changed between these and your previous batches? Same water, same fermentation temp, same yeast? Every spring (as things melt here in Minnesota) our water profile changes significantly so could it potentially be water based? Did your earlier batches ferment warmer or cooler? Were these all-grain or extract batches?

Same everything, yes...they are (dry) extract recipes from local brew shop, was my 2nd and 3rd batch that I noticed...made a Belgian Wit for my first batch that turned out great...it was dead on...they all used nottingham, and fermented higher than ideal (74-76)...

I have since switched to liquid style-appropriate yeast(white labs), and now have a controlled temp fermentation chamber where I can keep a steady 64 or...but none of those batches are ready yet for comparison...I have a private well, but all of my levels are good and usually consistent...and this water was used for my first batch too, which had no tones of this flavor...

My first batch was a pale ale that fermented way too high, close to 80 degrees. It also fluctuated in temperature a lot. It had a strange off flavor that I would describe almost like banana or burnt rubber with a bit of a grassy taste. It was pretty bad. I would bet that the fermentation temperatures had a part in your off flavor and the batches that are in your ferm chamber will be much better. What temp did you pitch the yeast at?

Have you changed anything with regard to cleaning/sanitizing?

In a cream ale huh. Was there corn in this cream ale. I started getting a weird taste in when I started using corn. It was like a funny piña colata type taste. Started using rice insteAd and it went away

McDingleberry said:

My first batch was a pale ale that fermented way too high, close to 80 degrees. It also fluctuated in temperature a lot. It had a strange off flavor that I would describe almost like banana or burnt rubber with a bit of a grassy taste. It was pretty bad. I would bet that the fermentation temperatures had a part in your off flavor and the batches that are in your ferm chamber will be much better. What temp did you pitch the yeast at?

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Both were pitched at about 70, then they rose as the yeasties did their thing...I'm hoping that's it and am excited to see how the next one comes out with the temp controlled...

Smokeater233 said:

Have you changed anything with regard to cleaning/sanitizing?

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No, all equipment has been cleaned and sanitized in the same way since day one, and first batch was great....the flavor was strong in the cream ale, and barely there with the nut brown...

eelpout said:

In a cream ale huh. Was there corn in this cream ale. I started getting a weird taste in when I started using corn. It was like a funny piña colata type taste. Started using rice insteAd and it went away

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I'm not sure on that, will have to double check the recipe, although that would not explain it in the nut brown, as there its no corn in that...

Anyone else? I know this was kind of a vague question...I'm hoping time will provide an improvement with these, as that seems to always be a solution to many problems....and when my next batch made with the new ferm setup is ready, at least I'll have something to compare to that did have a change in process...thanks everyone
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Private well, huh? Just my two cents, but that might be the issue. Just a hunch. There are things out there that affect the taste of the water that are not necessarily tested for... like just about anything.

I feel for you - I was in a rut too, until I found the culprit (switching to Star San did the trick for me). I understand completely how difficult it is to put your finger on an off-flavor. It's frustrating.

My suggestion is to take a brew or two to a local brew club - find the least hot-shot, most experienced member there, take him/her aside, and sample it.

READ. LEARN. DO NOT GIVE UP.

I would suggest waiting for the brews in your new fermentation chamber to see if they have the taste too. That'll also allow the other batches to condition a bit. If the beers from the fermentation chamber have the off taste, try changing ONE thing at a time to narrow it down. Maybe start with DI or RO water...

Before you do that, specifically tell us the things that were the SAME between the batches that hae the same taste... Everything you can... Like, the DME? Water? Yeast? Temps? Boil time? Primary/Secondary times? Locations? Cleaning/Sanitizing solutions? etc... It may not result in us knowing what the taste is, but it may help you find something that was the same and can be changed.

If you got a perfect Wit from Notty, there's something odd. Could be that Belgian Wit flavor is unwelcome in your other two brews. Could be fermentation temperatures. It's hard to say.

You should try to find a local club and have some experienced local brewers give them a try and see what they say.

Is it a cross between bubble gum and sucking on a tea bag?

If so, my bet is on fermentation temps.

This would make sense if the cream ale is the lightest color or lowest gravity brew you have made. The other beers might have hidden the off-flavor but could have still been there.

If its not the temps, then I agree about the water. It could explain things the same way as re: not noticing before. But also, you never know how your water may have changed from natural changes in the weather, etc.

If fermentation temps don't do it, I agree on RO or distilled water.

Thanks for the responses guys...as for the process of the batches, everything was identical, as stated earlier...using star san, steep/boil/hop schedules all per directions each time...same water (well), same yeast (notty), pitch temps, etc. etc....so I know my process was consistent...
the one thing I do know for fact is that they fermented too high...that's why I'm hoping the new chamber fixes it...if not then I will change the water after that...
In the meantime I am going to take a couple bottles to the lhbs for some opinions/insight...thanks again guys

doesn't Notty throw off a bunch of off flavors if fermented in the mid 70's? I though it liked to be in low 60's ideally

oldedustygoat said:

Thanks for the responses guys...as for the process of the batches, everything was identical, as stated earlier...using star san, steep/boil/hop schedules all per directions each time...same water (well), same yeast (notty), pitch temps, etc. etc....so I know my process was consistent...
the one thing I do know for fact is that they fermented too high...that's why I'm hoping the new chamber fixes it...if not then I will change the water after that...
In the meantime I am going to take a couple bottles to the lhbs for some opinions/insight...thanks again guys

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Yeah, I'd say you've done a good job looking at the process for consistency. Sometimes a fresh look will force you to see something else. My guess is fermentation temps (like several others)...

flabyboy said:

doesn't Notty throw off a bunch of off flavors if fermented in the mid 70's? I though it liked to be in low 60's ideally

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I'm hoping that was the issue, because I know it was too high...it was lack of equip/knowledge that caused me to ferment at room temp..now that is no longer an issue and hopefully the next batch will come out better

Definitely try lower fermentation temps.

One issue is since these are your first few batches it's hard to say whether you have an "off flavor" since you haven't made any without said "off flavor" to compare to. It's extract home brew, it usually tastes like homebrew. The first batch being a Belgium Wit is supposed to have funky flavors (and Notty would be a wierd choice for that beer) so it is a little hard to say that your first batch didn't have any off flavors but your second and third batch did.

brewit2it said:

Definitely try lower fermentation temps.

One issue is since these are your first few batches it's hard to say whether you have an "off flavor" since you haven't made any without said "off flavor" to compare to. It's extract home brew, it usually tastes like homebrew. The first batch being a Belgium Wit is supposed to have funky flavors (and Notty would be a wierd choice for that beer) so it is a little hard to say that your first batch didn't have any off flavors but your second and third batch did.

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Exactly...I have nothing to compare to lol...and I realize in hindsight the notty wasn't ideal for the wit (default kit yeast)...I have since switched to style-appropriate liquid yeast and the ferment chamber, so I'm anxious to see if that fixes things...cheers!

unionrdr said:

It's likely the high temps,not to mention,yeast choice. But I just had a thought...How much star-san did you mix into how much water? That stuff is safe at recommended dilution ratios.

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I'm hoping it was the temps...and from now on I'm only using style-appropriate yeast...out of ignorance I was just using what came with the kit...
As for the star-san I just follow the label, which I believe is 1 oz per 5 gal...thanks for your input...that's why I love this community!

oldedustygoat said:

Exactly...I have nothing to compare to lol...and I realize in hindsight the notty wasn't ideal for the wit (default kit yeast)...I have since switched to style-appropriate liquid yeast and the ferment chamber, so I'm anxious to see if that fixes things...cheers!

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Actually Nottingham is a helluva yeast. In fact it is about as neutral and versatile as you can get. It is great for ales, both american style and english, and it can take surprisingly low temps, down to 54 degrees so you actually can brew lagers with it. But I don't think it is going to be too great once you get above 72 or so. It sounds like you are ahead of the curve already with temp controlled chamber. Now that you have the temps controlled you might want to try the Notty again because it is cheap and ultra easy to use.

One thing I did that seems to have really improved my beer is start doing partial mashes. Not sure why but even when using the same batch of liquid extract it seems like the twang is much less or not there at all.

oldedustygoat said:

Anyone else? I know this was kind of a vague question...I'm hoping time will provide an improvement with these, as that seems to always be a solution to many problems....and when my next batch made with the new ferm setup is ready, at least I'll have something to compare to that did have a change in process...thanks everyone
Via HBT for android

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Extract twang? All of my batches had a consistent off flavor until I went to all-grain and it's now completely gone after 3 batches.

brewit2it said:

Actually Nottingham is a helluva yeast. In fact it is about as neutral and versatile as you can get. It is great for ales, both american style and english, and it can take surprisingly low temps, down to 54 degrees so you actually can brew lagers with it. But I don't think it is going to be too great once you get above 72 or so. It sounds like you are ahead of the curve already with temp controlled chamber. Now that you have the temps controlled you might want to try the Notty again because it is cheap and ultra easy to use.

One thing I did that seems to have really improved my beer is start doing partial mashes. Not sure why but even when using the same batch of liquid extract it seems like the twang is much less or not there at all.

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Well that's encouraging, I know it was too high for the notty... I actually have a cherry wheat in the chamber right now that I used the nottingham for, and I'm keeping that right at 64, so we'll see...

I also did find some older threads by searching for nottingham flavors where others seemed to have a "mystery" flavor when they fermented in the upper 70's with it, so maybe that's it..I really hope so...

I want to move to partial mashes eventually too and even AG when budget allows lol...thanks again for the help

sudsmcgee said:

Extract twang? All of my batches had a consistent off flavor until I went to all-grain and it's now completely gone after 3 batches.

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I've considered that too, and not necessarily ruled it out either...time and more batches will help to determine that...I thought however that "twang" was more common in LME recipes and not DME, but there is alot of debate over the whole twang thing...also isn't twang supposed to be like an added sweet or malty taste? The flavor I have is neither...but thanks for looking and your input!

Well, I always used kits with both LME and DME, so I can't help with that part, but I found it to be a sweet taste with a tin can component to it. Perhaps it was only the LME then.....