Help ID bitter off-flavor (taste like tonic)

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brewzombie

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Hi everyone.

I've have a persistent off-flavor that has plagued my brewing for the last 2 years. It's intensely bitter and lingers on the tongue and throat. I've read the descriptions of off-flavor's and I can't quite fit it into any of the categories. The best description I can give is that it tastes like quinine (tonic water) and sometimes the beer is just unpleasant and sometimes undrinkable.

The most recent casualty is a 40 IBU pale ale that tasted great at bottling, but turned bad after 3-4 weeks in the bottle (conditioned at 19-22 C). This beer an all-grain batch, which mashed/sparged at regular temps. I don't check pH but do monitor temperature. It was fermented 1 week in primary and 3 weeks in secondary (dry hopped 1 week), all at 19-22 C. I try to be careful not to oxidize when autosiphoning during the transfer.

I use campden tablets in my brewing water to neutralize any chlorine/chloramine (I haven't used campden in my sugar-water or starsan solutions...hmm).

I clean my gear/bottles by soaking in PBW, rinse thoroughly and sanitize with starsan (ie there is no chlorine from cleaners etc.).

I bottle by autosiphoning from a carboy to bottles using a plastic bottling wand. The bottling sugar was poured into the carboy (maybe oxidation?) since it's hard to autosiphon 1 cup of bottling sugar.

I've done my best to account for possible culprits like green beer (too young), astringency (hot mash/over sparging), oxidation (splashing hot wort or fermented beer), and chlorophenols (chlorine in water, clearners etc). My last thought is maybe wild yeast, but I try to clean my plastic and have no obvious scratches. I can try really soaking my autosiphon and replacing the tubing and bottling wand, but that's about all I can think of.

Thoughts? Has anyone had a quinine-like off-flavor and eliminated it?
 
My vote is that you are underpitching your beers- stressed out yeast can produce some flavors I suppose is similar to quinine now that I think about it- or you do have an infection in your plastic. If you've some sort of wild yeast strain or bacteria hanging out, that will certainly do it. If your beer truly tastes fine at bottling, then it is probably the latter. That being said, it's time to replace your buckets and tubing; you aren't getting rid of those microbes, I don't care how much StarSan you throw at it.
 
I'm leaning towards the infection (wild yeast or bacteria) as I typically use use starter cultures. I really don't want to throw out the autosiphon, but if a PBW soak overnight won't get rid of the bugs, I guess I'll have to. Any chance I can keep my primary bucket? The beer was delicious before touching the bottling equipment.
 
Do you filter your water ? It could be your picking up some alkaline from your water . If you brought up gushing then I'd say infection from your plastic parts and replace those .
 
I don't filter my water, but Vancouver water is super soft and the beers I make are all pale in color. The "predicted" pH for the mash are always in range and I've even used pH 5.2 stabilizer in some batches, with the same result. I've had gushers previously, but not yet on this batch. If it is an infection, I think I slowed it down with controlling the conditioning temp and then going straight to the fridge after 3-4 weeks. Thinking back on the batch before this one, I left them a few months at room temp because they tasted bad (same bitter quinine taste) and I was hoping they'd improve, but many of those did turn into gushers.
 
Infection is a possibility, but if you are reasonably careful about sanitation, it is not likely. If you are pitching the correct amount of yeast and controling fermentation temperature, I would look at water and wort oxygenation next. How do you aerate or oxygenate the wort? What is the alkalinity level of your water?

If you are getting gushers and you are not over priming or bottling too soon, then it is infection.
 
How consistent is the quinine flavor? Is this happening every batch, or just something that pops up now and then? Do you use 5.2 stabilizer in every batch? Any other water treatments besides campden tablets?

If you ask the water gurus over in the brew science forum they'll give you a big list of reasons why 5.2 doesn't work and how it just adds a bunch of salt to the water.
 
Cosmo:

  • I'm reasonably careful about sanitation (I've worked in biochem/microbiology labs), but I admit I could be better about cleaning my tubing and autosiphon with PBW as I usually just flush with water and starsan after use and flush with starsan before use. I usually only use PBW/oxiclean free for the buckets/carboys/bottles.
  • I usually pitch optimal yeast quantities, but I merely used a Wyeast activator smack pack this time...however it was super fresh (by date). The bitter flavour is consistent from batch to batch so I don't think this is the problem. The airlock started going within 12 hrs.
  • Tap water in Vancouver is essentially RO water with a pH 6.5 - 7.2 (depending on the reservoir source).
  • I oxygenate the wort by pouring the chilled wort through a sanitized screen and sealing the primary bucket with a stopper and shaking it on the floor for about 5 min (occasionally opening the stopper to let more air in).
  • I'm not meticulous about bottling sugar quantities but always add 3/4 cup corn sugar for 5-6 gal batches. The gushers don't always happen, but are pretty common when I let the bottles sit at room temp for more than ~2 months or so. They don't necessarily hit the ceiling when they gush, but appear way over carbed.

bdh:

  • The off-flavor is consistent. "Quinine" is the best way I can think of to describe it. It's slightly variable from bottle to bottle, but this batch is one of the more drinkable (barely), which as I said I think may be due to keeping the bottles at 19-22C for 3-4 weeks and then refrigerating. It's in every batch to some extent, often much worse. I've pitched more batches down the drain than you can imagine and still keep trying.
  • I don't use any other water treatments, but have decided to add CaCl2 and CaSO4 in the boil (not mash) next batch to help with yeast health and hop flavour, respectively, and to get the mineral quantities to preferred ranges for a pale ale. I didn't use pH 5.2 stabilizer in this batch but used it religiously for about a year. I've predicted the mash pH in Bru'n water and it was 5.2 for the current batch. I've since adjusted the malt profile to predict a pH 5.4 for the next batch for what's that worth.

Thanks for the replies! This is helpful!
 
i'd try using all RO water for the next batch and use the Water Chemistry Primer as a guide for water treatments

it's the easiest thing to isolate at this point

i would think you'd see/taste other signs of infections if it's happening for every batch for 2 years
 
Have you tried bleaching everything? I had about 4 batches in a row turn out horrible due to a medicinal / band-aid flavor. I obsessed over chlorophenols coming from my water chlorine but it turned out to be an infection that I think was in my carboy. After bleaching and following the technique of swishing around a rag inside of the carboy, my next batch was free of that horrible flavor / smell.

There is some taboo surrounding bleach but IMO it is a better and cheaper option than buying new equipment and pretty much a sure way to eliminate any infections. Heck, if you are thinking of tossing equipment out anyway, might as well try a round of bleach.
 
Thanks again.

terrapinj: My tap water is essentially RO (check it out ). I only use campden tablets as a precaution. I'm using the "Bru'n water" spreadsheet for the next batch to get the preferred salts, but I really can't see this being an issue. I've seen the water chemistry primer, but I like the supposed precision of Bru'n water.

ColumbusAmongus: Can I bleach my plastics without leaving residual chlorine? I'd gladly bleach a glass carboy, but I'm worried that the bleach itself would lead to chlorophenols unless I can rinse sufficiently. What's the forum consensus on bleaching plastics? What is the recommended bleach concentration? I'd love to salvage my plastics, but I've always heard it's near impossible to kill the buggers once they colonize plastic.
 
I think adding some calcium would be good thing to try both for yeast health and possibly oxalate issues. I'm not sure how much credibility this theory would have, but I've heard oxalate can have a very harsh (borderline burning sensation) taste. Normally most of it precipitates out when it binds calcium (and forms beerstone), but in very soft water it can be an issue. It's really rare, but oxalate crystals can form in beer and cause nucleation sites which promote gushers too. Oxalate can also build up on your equipment and make sanitation difficult, but the PBW you're using should take it off.

If you want a pseudo-test for an oxalate flavor, if you boil spinach in a small amount of water the leftover water should have some oxalate in it.

Brewing in what is essentially RO water can be done, but there are issues with it. If you repost this over in the brew science forum you'll probably get some pretty detailed answers about what could be going on.
 
Thanks bdh. That's encouraging. I'm planning a number of tweaks for the next batch (including adding calcium to the water) to try to eliminate anything and everything that could be an issue. The flavour is so noticeable that I can't believe it's just a minor tweak, but sometimes a series of minor things can add up to something serious. This is the primary reason why I think it's an infection. If it is, I think I'll try to clean my equipment with PBW then water then bleach+vinegar (24 hrs soak), then campden-treated water and of course starsan before use. With everything I'm doing, one of them has to be the culprit. If this doesn't work I'll be back here crying about my failure and buy new plastics.
 
My vote is that you are underpitching your beers-

+1 to this. Wyeast smack packs contain barely enough cells when first bagged. Depending on transport, etc., they can easily lead to under pitching, particularly with high OG brews. What OG was this last batch? I'd suggest making a healthy 1.5-2L starter next time, and see if things improve.

Question: Does the off flavor seem to disapper (improve) as the beer warms in the glass - almost as if it were degassing?
 
Thanks for your comments PLOVE:

It's certainly possible that underpitching contributed with this batch, for the reasons you mentioned, but I've experienced this flavor with/without starters. The OG was only 1.048. I have a stir plate and usually use Mr. Malty to predict starter size so I'll make sure to use one with my next batch to be on the safe side. I was actually just trying to simplify the last time to see if I could narrow down what was going on. This in combo with my other tweaks may be the magic formula.

I'm testing your question about whether the off flavor dissipates as it warms in the glass. After 5 minutes, it's still there...15 minutes, still there...30 min still there (but the beer is quite different now). The warm flat-ish beer has a more subdued quinine flavor, but it's still present. What would it mean if the flavor disappeared completely?
 
I'm leaning towards the infection (wild yeast or bacteria) as I typically use use starter cultures. I really don't want to throw out the autosiphon, but if a PBW soak overnight won't get rid of the bugs, I guess I'll have to. Any chance I can keep my primary bucket? The beer was delicious before touching the bottling equipment.

Soaking it overnight in PBW? Yeesh. I get a film after only 20 minutes on my plastic stuff that I either need to wipe/scrub off or use StarSan to get rid of. A long soak in StarSan would be better. Or put it through your dishwasher (top rack only) with no soap or rinse agents and then StarSan it. A long soak in StarSan should take care of any bugs you've picked up, or just spend the $15 and get a new siphon.

To help with the general techniques aspect, if you don't give a rinse with StarSan after cleaning, do so from now on. You'll get rid of all the alkali cleaner and any bugs on there at the time.

When did you last replace your hosing? I do it yearly, if not more often since it's so cheap.
 
Soaking it overnight in PBW? Yeesh. I get a film after only 20 minutes on my plastic stuff that I either need to wipe/scrub off or use StarSan to get rid of. A long soak in StarSan would be better. Or put it through your dishwasher (top rack only) with no soap or rinse agents and then StarSan it. A long soak in StarSan should take care of any bugs you've picked up, or just spend the $15 and get a new siphon.

To help with the general techniques aspect, if you don't give a rinse with StarSan after cleaning, do so from now on. You'll get rid of all the alkali cleaner and any bugs on there at the time.

When did you last replace your hosing? I do it yearly, if not more often since it's so cheap.
I meant an overnight soak in bleach+vinegar, after a short PBW soak. It may seem excessive, but I might as well. It's either that or replace everything. I will however just replace the siphon tubing outright (it has been awhile). And thanks for the tip about rinsing with StarSan after cleaning (for storage). I don't usually do that so that may help. Cheers.
 
Brewzombie,
Sounds like you've pretty much ruled the idea of a underpitching. The few times I've underpitched and it resulted in some off flavors, I've noticed that they tend to disappear as the beer warms. I'm guessing this is because they cause is organic solvent-like products due to stressed fermentation. They evaporate more easily at room temp. This approach never saved the beer completely, but sometimes made it drinkable. The other thing that can happen is any CO2 bite (overcarbonating) softens, but this doesn't sound like your problem if your bottling. Have you ever tried running your bottles through the dishwasher sans soap/jetdry? Hot cycle pretty good at sterilization if bottles are clean. Would let you test whether the PBW or related chemical byproduct is the culprit.

Bummer. It's frustrating to have a systemic problem you can't track down.
Good luck
PLOVE
 
Brewzombie,
Sounds like you've pretty much ruled the idea of a underpitching. The few times I've underpitched and it resulted in some off flavors, I've noticed that they tend to disappear as the beer warms. I'm guessing this is because they cause is organic solvent-like products due to stressed fermentation. They evaporate more easily at room temp. This approach never saved the beer completely, but sometimes made it drinkable. The other thing that can happen is any CO2 bite (overcarbonating) softens, but this doesn't sound like your problem if your bottling. Have you ever tried running your bottles through the dishwasher sans soap/jetdry? Hot cycle pretty good at sterilization if bottles are clean. Would let you test whether the PBW or related chemical byproduct is the culprit.

Bummer. It's frustrating to have a systemic problem you can't track down.
Good luck
PLOVE
I wish I had a dishwasher (for so many reasons), but this old apartment is lacking one big time. Hopefully my bottle rinsing is good enough. I have a tap-mounted bottle washer for rinsing and vinator for starsan.
 
  • I oxygenate the wort by pouring the chilled wort through a sanitized screen and sealing the primary bucket with a stopper and shaking it on the floor for about 5 min (occasionally opening the stopper to let more air in).

That much shaking is way overkill, especially for a 1.048 beer. Try 30 seconds of shaking and see if that helps. It could be fusels caused by too much oxygen in the wort. I only say this since it is a fairly low gravity. Normally you can't over oxygenate by shaking. According to Greg Doss of Wyeast, 40 seconds of shaking will get you 8 ppm of dissolved O2. That should be plenty for a 1.048 beer. The fact that the off flavor goes away after leaving it out for a while further supports that it could be fusels.

1 pkg of yeast should be fine for this gravity. You could do a starter, but I don't think that is the issue.

I still don't think infection is the issue either. Don't use bleach. It can cause more harm than good and can damage your equipment. There is no need for anything stronger than PBW and starsan for cleaning and sanitizing. I soak my hoses in warm PBW or Oxyclean Free for a few hours. Then rinse with hot water. When i'm ready to use them, I soak in Starsan for a few minutes. Definately clean right after you use your equipment. I have never had an infection when doing this.
 
I keep thinking back to your comment about a number of "gushers" you have had. I have had this happen to me once. This is caused by wild yeast, a bacterial infection or low fermentation temps. If your beer tastes good at bottling as you stated , then I would tend to side with suspecting your bottling equipment having some type of bug living in it.

My solution was to re-purpose my bottling bucket to hold grain and discard all the hose,the bottling wand and the auto siphon. The cost of replacing you bottling equipment is a small price to pay if your beers are turning out with an off taste and gushing.
 
That much shaking is way overkill, especially for a 1.048 beer. Try 30 seconds of shaking and see if that helps. It could be fusels caused by too much oxygen in the wort. I only say this since it is a fairly low gravity. Normally you can't over oxygenate by shaking. According to Greg Doss of Wyeast, 40 seconds of shaking will get you 8 ppm of dissolved O2. That should be plenty for a 1.048 beer. The fact that the off flavor goes away after leaving it out for a while further supports that it could be fusels.

1 pkg of yeast should be fine for this gravity. You could do a starter, but I don't think that is the issue.

I still don't think infection is the issue either. Don't use bleach. It can cause more harm than good and can damage your equipment. There is no need for anything stronger than PBW and starsan for cleaning and sanitizing. I soak my hoses in warm PBW or Oxyclean Free for a few hours. Then rinse with hot water. When i'm ready to use them, I soak in Starsan for a few minutes. Definately clean right after you use your equipment. I have never had an infection when doing this.
I didn't think it was possible to over oxygenate the wort using regular air... hmm. I should mention that I've had this off-flavour with 1.056 OG batches and only started shaking the wort because I was trying to rule out poorly-oxygenated wort as a factor. Maybe I'll reduce my shaking to 1 min. I'd love to actually, since shaking is darn tiring.

The amount of bleach I was thinking of using was only 1 oz per 5 gallon, fully diluted in water with the same amount of vinegar added subsequently. This is the concentration I've most seen discussed on the forum and I recently heard endorsed by the maker of Starsan. I recall that guy even said it could be used as a "no-rinse" sanitizer, but I plan to rinse with campden-treated water anyway. I'm not planning on making this part of my regular regimen, but just to hopefully kill any remaining bugs after PBW cleaning. I'll continue to use Starsan prior to brewing.

It might be an infection or it might not (I suspect it is at least in part). I've never been very good with fully dissembling and cleaning my bottling gear in PBW, usually just using starsan. Lesson learned! My next planned batch should have a tonne of tweaks based on everyone's feedback and my own research so I'm hoping any infection will be gone and my process/recipe will be sufficiently refined. I'm actually optimistic that THIS batch will finally meet my expectations.

Thanks for all the feedback. It's great to have everyone's support. It's really helps.
 
I didn't think it was possible to over oxygenate the wort using regular air... hmm. I should mention that I've had this off-flavour with 1.056 OG batches and only started shaking the wort because I was trying to rule out poorly-oxygenated wort as a factor. Maybe I'll reduce my shaking to 1 min. I'd love to actually, since shaking is darn tiring.

I agree. I don't think you can over oxygenate with just air for a 1.056 beer. At least that is the common wisdom. You could try 1 min of shaking. That should be plenty. Not sure what the problem is. Someone else suggested adding calcium. That is a good idea also. Good luck and let us know what you find out. I have seen similar threads and I have not seen a difinitive solution. Maybe you can help crack the code.
 
Hey Brewzombie - I am having this precise issue. You have hit the nail on the head when you say it tastes like tonic. I was battling to describe it initially as its not exactly like astringency, but jeez its ordinary.

I first noticed it when I switched from BIAB to an electric brewery about 6 or 7 batches ago and it has been present in all of them except 1. The switch coincided with me using a different grain mill for the first time so at first I blamed that, but then I switched back to an old trusted mill and the problem persisted.

I think its either...

1) sparge related
2) mash related
3) boil related (increased hop utilistation in elec boil perhaps?)

Im going to use my mates mash tun from his 3V rig this weekend to see if that changes anything. If its still there, I will try boiling in a different kettle. If that also doesnt fix it then I will be completely stumped.

I have done dozens of batches prior to this and am almost certain its not a fermentation issue. Im familiar with the gamut of off flavours that poor ferments can make and its not one of those. I think its a form of astringency related to something I am doing wrong.
 
Hey Brewzombie - I am having this precise issue. You have hit the nail on the head when you say it tastes like tonic. I was battling to describe it initially as its not exactly like astringency, but jeez its ordinary.

I first noticed it when I switched from BIAB to an electric brewery about 6 or 7 batches ago and it has been present in all of them except 1. The switch coincided with me using a different grain mill for the first time so at first I blamed that, but then I switched back to an old trusted mill and the problem persisted.

I think its either...

1) sparge related
2) mash related
3) boil related (increased hop utilistation in elec boil perhaps?)

Im going to use my mates mash tun from his 3V rig this weekend to see if that changes anything. If its still there, I will try boiling in a different kettle. If that also doesnt fix it then I will be completely stumped.

I have done dozens of batches prior to this and am almost certain its not a fermentation issue. Im familiar with the gamut of off flavours that poor ferments can make and its not one of those. I think its a form of astringency related to something I am doing wrong.

Hi YZ250,

I'm bottling a batch this weekend, which has a slew of tweaks to my process based on forum feedback and my own research. I'll report back with an update when I have some news...I'm cautiously optimistic, but I'm already planning additional future modifications. Describing the exact taste of the off-flavor has been a challenge for sure. My thinking is to try to assume that the flavor is a combo of things and I'm doing my best to correct any imperfections/short-cuts found at all stages in the process. Let us know how your next batch goes and I'll do the same. Maybe our issues are related, maybe they're not, but the lessons learned should make us better brewers regardless.

The "bitter" aspect to the flavor flags several possibilities to me, which may be present in any combination:
a. fusel alcohols (hot fermentation, too much exposure to trub/break material, etc)
b. astringency (non-optimal mash pH, oversparging too hot, poor grain crush, etc)
c. astringency (over-hopping)
d. astringency (infection)
f. solvent flavors (hot fermentation + oxidation)
g. ?bitter? flavors from stressed yeast (underpitching, low/hi oxygen, insufficient calcium?)

My recommendation is to learn as much as you can about each of these possibilities and perfect your process to address each. From what you've said, mash pH and over/hot sparging seem likely culprits, but you never know.

The other option is to have someone with a trained palate taste your tonic-beer. I haven't done this yet, but may do so if this batch fails.

Good luck!
 
In my opinion you should try to brew a batch using only RO water (and adding some minerals of course). I'm especially sure of that when you mention that you brew mostly pale beers. Don't just measure PH because chloride to sulfate ratio is also important in perception of bitternes and aftertaste. If this doesn't work then(but I bet it would) then change you equipment(hoses, buckets etc)
 
Hi Brew Zombie,

I am having a mate over this weekend who is a member of my brewclub to see what he thinks. I might end up taking some in for further distribution to see if anyone else can pick the fault, im almost certain they will all just say astringency though. I actually have a batch fermenting out now (crash chilling at the moment) and upon first taste it doesnt seem to have the fault...so heres hoping. I can always pick this fault up out of the fermenter too, which rules out something happening in the bottle or keg. Are yours faulted out of the fermenter or not until bottling is complete?

YZ
 
Take a very close look at your water, in particular Sodium, Sulfate, and Chloride....also your alkalinity. Also get a pH of your mash. Acidifying your sparge water to between 5-6 pH also helps. You have tried a lot of things and it appears water is the common factor.
 
If you go with bleach (and you might as well try before pitching everything) here is what we were told by the EPA to use to disinfect equipment and for sampling: 30 mls bleach in 1 gallon is around 400 mg/L. This will not harm faucets or fixtures, but will disinfect very well. It rinses easily and can be used throughout brewing area in case air born yeast/bacteria are elevated. Making a five gallon batch will let you soak everything overnight.
Also, try getting a hydrometer reading at bottling, then do a hydro reading a month later on a bad batch. See if your number drops much lower. This could help you discern if it is a bacteria/yeast that is the cause.

Do your bottles develop a ring around the inside of the neck at the beer level?
 
Hi Brew Zombie,

I am having a mate over this weekend who is a member of my brewclub to see what he thinks. I might end up taking some in for further distribution to see if anyone else can pick the fault, im almost certain they will all just say astringency though. I actually have a batch fermenting out now (crash chilling at the moment) and upon first taste it doesnt seem to have the fault...so heres hoping. I can always pick this fault up out of the fermenter too, which rules out something happening in the bottle or keg. Are yours faulted out of the fermenter or not until bottling is complete?

YZ

YZ250: My off-flavour is most detectable after bottling and seems to worsen with age, which is indicative of infection, although I've heard some flavours worsen with carbonation/cold temps. I'm going to bottle soon and will pay close attention to see if I detect it.
 
If you go with bleach (and you might as well try before pitching everything) here is what we were told by the EPA to use to disinfect equipment and for sampling: 30 mls bleach in 1 gallon is around 400 mg/L. This will not harm faucets or fixtures, but will disinfect very well. It rinses easily and can be used throughout brewing area in case air born yeast/bacteria are elevated. Making a five gallon batch will let you soak everything overnight.
Also, try getting a hydrometer reading at bottling, then do a hydro reading a month later on a bad batch. See if your number drops much lower. This could help you discern if it is a bacteria/yeast that is the cause.

Do your bottles develop a ring around the inside of the neck at the beer level?

Lou2row: Assuming you're directing your comment to me, I did end up using bleach, but only 1 oz (30mL) per gal, in combination with 1 oz vinegar per gal. I only soaked about 1 hr, but other posts suggested this would work well.

I'll take a hydrometer reading at bottling, but I guess I'll have to let a bottle get flat to take a hydrometer reading after carbonation. I assume you're looking for the FG to keep dropping as a sign of infection.

I did not notice a ring in the bottles with this last batch (which had the flavour). However, they have conditioned 3 weeks and been in the fridge for several weeks if that makes a difference. Would a ring be a sign of an infection?
 
Take a very close look at your water, in particular Sodium, Sulfate, and Chloride....also your alkalinity. Also get a pH of your mash. Acidifying your sparge water to between 5-6 pH also helps. You have tried a lot of things and it appears water is the common factor.

Hi Helibrewer: Water is one of the things I'm playing with. My water is essentially RO (super soft tap water treated with campden in the mash/sparge and CaCl2 and CaSO4 in the kettle). The mash pH was predicted at 5.4. I do not acidify my sparge water. Should I? My tap water has a pH of 7, but no dissolved buffers to hold a low pH. I could add the CaSO4 to the sparge water maybe... I'll buy a pH meter one day.
 
Hi Helibrewer: Water is one of the things I'm playing with. My water is essentially RO (super soft tap water treated with campden in the mash/sparge and CaCl2 and CaSO4 in the kettle). The mash pH was predicted at 5.4. I do not acidify my sparge water. Should I? My tap water has a pH of 7, but no dissolved buffers to hold a low pH. I could add the CaSO4 to the sparge water maybe... I'll buy a pH meter one day.

Your tap water should be pH 7 or so, EPA rules. :)

Soft due to a traditional ion exchange water softener or an RO system or just a natural water source that's soft?

An ion exchange system will give you lots of sodium ions and can adversely affect your beer. If you're starting with a very hard water source, you'll get a beer that tastes like salt.
 
Your tap water should be pH 7 or so, EPA rules. :)

Soft due to a traditional ion exchange water softener or an RO system or just a natural water source that's soft?

An ion exchange system will give you lots of sodium ions and can adversely affect your beer. If you're starting with a very hard water source, you'll get a beer that tastes like salt.

My intended point with the sparge water comment was that the water has insignificant alkalinity (and neutral pH) so I shouldn't need to acidify it. At least, that's what I read here on the forum.

In answer to your question, my water is naturally soft (essentially RO) straight from the tap. No sodium issues.
 
Hey Brewzombie,

Do you cold crash your beers before bottling or do you bottle at 18 or 20 degrees? (celcius) The fault in mine is always more pronounced when the beer is clear, cold and carbed....however doesnt get worse or better with age (have a pale ale thats 3 or 4 months in the keg and its as bad as the day I kegged it).

I had my mate around on the weekend and he concurred that it was the same fault in all the beers (I gave him 5) and he also concurred that the fault seems to be getting less pronounced with each batch I brew, which is something I noticed when I went through my brew log the other day. This is in line with a tip I got on another thread on this forum - that my brewkit is contaminated.

I mentioned earlier that I made my brewkit myself, what I didnt mention is that after stainless welding you need to passivate the welds or they will rust. I did this with a commercial passivating gel thats highly acidic. Theres a chance I didnt wash it off thoroughly enough and thats whats causing my problems. Soaked the kit in a basic soloution to neutralise any acid over the weekend and will brew again soon and keep you posted.
 
Hey Brewzombie,

Do you cold crash your beers before bottling or do you bottle at 18 or 20 degrees? (celcius) The fault in mine is always more pronounced when the beer is clear, cold and carbed....however doesnt get worse or better with age (have a pale ale thats 3 or 4 months in the keg and its as bad as the day I kegged it).

Hi YZ250. I don't cold crash before bottling (no means to do so), but I would say the fault does seem to worsen once carbed/chilled. It usually worsens with aging though.

I had my mate around on the weekend and he concurred that it was the same fault in all the beers (I gave him 5) and he also concurred that the fault seems to be getting less pronounced with each batch I brew, which is something I noticed when I went through my brew log the other day. This is in line with a tip I got on another thread on this forum - that my brewkit is contaminated.

I mentioned earlier that I made my brewkit myself, what I didnt mention is that after stainless welding you need to passivate the welds or they will rust. I did this with a commercial passivating gel thats highly acidic. Theres a chance I didnt wash it off thoroughly enough and thats whats causing my problems. Soaked the kit in a basic soloution to neutralise any acid over the weekend and will brew again soon and keep you posted.

So you're saying you may have an acidic residue that is being partially removed with each batch you brew? I hope for your sake that is your problem. I'm using a homemade cooler with SS braid for a mashtun and an aluminum pot for a brew kettle. I don't have any welds so that's not a possibility for me. My off-flavour has diminished somewhat recently, but I chalk that up to my diligence in improving my process.

I just bottled this past weekend and wasn't sure whether I detected anything before bottling. I usually don't notice much of anything, but my brew buddy and I agreed that there was "something" there, but neither of us can really put it into words. We'll have to wait and see if it develops into the strong tonic bitterness that is so familiar after 3 weeks of bottle conditioning and a few days in the fridge. I'll report back when I know.
 
My intended point with the sparge water comment was that the water has insignificant alkalinity (and neutral pH) so I shouldn't need to acidify it. At least, that's what I read here on the forum.

In answer to your question, my water is naturally soft (essentially RO) straight from the tap. No sodium issues.

Acidifying the sparge water keeps the pH low while straining the grains, helping to prevent tannin extraction. You lose significant buffering after the first runnings.
 
Acidifying the sparge water keeps the pH low while straining the grains, helping to prevent tannin extraction. You lose significant buffering after the first runnings.

I completely get what you mean. How would you propose I do so without a pH meter and without any real buffering capacity in my sparge water to start with? Remember the buffering capacity of my sparge water itself is essentially zero. My thinking is that since I batch sparge and my water has no alkalinity to raise the pH that I'll be fine without acidifying it (ie the remaining buffering capacity of the highly diluted wort will suffice). I usually just run off the first runnings then do a single batch sparge. I've considered doing 2 instead (for efficiency reasons), but haven't tried it yet. If you still think I have a problem, I'd be happy to try acidifying if you can recommend a foolproof way without overshooting the target pH without a pH meter.
 
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