Please check my first venture into building water

Could someone run this to check my numbers.

5.5 gal batch
4 gallon mash water
4 gallon sparge water

10.5 # 2 Row - US
1.25 # Amber Malt -UK
9 oz Special Roast - US
9 oz Pale Choc - UK
6 oz Crystal 40 - US
2 oz Midnight Wheat - US
.5 oz Acidulated Malt - DE

I'm starting with RO water and this is my first built water. The one thing I don't understand after thumbing through Palmer's book 'Water' and the sticky on here (sorry haven't had time to truly read either), is ... WHAT SHOULD MY IDEAL RA BE? I know the spreadsheet 'reds' the RA when it gets too far off.

According to the EZ water calculator if I add to the full 8 gallons volume of mash/sparge water:
8 grams Calc. Chloride
8 grams Epsom Salt
4 grams Baking Soda
4 grams Chalk

This produces:
CaCO3 - 117
RA - 14(that's positive 14 not negative)
Estimated RoomTemp pH - 5.51

and a Water Profile of:
Calcium - 125
Magnesium - 25
Sodium - 36
Chloride - 127
Sulfate - 103
Chloride/Sulfate Ratio - 1.24

Thank you a ton!!! I'll do this when someone gives me an aswer!

Anyone ... I'm planning to brew today. It's got 1 view for crying out loud and that is me!

I've heard chalk doesn't work very well. Haven't tried it but something to think about. I just did a brew last weekend with a lot of the same ingredients and used mostly calcium chloride and a little bit of gypsum.

From everything I see on here, adjust your pH with either Lactic Acid or Chalk, depending on whether you need to go up or down and then use Calcium Chloride and Gypsum to get your ratio where you want it, and don't fuss with the rest. Just my $0.02

No to the chalk!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And no to the baking soda.

A mash pH of 5.51 is just on the verge of too high, and it'd be better at about 5.3. So definitely take out the baking soda, and throw away the chalk and never use it in brewing.

In all cases, you generally want to keep the chloride under 100. So lower the calcium chloride and I'd lower the sulfate a LOT.

In other words, toss all of it except for a bit of calcium chloride. Less is more, and in this case especially, less is far better.

I would advise you to visit Bru'n water to check. One thing that strikes me as odd is using Acid malt to lower mash pH (With RO and darker malts, I would not think acid malt is necessary) and then using baking soda and chalk to increase mash pH. It would be better to investigate a way to hit your mash pH without adding chalk and baking soda. I do not have experience, but I think I've seen mentioned on here to leave out your darker grains and add them at the very end of the mash. You might research this first.

If you want minerals for flavoring, you can hold off and add them to the boil kettle so they do not impact mash pH.

I punched your numbers in on Bru'n water. Assuming I have your grain bill input correctly using RO water, I get a mash pH of 5.1 with no salt additions. Adding 2.5 grams of baking soda to the mash would get you to 5.4-5.5 mash pH. Adding 2 grams of baking soda to the mash would get you to 5.3 and hit your sodium number. Again, this assumes I have everything entered correctly. I would try yourself to see if you agree.

Depending on style, I would consider dialing back the epsom salt (watch the sulfate) and possibly the calcium chloride. Again, this depends on style and profile you are targeting. Do not feel you have to match a profile. Might be better to start with less and add more next time if you think it needs it.

Ditch the chalk.

Edit: I would still find a way to ditch the baking soda if possible, but at least get rid of the chalk.

So, if no to chalk and no to baking soda...what are you all using to increase your pH with dark malt bills:?

I believe the consensus here is never use chalk. Baking soda can be used but you need to watch your sodium levels and how much carbonate is added. Definitely don't want to overshoot trying to raise pH. You can reserve darker grains to add late in the mash (research late mash additions), add more mash water, or possibly scale back some dark grains to better suit your water (reduce the need for mash adjustments). Then you can add minerals you want for flavoring to the boil kettle. All this assuming RO is used.

Also, AJ has a great sticky on the all grain and partial mash brewing board. Check "potential pitfalls with water in all grain brewing."

The only time I will add baking soda to my brewing water is after taking a pH reading the values are too low, or if I need to increase the sodium level a little. I use all RO water for my brewing and add salts and minerals to adjust them to match the style of beer I plan to brew. Then I add half of EZwatercalculators recommended 88% Lactic Acid addition (I don't use acid malt as a personal choice) and take pH readings in between adding the remaining milliliters one at a time.

I should also point out that I collect my RO water and make my mineral additions the night before and in the morning calibrate my pH meter before adding in my acid additions. Allowing the water additions time to stabilize and then carefully calibrating the pH meter can make a big difference in the accuracy of the readings.

Biscuits said:

So, if no to chalk and no to baking soda...what are you all using to increase your pH with dark malt bills:?

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If the acid malt is left out of this, then the pH should be just dandy without any alkalinity added.

The above water and grainbill is just a mess- adding acid AND alkalinity and still having the mash pH too high. Taking out the alkalinity and the acid malt, reducing the chloride and taking out the epsom salts and gypsum, and targeting a mash pH of 5.3-5.5 is really all that is needed there.

@Yooper, okay, I took your comment as you meant never to add chalk or baking soda, but you're just referring to the OP's situation.

Biscuits said:

@Yooper, okay, I took your comment as you meant never to add chalk or baking soda, but you're just referring to the OP's situation.

Click to expand...

Never use chalk. Only use baking soda when needed.

Biscuits said:

So, if no to chalk and no to baking soda...what are you all using to increase your pH with dark malt bills:?

Click to expand...

Nothing

Mash a little thinner, the acids are diluted and the pH rises.

Anyone can test the usefulness of chalk (it's not seful at all)

Adds ome chalk to water. Result. Cloudy water. It does not dissolve at normal pressures of CO2.

Ever notice how cliffs made of chalk seem to stick around for an awfully long time.



It does not readily dissolve.

No chalk. Chuck it out. I learned this the wrong way.

Biscuits said:

@Yooper, okay, I took your comment as you meant never to add chalk or baking soda, but you're just referring to the OP's situation.

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Yes, and no.

Never use chalk, never, ever. It doesn't dissolve properly and takes eons to react. But yes, use baking soda or lime if needed to raise the mash pH. I never have, as I can add some of my tap water to RO water to raise the bicarbonate if needed for my stout or darker beers, but if someone is using 100% RO water to make a stout, some alkalinity is probably going to be needed.

Gavin C said:

Nothing

Mash a little thinner, the acids are diluted and the pH rises.

Click to expand...

This approach doesn't work for everyone. I do full volume BIAB and sometimes with darker grain bills, I still have to add alkalinity.

@MVKTR2

Forget about RA

Do two things.

1. Build your water with the appropriate salts based on your RO starting point and a target.

Do not click (calculate best additions) as this will spit out numbers based on numbers and not the practicalities of brewing.

Use CaCl2 and CaSO4 in target amounts to reach your objective.

2. Then use this water and your grist to calculate mash pH. Acidify as needed. Forget the idea of adding alkali. Thin the mash should you need to and that will solve that issue.

Forget targeting RA values.

Keep it simple.

Do yourself a favor and forget everything you think you know about RA. It's a flawed concept that confuses more than helps. Thanks Palmer. So I'm saying your entire strategy is basically flawed. Looks at it this way:

1) Set minerals for taste, not pH or RA. Lager? Low minerals. Pale Ale? High minerals. If you don't know how a mineral affects flavor (e.g. baking soda, salt) then run some searches or experiment.

2) Use acids for mash pH. (Lactic, phosphoric, or acid malt).

Biscuits said:

This approach doesn't work for everyone. I do full volume BIAB and sometimes with darker grain bills, I still have to add alkalinity.

Click to expand...

I too use full-volume mashes and evn with stouts there is never a need on my setup to add alkalinity. Thinner mashes like full-volume will negate the need for alkalinity even more. The acids from the dark malts are diluted so much more. I use my tap-water or cut it with RO so get enough alkalinity there

Clearly YMMV

Gavin C said:

I too use full-volume mashes and evn with stouts there is never a need on my setup to add alkalinity. Thinner mashes like full-volume will negate the need for alkalinity even more. The acids from the dark malts are diluted so much more. I use my tap-water or cut it with RO so get enough alkalinity there

Clearly YMMV

Click to expand...

I should have edited my previous post to say that I do not yet use a pH meter and am basing my assumed pH solely on what Bru'n Water is calculating it to be. Maybe I am lowering my alkalinity too much, I won't know for sure until I get an accurate pH meter...but based on what Bru'n Water tells me, which I am told is usually pretty accurate, and based on my tap water, with darker grain bills, I need a touch of alkalinity added.

BTW.."YMMV"??

SpeedYellow said:

Do yourself a favor and forget everything you think you know about RA. It's a flawed concept that confuses more than helps. Thanks Palmer. So I'm saying your entire strategy is basically flawed. Looks at it this way:

1) Set minerals for taste, not pH or RA. Lager? Low minerals. Pale Ale? High minerals. If you don't know how a mineral affects flavor (e.g. baking soda, salt) then run some searches or experiment.

2) Use acids for mash pH. (Lactic, phosphoric, or acid malt).

Click to expand...

Good basic way to think about water. Great advice.

I always say to think of "salts" like just that- salt or other spices. A little is great, and can make a dish of spaghetti go from very good to great. A lot (too much) is going to take a dish of spaghetti from very good (without salt) to inedible (too much). The same is true with brewing- none is usually very good. A little can take it from very good to excellent. Too much can make the beer horrible.

Less is more. No one ever said, "Oh, this beer made from 100% RO water is terrible!" But lots have said, "This beer made with way too many salts and too high bicarbonate is terrible!"

Start low. Then tweak if you like more. That's really the best way to go.

Biscuits said:

..

Click to expand...

YMMV=Your mileage may vary. Took me a few goes seeing that to get it too. Sorry.

This is from another recent thread of a similar topic. Hope this may be useful in some small way. I am no expert but this is how I tackle water chemistry for all my brews.

This is a topic of a recent thread. This is taken from it.

I tackle it this way.


Step 1: Build the water

• Determine the mineral content in your brewing water via a Ward Labs report or use RO water (essentially zero mineral values or negligibly close to 0)
• Determine the water profile you want based on the type of beer your making and personal tastes
• Make the appropriate dilutions of tap-water with RO water to reduce ion levels as needed and add minerals you want to add ions as needed. (Do not use chalk)

Water Adjustment Tool


Step 2: Control mash pH

• Using the adjusted water from above, the grain-bill and planned water volume to calculate a predicted mash pH with an online tool (I use Bru'n Water, it's great)
• Make adjustments if needed to add the required acid (there are some extreme examples where adding alkali may be needed but this is not something I have ever encountered and can't feasibly see this ever occurring)
• Measure mash pH using a well calibrated effective pH meter (pass on the cheapo's, waste of money, as are the strips)
• Compare the predicted with the actual mash pH and note the difference. Use this information to tailor future acid additions.
• Mash pH can be nailed down with some accuracy as your data set grows.
• *A test mimi-mash is another useful tool.

Mash Acidification Calculation


All mashes require acid to get the pH into the target range. This acid comes in various forms. Some of these can be used in any given mash.

• Acid malt
• Roast malt
• Crystal malt
• Added lactic/phosphoric acid
• Largely impractical: Carrying out a beta-glucan rest (for hours) with poorly modified malts

Measuring Mash pH 20-30 minutes into a mash


The thinner the mash the more acid is needed to achieve the same pH as a thicker mash of the same grains with the same water.

Tackle water profile and mash pH completely separately and it's very simple

• Don't concern yourself with the pH of mash water
• Sparge water may need to be acidified with lactic/phosphoric acid
• Don't try to adjust mash pH with mineral additions. Use acid in one or more of the forms previously listed.

I'm not suggesting this is the only way to tackle water chemistry. My approach is simple, based in reasonable science, effective and repeatable. It makes perfect sense to me to do it this way. It is resulting in beers with flavors I enjoy.

Edit: Campden tablets are essential if using water like mine with Chloramine in it. 1/3 tablet for my ~7.5 gallon brewing water.