Foam Galore

So i am not quite sure this is the right forum for this but seeing as there are so many DIY ideas and designs on here i figured id post here. Well i bought my first set up about 3 days ago and got it fully put together and what i thought would be fully dialed in. The issue im having is just tons of foam and head i have to double pour the beer and sometimes triple pour to let enough head settle in order to get a beer i can drink. After hours of research and even more hours of messing and troubleshooting with the thing (this also included about drinking 9 beers in the process lol) i just cant figure out what the best solution is to this. Let me give you guys the lay out of what i have and what I have tried...
Current keg is sam adams boston lager and ive written to the brewmaster for proper PSI/temp storage for their beer and have yet to get a response.
Temperature varies from 36-38 degrees.
Currently i have the PSI set at about 12psi

So everytime i pour a beer if i pour it straight through i get like 60% head in the pint glass. Far beyond acceptable. From being a complete newbie and reading threads and forums I have concluded the problem could be A) the pressure is to high and causing the beer to come out to fast and be agitated B) the warm beer in the tower is creating the foam C) bends in the line can create foam. D) pressure is to low and air is escaping into the beer line creating air pockets which when coming out of the spout release as foam....

ok so here are the solutions i have tried....i have gone back and forth with the pressure regulator trying to get it dialed in perfectly...the issue im having that is really frustrating me is that when i turn the psi up high enough to keep CO2 from escaping into the beer line it just seems like it is pouring WAY to fast and obviously creating head. When i turn the regulator down enough so it seems the beer coming out of the spout is pouring right i get air bubbles in the line =/ it really just seems like i cant find the happy medium...
another solution to help reduce head would be to follow something like
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/pvc-tower-cooling-solution-43072// this....i can for sure see how this helps with the beer keeping cold but i really dont think that is my issue since i get the same result if i pour 1 beer or 3 beers in a row....

my OTHER thought which i think may help the most is to lengthen my beer line to increase the amount of restriction which should let me raise the PSI without increasing the flow out of the spout to eliminate my issue with gas escaping the keg....i read elevation can effect this but seeing as im like 200ft above sea level i really dont think this is a factor. the beer line as it stands now is about 5 feet long which seems to be standard and shouldnt really be the issue.....my only real life friend that i know, who has now moved away and cant help me in person, thinks that perhaps shortening the line would help with the issue....as much as i love him i dont agree with him....so here is my plea for help as im at a crossroads as to what my issue could be....any input would be greatly appreciated as i really dont wanna have to try all these ideas if none of them are gonna work....as i said insulating the tower i dont think will do much and i dont think i should need 9 feet of hose inside my kegerator to increase restriction. but with the psi at 12 it is shooting out of the spout and i remember my buddies kegerator it should be a nice constant fast trickle almost....taking about 6-8 seconds to fill a full pint...i will stop rambling and await assistance from the outside world

oh also another thing my friend told me is that the keg itself may have been overpressurized which is why gas would be escaping with the psi down to 10.5/11 which is about where it needs to be for the spout to pour right....i really havent seen anyone talk about that or know if there is any validity to it? i figured id find out if i get the same results with my next keg luckily this is only a pony so it should only last me a couple weeks anywho just more food for thought

I had trouble understanding that, sorry.

How long are your lines? 5 feet? That's pretty short. Many people with 12 psi are using 10 feet lines. It should take several seconds to fill your glass, a slow pour is actually a good pour. I pour down the side of my glass, and get the perfect amount of head.

My lines are 8-10' long, my kegerator is 40 degrees, and my regulator is at 11 psi. http://sdcollins.home.mindspring.com/ForceCarbonation.html

It does sound overcarbed. Commercial beer often is carbed up pretty highly. You could try turning down your regulator to about 2-3 psi, just enough to push the beer without getting a glass of foam. I think commercial lines are long.

36-38 is WAY too cold, especially for 12 psi... that's some fizzy boston lager in my book...

appreciate the quick reply and yea my lines are about 5 feet long...as i said before tho if i turn down pressure to get a nice slow pour i notice air forming in the line....from what ive read and understand that means that CO2 is exiting the keg and forming as air bubbles in the beer line (line from coupler to faucet) which if left long enough will cause the beer to become flat....i had the regulator set at 10PSI which it seemed like a pretty good pour at that pressure but when i left the regulator at that setting i had about 30 minutes between beers and when i came back i noticed the pocket of air in the beer line directly above the kegerator was a goo 1-2inch pocket of air which just seems like way to much....maybe this site will help illustrate what im saying a little better
http://www.angelfire.com/ks2/beer/homekeg.html

scroll down to "pouring problems and co2 low pressure"

and in response to the fizzines the beer itself taste wonderful....but from what i gather from both of you is that pressure should be lower or the hose should be longer or both...
i understand lowering the pressure will create a better smoother pour which is what im aiming for but shouldnt i worry about my beer going flat seeing these pockets of air in my beer line?

Too low CO2 pressure is only a problem if the beer is carbonated beyond that pressure. In this case, you carbed at 12 PSI, then turning it down to 10 PSI isn't going to be enough pressure to keep the CO2 in solution.

You need to make the lines long enough to drop the pressure, and set it at one pressure and leave it.

Scimmia said:

Too low CO2 pressure is only a problem if the beer is carbonated beyond that pressure. In this case, you carbed at 12 PSI, then turning it down to 10 PSI isn't going to be enough pressure to keep the CO2 in solution.

You need to make the lines long enough to drop the pressure, and set it at one pressure and leave it.

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ah so what you are saying is the air that im seeing in the line has resulted from me starting at 12 psi and then lowering so some of the gas is needing to escape until the system balances out? how long should it take for the system to do this? or once set at the proper psi and the system left "stable" how long should it be before air pockets stop forming or at least significant ones

It will take a while, but realize that you'll have less carbonation if you do it that way.

You're going at this backwards. You need to decide the amount of carbonation you want, then use the table that Yooper posted to determine the pressure required. From there, you need to make sure your liquid line is long enough to drop that amount of pressure so that you don't pour too fast.

Scimmia said:

It will take a while, but realize that you'll have less carbonation if you do it that way.

You're going at this backwards. You need to decide the amount of carbonation you want, then use the table that Yooper posted to determine the pressure required. From there, you need to make sure your liquid line is long enough to drop that amount of pressure so that you don't pour too fast.

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and being a complete noob at what im doing and since i have not heard back from sam adams brewery on their recommended specs what is a good carbonation level for a beer like boston lager? and what i gather from this post is read the chart adjust the psi accordingly and adjust the length of the line to create a smooth pour at the end of the spout....and as for the gas forming in the beer line? with the right psi setting from the chart the system should eventually stabilize and stop creating these air pockets which im assuming would have settled after the first few days if i just got the right psi set and left it alone instead of messing with every other beer i pour

well, if we're not dealing with homebrew, that changes things a bit. I apologize, I missed that in your original post. Many commercial brews are carbonated higher than what most homebrewers use, so it's very helpful to know what the brewery recommends for pressure.

First I would turn off the CO2 and depresurize the tank. (bleeder valve on Sanke connection) Then set your regulator @ around 4psi and turn on the CO2. Give it a second to presurize and start pouring a glass and see what happens. You should be able to slowly bring your pressure up to a more reasonable serving pressure.

With that said 10' of beer line is better at decreasing the foam, but if that takes up too much room contact your LBHS and ask for 5' of "Foam Free" Tubing... It has a thicker wall and sometimes has a nylon braid inside for strenght. This line creates the same 10psi backpressure that the 10' tubing does.

I have extremely limited space and I have a picnic tap on my corny keg with 12" foam free tubing and I get a perfect pour every time. I have even adjust the PSI from 6 to 12 and the amount of foam increase is negligable!

BTW, Sam Adams should have the proper serving temp painted in a ring around the belly of the keg. Like below...on the left is a 1/6th keg of Sam Adams Boston Lager.

Scimmia said:

well, if we're not dealing with homebrew, that changes things a bit. I apologize, I missed that in your original post. Many commercial brews are carbonated higher than what most homebrewers use, so it's very helpful to know what the brewery recommends for pressure.

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ive done some searches online and really cant find any recommendations is there a helpful site that someone may have a link to that has commercial brewed beer brewery settings??

No matter what the setting, it comes down to your liquid line not being long enough. You already know it's going to take more than 10 PSI, because at 10, the carbon dioxide was coming out of suspension. Most homebrewers will just use 10 foot of 3/16 line and forget it. In a bar setting, taking an extra 10-15 seconds to pour a pint adds up quick, at home, who cares?

Loxnar-
What is the ID of your beer line? It should be 3/16" for a short run. If it's 1/4" there will not be enough restriction to prevent foaming. It does not sound like much but the difference is huge. The brewery will most likely not answer your questions, they don't deal with PSI but volumes of co2. They are assuming the serving location has a properly balanced system. Cooling the tower is great but if you aren't noticing improvement after pulling a few pints through (making the faucet very cold) then that's not the real issue. Best way to start it to get 8 or 10 foot of 3/16" ID beer line. Make a nice coil of the excess line and lay it on the keg, you don't want to have it hanging all over the place. Zip ties are handy. Turn off the gas and bleed the pressure like mmurray suggested. Turn the adjuster on the regulator out until it's not pressing the diaphragm (you will feel it loosen) and then turn on the tank with the shutoff in the off position. Slowly raise the pressure to about 10 psi. When you back off the screw on a regulator, it does not bleed off the excess pressure, only removing beer from the keg or bleeding the pressure at the coupler will do that.
Try this out and let us know how it works out. If 10 psi is giving you a good pour but too slow, try raising it up a couple psi to 12.

Scimmia said:

No matter what the setting, it comes down to your liquid line not being long enough. You already know it's going to take more than 10 PSI, because at 10, the carbon dioxide was coming out of suspension. Most homebrewers will just use 10 foot of 3/16 line and forget it. In a bar setting, taking an extra 10-15 seconds to pour a pint adds up quick, at home, who cares?

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yea im order 5 more feet of line and get the beer tower cold...if i have more issues ill come back =) will post the results.....hmmm other question i guess any local places i could expect to find this stuff or pretty much only ordering the tube and fittings online?

mmurray said:

First I would turn off the CO2 and depresurize the tank. (bleeder valve on Sanke connection) Then set your regulator @ around 4psi and turn on the CO2. Give it a second to presurize and start pouring a glass and see what happens. You should be able to slowly bring your pressure up to a more reasonable serving pressure.

With that said 10' of beer line is better at decreasing the foam, but if that takes up too much room contact your LBHS and ask for 5' of "Foam Free" Tubing... It has a thicker wall and sometimes has a nylon braid inside for strenght. This line creates the same 10psi backpressure that the 10' tubing does.

I have extremely limited space and I have a picnic tap on my corny keg with 12" foam free tubing and I get a perfect pour every time. I have even adjust the PSI from 6 to 12 and the amount of foam increase is negligable!

BTW, Sam Adams should have the proper serving temp painted in a ring around the belly of the keg. Like below...on the left is a 1/6th keg of Sam Adams Boston Lager.

Click to expand...

sorry again for my newbness what is LBHS =/ and yes i know the temp im storing it at is fine i just wasnt sure what their recommendation would be on pressure or carbonation

Any local homebrew shop that carries kegging supplies will have the line. If you don't have a local place, both www.chicompany.com and www.morebeer.com are in Cali.

if i have more issues ill come back =)

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I would hope you would come back anyway

bendavanza said:

Loxnar-
What is the ID of your beer line? It should be 3/16" for a short run. If it's 1/4" there will not be enough restriction to prevent foaming. It does not sound like much but the difference is huge. The brewery will most likely not answer your questions, they don't deal with PSI but volumes of co2. They are assuming the serving location has a properly balanced system. Cooling the tower is great but if you aren't noticing improvement after pulling a few pints through (making the faucet very cold) then that's not the real issue. Best way to start it to get 8 or 10 foot of 3/16" ID beer line. Make a nice coil of the excess line and lay it on the keg, you don't want to have it hanging all over the place. Zip ties are handy. Turn off the gas and bleed the pressure like mmurray suggested. Turn the adjuster on the regulator out until it's not pressing the diaphragm (you will feel it loosen) and then turn on the tank with the shutoff in the off position. Slowly raise the pressure to about 10 psi. When you back off the screw on a regulator, it does not bleed off the excess pressure, only removing beer from the keg or bleeding the pressure at the coupler will do that.
Try this out and let us know how it works out. If 10 psi is giving you a good pour but too slow, try raising it up a couple psi to 12.

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yea my ID to my hose is 3/16 i just think it needs to be longer or as mmuray suggested perhaps a different type of tubing....i just need to find some also yea i believe untapping the keg and bleeding the coupler and resetting the regulator to a lower pressure....i do have a question before i give it a whirl, with the proper psi set and a good pour with low foam is achieved should i no longer be getting the air bubbles in the liquid line....i just dont want my beer to go flat that would be the most inhumane thing of this whole situation

Scimmia said:

Any local homebrew shop that carries kegging supplies will have the line. If you don't have a local place, both www.chicompany.com and www.morebeer.com are in Cali.



I would hope you would come back anyway

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hehe i never really thought much about brewing my own beer but after this experience and checking this site out i really am gonna consider brewing my own once i get some spare cash....ive always been a huge beer fan ive tried probably 300-400 differnet kinds of beers just never brewed my own =/ and yea i have a local brew shop i imagine they have keg equipment as well i will give um a call....really appreciate all the help guys i just want my perfect pint <3

also morebeer.com has a store like 15 minutes from here =) go me!

loxnar said:

hehe i never really thought much about brewing my own beer but after this experience and checking this site out i really am gonna consider brewing my own once i get some spare cash....ive always been a huge beer fan ive tried probably 300-400 differnet kinds of beers just never brewed my own =/ and yea i have a local brew shop i imagine they have keg equipment as well i will give um a call....really appreciate all the help guys i just want my perfect pint <3

also morebeer.com has a store like 15 minutes from here =) go me!

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Sounds like the Concord store is my thinking, they're 26 minutes away from me should I get up to my happy cruise speed. Dublin and San Leandro HBS or Williams also in San Leandro but by phone orders only. A almost empty hole in the wall place Williams is, you call they then call a supplier and then ship to you. I walked into their business thru the back door and saw enough.

loxnar said:

sorry again for my newbness what is LBHS =/ and yes i know the temp im storing it at is fine i just wasnt sure what their recommendation would be on pressure or carbonation

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Sorry I'm a typing Tard... I should have typed LHBS which is Local Home Brew Shop.

loxnar said:

i just dont want my beer to go flat

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It won't go flat. If it's 'balanced' at 12 psi and you move it to 6psi, then yes, some CO2 will come out of solution to reach equilibrium, but it would take days with a tank and a closed system. If you reach a balance and don't like the carbonation, you can bump it up and let it sit a week, it will carb up.

flat beer means no CO2 dissolved in it. As long as you have pressure on it, it won't go flat. And if it drops off too much, you can increase it.

It does take patience, however.
good luck.

Hang Glider said:

It won't go flat. If it's 'balanced' at 12 psi and you move it to 6psi, then yes, some CO2 will come out of solution to reach equilibrium, but it would take days with a tank and a closed system. If you reach a balance and don't like the carbonation, you can bump it up and let it sit a week, it will carb up.

flat beer means no CO2 dissolved in it. As long as you have pressure on it, it won't go flat. And if it drops off too much, you can increase it.

It does take patience, however.
good luck.

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This was gonna be my next question....i have been much more patient the past couple days....first thing i did was turn the C02 completely off...then i bled the system by pulling the release valve on the Sankey. I let it set like that overnight for about 24 hours then bled it again. After the second time i turned the gas on and set the pressure to about 2PSI and let the system sit for a couple hours....then i went back and slowly turned the PSI up until i got a good slow but solid pour. I let it sit there for another day or so and have gone back trying to turn the pressure up but it seems I cant go any higher. 7.5/8 PSI seems to be about the limit to where i can still get a good pour without creating tons of head. I bled the tank again and am gonna let it sit for another day at that pressure and see if i can turn it up....in regards to the previous post i guess my question is what level PSI should i expect to keep it at to not allow the beer to lose carbonation. If my problem is solved with a low PSI but then i cant keep the beer with the optimal pressure....what should my next step be? just increasing the length of the liquid line so i can increase the PSI without increasing the end result out of the spout? or should i stop stressing so much leave the PSI alone and stfu and enjoy my sam adams?

Loxnar:
Correct. If you lengthen the lines, you can run a higher pressure and get a nice pour. It's better to err on the long side then the short. If the line is a couple feet too long, it just means your pour will be a bit slower, which is preferable to a short line causing lots of foam. With the proper pressure/teperature (these are related and effect each other) you can have your beer at the right volume of co2, otherwise it might be too much or to little. Most commercial beer in the USA is stored at 36-38&#730; at 12 PSI. Other styles have different requirements but those figures are a good starting point. SOme like their ales at closer to cellar temps and with less carbonation. Ultimately it's up to you but the bottom line is, your beverage line is probably a few feet too short. Your PSI gauge may be inaccurate as well but my money and experience point to the length of the beverage tubing.

bendavanza said:

Loxnar:
Correct. If you lengthen the lines, you can run a higher pressure and get a nice pour. It's better to err on the long side then the short. If the line is a couple feet too long, it just means your pour will be a bit slower, which is preferable to a short line causing lots of foam. With the proper pressure/teperature (these are related and effect each other) you can have your beer at the right volume of co2, otherwise it might be too much or to little. Most commercial beer in the USA is stored at 36-38&#730; at 12 PSI. Other styles have different requirements but those figures are a good starting point. SOme like their ales at closer to cellar temps and with less carbonation. Ultimately it's up to you but the bottom line is, your beverage line is probably a few feet too short. Your PSI gauge may be inaccurate as well but my money and experience point to the length of the beverage tubing.

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<3
yea i get a good pour at just under 9PSI...beer still tastes fine pour is great minus the first pour first beer from the warm tower n spout ( gonna put some copper tubing up to try n fix this). gonna grab 7ft of hosing this weekend at the local brew store this weekend and be at ease with this. hopefully this will alow me to run between 10-12PSI. OH....i will also be buying my first home brew set up =) im overly excited about that...ill post here sometime next week, or perhaps when i try brewing my beer, and let you guys know how it turned out....once again really appreciate all the input =)

So back to update. As far as the kegerator goes I went down to the brew store to pick up 10 feet or so of 3/16 tubing...what do ya know they were out =/ The kid (yes i doubt he was a week over 21) was swearing up and down that using 1/4inch tubing at 5 ft long would solve my problem....so with no other options and a 40 minute drive down the road i decided to give it a try....got about 7 feet of 1/4 inch tubing. Well i get this home and give it a try and it seems to exacerbate the problem even more...I was having to keep an even lower PSI to get a decent pour. So logic tells me the tube is more open (a larger diameter) so there is less pressure created by the hose....So 3 days later i have gone back and bought 12 feet of 3/16 tubing and now i can run the tap at 12psi no problem....the pour seems ummmm intermittent....for the most part its good but it kinda does a small burp every now and then. My assumption is the hose is to long and needs either more pressure or less hose....my buddy told me to just cut off 6 inches or so at a time until i get the desired pour at that pressure....wanted to see what you guys think before i go cutting the hose. I know 12 feet is long but i just didnt wanna drive out there again lol.

complete side note on that first trip i bought my first home brewing kit and last saturday brewed my first beer ( a porter)....man what an awesome experience. While this one ferments i picked up another batch of brew....just need a little time to pass before i get my hands back on the kettle! soooo aside from the issue mentioned above, once i learn something about brewing i assume i will be back =)

Yes the "Kid" needs to learn Fractions! The 1/4" line should be 10' and the 3/16" line should be around 5'.

The 3/16" line provides 2lbs per foot of back pressure so if you are running at 12psi you should have 6' of line for equilibrium. The 1/4" line provides 1lb per foot of back pressure and should be 12' long for 12psi for equilibrium.

Longer lenghts are generally ok, but short is where you run into the foaming issues.

Good Luck and welcome to homebrewing!

yeah twice the length for 1/4" is a general rule of thumb to go by, so he was dead wrong.

I would use 1/4" if I were to route my line somewhere far from my kegs (like in a bar situation)

Also, not all tubing has the same resistance per ft/ID. The burping you are getting, that's odd. Unless there is a bad seal in your coupler that is letting some gas into your fluid line, I'm stumped on that one. Make sure your coil of tubing is routed nicely. long up and downs can cause bubbles etc.

the burping is common when the tower gets hot. pull 3 cups in a row and you'll see it go away.

it should go away with cooling.