Calculating total gas produced in fermentation

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mooface

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Hi,

I'm trying to answer 2 questions:
- how much gas will be produced during fermentation
- what would the pressure be in a 5g corny if used as primary fermenter will NO VENTING

I tried to calculate this, but the number is absurdly low. What did I do wrong?

CALCULATION:
-- Assume 5.5 ABV% in 5 gallons yields 1.041L of ethanol (EtOH).
-- 1.041L EtOH * (789 g / L) = 821 g EtOH
-- 821 g EtOH / (46.07 g / mole) = 17.82 moles EtOH
-- Yeast metabolism fermentation RXN: C6H12O6 → 2 CH3CH2OH + 2 CO2.
-- Therefore Ethanol to CO2 ratio is 1:1 = 17.82 moles CO2
-- 17.82 mole CO2 * (44.010 g/ mol) = 784 g CO2
-- 784 g CO2 / (1.977 g/L) = 396 L CO2 (at 0 deg C) (not used)
-- "Confined to 1L headspace: P = 17.82 **8.314472 * 273.15 / 1L = 40470 Pa
-- 40470 Pa = 5 PSI
 
I can see a use for such a calculation! Maybe the government will cap how much beer we can make (at least lower than it is now) so that we don't harm the environment by pumping CO2 into the atmosphere. I mean what if all the beer makers of the world are the cause for global warming!
 
Hi,

I'm trying to answer 2 questions:
- how much gas will be produced during fermentation
- what would the pressure be in a 5g corny if used as primary fermenter will NO VENTING

I tried to calculate this, but the number is absurdly low. What did I do wrong?

CALCULATION:
-- Assume 5.5 ABV% in 5 gallons yields 1.041L of ethanol (EtOH).
-- 1.041L EtOH * (789 g / L) = 821 g EtOH
-- 821 g EtOH / (46.07 g / mole) = 17.82 moles EtOH
-- Yeast metabolism fermentation RXN: C6H12O6 → 2 CH3CH2OH + 2 CO2.
-- Therefore Ethanol to CO2 ratio is 1:1 = 17.82 moles CO2
-- 17.82 mole CO2 * (44.010 g/ mol) = 784 g CO2
-- 784 g CO2 / (1.977 g/L) = 396 L CO2 (at 0 deg C) (not used)
-- "Confined to 1L headspace: P = 17.82 **8.314472 * 273.15 / 1L = 40470 Pa
-- 40470 Pa = 5 PSI


1) Why are we doing this calc at 0 Celsius?

You're going to be fermenting at say 20C (68f?), so we're looking at ~44K Pa. which would be 6.4 or so PSI.




I still think something is wrong here. The guys fermenting in closed vessels (check the fermentation in cornies thread) are using the last couple points to carb beer. One guy kept a sealed corny and IIRC< it was at like 60 psi.

Maybe we're missing CO2 being released when the yeast cleave larger sugars into smaller ones?
 
You are right, 5 psi is a bit low. Here&#8217;s how I&#8217;d estimate it:

Assume an empty corny as this will make it easier, corny volume is 19 liters (5gal X 3.78 l/gal).

Assume about 800 grams CO2 produced, your pretty close, I recall 49% of fermentables are turned into CO2.

So, 800 g CO2 equals 18.2 moles CO2 (44 g per mole CO2)

At standard temperature and pressure 1 mole of any gas is 22.4 liters (STP is 1 atmosphere, 14.7 psi, at 0 degrees C.

So, 18.2 moles CO2 is 408 liters at STP (18.2 X 22.4).

To convert to 19 liters, use the old P1V1 = P2V2 equation, where
P1 = 14.7 psi, V1 = 408 liters, P2 is the unknown, and V2 is 19 liters

Solve the equation for P2, P1V1/V2 = 14.7 X 408 / 19 = 315 psi, at 0 C, will be higher at room temp.

So that&#8217;s your answer for putting all that CO2 into an empty corny, with it filled with fermented beer, I have no idea. I would assume it will be higher, but I don&#8217;t have any idea what the maximum solubility of CO2 is in beer, so I can&#8217;t really say. Of course, the pressure relief valve on a corny is supposed to blow at 130 psi, so maybe that&#8217;s the real answer.
 
You can't do this calculation very easily without some fancy differential equations. The problem is that CO2 will become more soluble as the pressure increases (Henry's Law) and as the solubility increases, the marginal pressure contribution of each additional molecule of CO2 becomes less. At some point it will turn into carbonic acid and the pH will drop and that will affect the solubility. But then some of the carbonic acid will turn into bicarbonate and the solution will buffer itself. All in all you are talking about a very involved problem here.

If you use the combined gas law instead of Boyle's law and assume no solubility of CO2 and 1L of headspace:

P1*V1/T1=P2*V2/T2
or:
P2=P1*V1*T2/(V2*T1)=14.7 PSI*408 L*298.15 K/(1 L * 273.15 K)=~6500 PSI

so HairyDog was about right.
 
You are right, 5 psi is a bit low. Here’s how I’d estimate it:

Assume an empty corny as this will make it easier, corny volume is 19 liters (5gal X 3.78 l/gal).

Assume about 800 grams CO2 produced, your pretty close, I recall 49% of fermentables are turned into CO2.

So, 800 g CO2 equals 18.2 moles CO2 (44 g per mole CO2)

At standard temperature and pressure 1 mole of any gas is 22.4 liters (STP is 1 atmosphere, 14.7 psi, at 0 degrees C.

So, 18.2 moles CO2 is 408 liters at STP (18.2 X 22.4).

To convert to 19 liters, use the old P1V1 = P2V2 equation, where
P1 = 14.7 psi, V1 = 408 liters, P2 is the unknown, and V2 is 19 liters

Solve the equation for P2, P1V1/V2 = 14.7 X 408 / 19 = 315 psi, at 0 C, will be higher at room temp.

So that’s your answer for putting all that CO2 into an empty corny, with it filled with fermented beer, I have no idea. I would assume it will be higher, but I don’t have any idea what the maximum solubility of CO2 is in beer, so I can’t really say. Of course, the pressure relief valve on a corny is supposed to blow at 130 psi, so maybe that’s the real answer.

Wow... so cool.... I really need a math and science refresher....

I would love to see a reference on this "I recall 49% of fermentables are turned into CO2"...
 
Balling's findings were that 2.0665 grams of extract were consumed for each gram of ethanol produced along with 0.11 grams of yeast biomass and 0.9565 grams CO2. This, of course, represents an average as some yeast strains will put more of the extract into biomass than others. That aside, if you know OG and FG you can calculate the number of grams of CO2 produced. From there you can fiddle with your PV=nRT and Henry stuff to come up with a volume of CO2. Don't forget to include the vapor pressure of water.
 
I don't think you would ever be able to realistically be able to calculate a theoretical gas production with any acceptable range of accuracy. Mainly, at well below 5000 PSI the yeast would have ceased fermentation for too many reasons. If you were concerned with the total volume of gas produced, it would be possible to do a normal fermentation with a mass air flow sensor capable of low volume flow rates attached to a carboy. After the fermentation has ceased, you should be able to integrate the flow rate over the elapsed time for a measure of volume of gas produced. If this could be done somewhere around at least 50 times, with the same basic conditions, then you might be able get a good idea on the volume of gas produced.
 
I don't think you would ever be able to realistically be able to calculate a theoretical gas production with any acceptable range of accuracy. Mainly, at well below 5000 PSI the yeast would have ceased fermentation for too many reasons. If you were concerned with the total volume of gas produced, it would be possible to do a normal fermentation with a mass air flow sensor capable of low volume flow rates attached to a carboy. After the fermentation has ceased, you should be able to integrate the flow rate over the elapsed time for a measure of volume of gas produced. If this could be done somewhere around at least 50 times, with the same basic conditions, then you might be able get a good idea on the volume of gas produced.

OK... I will take your word for it but....

We should be able to measure it "after" shouldn't we?
 
I don't think you would ever be able to realistically be able to calculate a theoretical gas production with any acceptable range of accuracy.

Depends on what you consider acceptable. If you consider the ABV calculations you do based on hydrometer readings accurate enough then the gas evolution calculation can be done accurately enough as the ABV calculations are based on an approximation to Ballings findings.

For example if you have a hectolitre of 12° wort fermented to 75% attenuation (3°) you start with 1.04*.12*100*1000 = 12480 grams of extract reduced to 1.011*100*.03*1000 = 3033 grams for a consumption of 12480 - 3033 and a CO2 production of .9565*(12480 - 3033)/2.0665 =
4372.64 grams of CO2. With a molecular weight of 44 this amounts to 99.38 moles.

And someone wanted a reference for the amount of CO2 produced. Do a Google search on Balling 2.0665. The first hit (or an early one) should be to a Carlsberg site which has a .pdf that gives a reference.

Assuming the fermentor is at 50 °F the molar volume of CO2 is 23.091 liters per mole so 2294.7 liters of gas have been produced. Assuming the fermentor is open to the atmosphere (i.e. the pressure is 1 atm) 1.1 vols or 110 litres of CO2 will remain in solution leaving 2184.7 litres to be expelled.

At 50 °F (10 °C) the vapor pressure of water is about 0.01 atm so the flow of gas out of the fermenter would be about 1% higher than 2185 liters i.e. 2207 L.

So there it is - assuming I didn't make any math errors (which I did but caught so we are really assuming I didn't make any more).

Someone wanted a reference: Do a Google search on 'Balling 2.0665' and you will come up with a Carlsberg site which has a .pdf you can download or view
 
Fellow nerds, just to add about figuring pressure:

http://www.adichemistry.com/physical/gaseous/deviation/van-der-waals-equation.html#BEHAVIOUR OF REAL GASES: DEVIATIONS FROM IDEAL GAS BEHAVIOUR

has a chart towards the bottom that shows that for temperatures below 50 degrees C, PV=nRT needs some correction cause it's non-ideal gas. So the gas is doing all sorts of compressing. The answer is out there though.

2 cents, rock on fellow nerds:ban:

Once you figure out volume, this site will give you the corrected pressure.

http://antoine.frostburg.edu/chem/senese/javascript/realgas.shtml
 
I used the Antoine formula to figure vapor pressure in #13. Also the molar volume was corrected with the first virial coefficient. The difference between ideal and and actual behavior of CO2 at modest temperature and pressure is small.
 
OK... I will take your word for it but....

We should be able to measure it "after" shouldn't we?

I'm not sure what you mean, but yes, once you have all of the data for the whole fermentation you can get the total volume of gas produced. You can then use the ideal gas eq. to estimate the pressure due to the change in volume.


mbobhat said:
Depends on what you consider acceptable.

I didn't mean to come off harsh; I know it's possible to get a rough idea, but the OP ought to just do maybe a 1 gallon batch in a completely closed fermentation and see the final pressure after a few weeks to get an idea of what the numbers are. Using some kind of pressure regulator or blow off valve would probably be a good idea :mug:
 
I'm trying to answer 2 questions:
- how much gas will be produced during fermentation
- what would the pressure be in a 5g corny if used as primary fermenter will NO VENTING

I tried to calculate this, but the number is absurdly low. What did I do wrong?


The first error is assuming equimolar production of ethanol and CO2. 1 gram of ethanol (1/48.07 = 20.80 mmol) corresponds to 0.9565 grams of CO2 (.9565/44 = 21.74 mmol). The 821 grams of EtOH OP estimated would correspond to 0.9565*821 = 785.3 grams of CO2. Not a huge error by any means. But the answer to the question "How much gas would be produced" depends on the amount of alcohol produced and in this case is 785 grams. This can be expressed in terms of a volume at any temperature and pressure you desire.

The next error is failure to consider the partition of CO2 between the headspace and beer volumes. The problem at this point can be posed as "I have 18 litres of beer and 1 litre of head space. The total CO2 is 783.3 grams. What is the pressure? The answer is 256 psig at 50 °F. This depends on the fact of having 783 grams of CO2 which in turn depends on the assumption that 821 grams of EtOH was produced. Clearly you aren't going to get 256 psig and that is, among other things like the keg rupturing, because yeast metabolism will be slowed as the pressure increases. You will not get 821 grams of EtOH.

I assume you are as or more interested in how one calculates such a result than the actual result.

Given a headspace volume, temperature and pressure it is easy to calculate the volume of a mole of CO2. The ideal gas law is close enough (cosidering the first virial coefficient changes the answer by 2 psi):
Vm=R*K/P where R = 0.08205 L-Atm/K-mol, K is the temperature in Kelvins
(K = °C + 273.15), P is the pressure in atmospheres (psig + 14.695)/14.695. Divide the headspace volume by Vm to get the moles of CO2 in the headspace and multiply by 44.01 to get the grams of CO2 in the headspace.

Now turn your attention to the beer. The volumes of CO2 dissolved in beer at Fahrenheit temperature T and gauge pressure P are, approximately

V = (P+14.695)*(0.01821+0.090115*EXP(-(T-32)/43.11))

Multiply this by the volume of the beer to get the dissolved volumes of CO2 at STP. At STP a mole of CO2 occupies 22.272 L so divide the product of beer volume and V as calculated above to get the moles in solution and multiply that to get the grams of dissolved CO2.

The assumption is that you would do an Excel spreadsheet into which you put temperature, pressure, headspace volume and beer volume and enter the formulas necessary to calculate the weights and the sum of the weights. It's now a simple matter of trying different pressures until you get the one that gives a total CO2 weight of 783. If you know how to use it the Solver will do this for you automatically.

The bottom line here is that 783 grams is a lot of CO2 ~ 409 liters at 50 °F and 1 atm. If you try to confine that in a 19L space the pressure is going to go up by a factor of about 409/19 = 21.5 i.e. you should expect a pressure increase to about 21.5 atmospheres. In fact because most of the gas dissolves in the beer the pressure is 'only' 18.4 atm but as noted you would never get that far.


-- 17.82 mole CO2 * (44.010 g/ mol) = 784 g CO2

You got about the correct mass of CO2

-- 784 g CO2 / (1.977 g/L) = 396 L CO2 (at 0 deg C)
And about the right volume at STP


-- "Confined to 1L headspace: P = 17.82 **8.314472 * 273.15 / 1L = 40470 Pa
-- 40470 Pa = 5 PSI

But you lose me here. In the first place it isn't confined to 1L but rather 1 L headspace and 18 L beer. If it were 1L the pressure would be 396 atm. Last time I saw the ** notation it was in FORTRAN code and that was a long time ago.
 
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