Batch Spargers: Mashout, Yea or Nay?

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Do you Mashout with your batch sparging?

  • Mashout, heck yeah!

  • Holls no!

  • Nader~


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brewt00l

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Do you mashout?

I decided to include a mashout in my last two AG brews for kicks and wound up with lower efficiency than usual. The mashout step was the only variable that changed in the process...next week I am going to eliminate it and see if my numbers return to normal.
 
brewt00l said:
Do you mashout?

I decided to include a mashout in my last two AG brews for kicks and wound up with lower efficiency than usual. The mashout step was the only variable that changed in the process...next week I am going to eliminate it and see if my numbers return to normal.

How did you heat the mashout?
Were your measurments accurate for the volume?

A mashout should extract more sugars not less. This also makes more volume if you add hot water so you would have less gravity from doing that and it must be considered and compensated for if need be.
 
I don't bother with a mashout. The sparging is pretty quick and the wort goes straight on the burner afterwards anyway.
 
I almost always do a mashout now. It improves my batch sparge efficiency by about 7 or 8 points, and makes for easier lautering. If I don't have room, time, inclination, etc. for a mashout, I will definitely raise the temp of my sparge water to get the grains as close to 170F as possible -- that works well, too.
 
WBC said:
How did you heat the mashout?
Were your measurments accurate for the volume?

A mashout should extract more sugars not less. This also makes more volume if you add hot water so you would have less gravity from doing that and it must be considered and compensated for if need be.

I heated the mashout water separately and added 'till the mash hit temp. I then subtracted that volume from my sparge water and proceeded as normal.

My typical process is mash in @ 1.25Q/LB, 60 m sac rest, drain, add sparge @168/10 minutes & drain. I net 79% and it's been smooth sailing. I am guessing that I am getting additional conversion during that sparge (unless there is an issue with the crush since I get it pre-milled from the same place each time). I am curious to see how the next brew goes.
 
I don't mash-out most of the time, but I do sparge with fairly hot water (175F). I use pH5.2 to avoid tannins.
 
I've been using my pump to recirculate while slowly heating my keg MLT for a mashout. It also accomplished the vorlauf. The funny thing is I notice the mash temp drop before it starts to rise again. Go figure.
 
If I have the room in the tun, I'll mashout with 1 gallon of boiling water. You don't want to overdue the mashout volume because you want to leave room (portion of your total runnings) for a good sparge volume. Note: I'm a batch sparger and consider this infusion ONLY for raising the temp to promote sugar soluability. It has nothing to do with the traditional purpose of halting conversion.
 
bluechip101 said:
Sorry guys, but I'm a noob. Can someone define "mashout"?

It is an additional mash step used to raise the mash temperature from the normal range of 148-154*F to 168-170*F. This stops further enzyme conversion, preserving the fermentables. It is also thought to add a further degree of extraction for the grain as sugar is more soluble at higher temperatures.

You do not want to exceed 170*, though, as this will begin extraction of the tannins from the grain husks leading to bittering off-flavours.
 
PseudoChef said:
It is also thought to add a further degree of extraction for the grain as sugar is more soluble at higher temperatures.

You do not want to exceed 170*, though, as this will begin extraction of the tannins from the grain husks leading to bittering off-flavours.

Not thought to add, DOES add. Simple physics, no mystery about it. The warmer the water the more it sugar it can dissolve. Just try to dissolve a bunch of sugar in ice water. That's why a lot of cocktails call for simple syrup in the recipe. Simple syrup is just sucrose already dissolved in water for you.
 
pjj2ba said:
Not thought to add, DOES add. Simple physics, no mystery about it. The warmer the water the more it sugar it can dissolve. Just try to dissolve a bunch of sugar in ice water. That's why a lot of cocktails call for simple syrup in the recipe. Simple syrup is just sucrose already dissolved in water for you.

Right, but wouldn't you just sparge with 170 degree water and get the same extraction as doing a mash out? I always sparge with 170-175F water when I skip mashout and when I do a mashout.
 
If your already drained mash is at 150 and you add 170' sparge water, your mash will not be 170'. It probably won't even be over 160'. Check it next time. I've got a thermo installed in my MLT and I've seen this for myself.
 
I take the wort and boil about 4-5 gallons and return for my mash out, then recirc and drain to kettle. I then hit the MT with my sparge water, stir, and recirc till clear and dump in the kettle that is nearly boiling from the first wort. I also add about 15% of my wanted IBU's with the first wort, I really like the rounded bittering I have noticed. I won't say a mash out is necessary, but I hit 80% on efficiency since I went to a finer crush and mashing out. Haven't noticed any extra maltiness from doing a decoction type of mash out:( oh well, I still like it and will remain doing so for "my" higher extraction rates.
 
Lil' Sparky said:
If your already drained mash is at 150 and you add 170' sparge water, your mash will not be 170'. It probably won't even be over 160'. Check it next time. I've got a thermo installed in my MLT and I've seen this for myself.

Hmm, interesting. I'm actually brewing after lunch today. I'm gonna try 180-185F water for sparging and see if that effects my efficiency. I'm doing a IIPA with 17.5lbs of grain for 5 gallons... it's gonna be a biiiiiig beer.
 
Damn, brewing again already? It sounds like you've been able to brew very often lately. Are you stocking up for a blowout party this winter or something? ;)
 
Ó Flannagáin said:
Right, but wouldn't you just sparge with 170 degree water and get the same extraction as doing a mash out? I always sparge with 170-175F water when I skip mashout and when I do a mashout.
I'm no expert, but it seems like if ALL of the wort (first runnings and sparge) is near 170F, it gives you a better chance of extraction than if only your sparge is near 170.

I've never bothered measuring the temp during sparge - I always just use 168F sparge water, and as Sparky points out, since the grains are at a lower temperature after the mash, the actual sparge temp will be lower than 168F. By raising the mash temp to near 170F for mashout, the hotter grains should also keep the sparge temp closer to 170 without requiring hotter sparge water.
 
Bobby_M said:
Note: I'm a batch sparger and consider this infusion ONLY for raising the temp to promote sugar soluability. It has nothing to do with the traditional purpose of halting conversion.

That's exactly why I am wondering if I am typically getting additional conversion during my sparge...I raised my grain bed temp to 172, halting conversion @ 60 minutes.
 
brewt00l said:
That's exactly why I am wondering if I am typically getting additional conversion during my sparge...I raised my grain bed temp to 172, halting conversion @ 60 minutes.
You wouldn't really expect it -- most of your conversion happens in the first 20 mins. But it is weird that you would suffer from a mash-out. Maybe it is just coincidence and something else changed in your process as well? Based on what you have said, you seem confident that it is not but you might wish to keep yourself open to the possibility. If you do figure it out, I would be very curious to hear what it was. :mug:
 
FlyGuy said:
You wouldn't really expect it -- most of your conversion happens in the first 20 mins. But it is weird that you would suffer from a mash-out. Maybe it is just coincidence and something else changed in your process as well? Based on what you have said, you seem confident that it is not but you might wish to keep yourself open to the possibility. If you do figure it out, I would be very curious to hear what it was. :mug:

That occurred to me, especially in light of the recent BYO article on shorter mash times & conversion. The biggest variable out of my current control is the crush...all the grain has been pre-milled from AHS. I have a nut brown on deck (premilled grain from AHS) that I will be brewing next weekend via my normal schedule so I will see what kinda numbers I hit. Course, that still wouldn't rule out issues on the two prior batch crushes....

I'm not militant about having to hit specific numbers but I do want consistency and it has been 'till the addition of the mashout. It's more a curiosity than anything. We shall see!
 
So let me get this straight. You mash out by bringing your kettle up to 170* and then you sparge?

I was thinking it might be the water. Maybe getting more than you need but if you aren't adding more water to the brew then I am lost. It sounds as if your variable in the crush might be the issue. Even if you get the grains from the same place, someone might crush slightly more fine than someone else. Dunno. Get a BarleyCrusher and you eliminate that issue.

Funny thing though, it will be interesting to see what you find out. Keep us posted.

- WW
 
wilsonwj said:
So let me get this straight. You mash out by bringing your kettle up to 170* and then you sparge?

I was thinking it might be the water. Maybe getting more than you need but if you aren't adding more water to the brew then I am lost. It sounds as if your variable in the crush might be the issue. Even if you get the grains from the same place, someone might crush slightly more fine than someone else. Dunno. Get a BarleyCrusher and you eliminate that issue.

Funny thing though, it will be interesting to see what you find out. Keep us posted.

- WW

yeah, that's what mashing out is:

What is Mashout?

Before the sweet wort is drained from the mash and the grain is rinsed (sparged) of the residual sugars, many brewers perform a mashout. Mashout is the term for raising the temperature of the mash to 170°F prior to lautering. This step stops all of the enzyme action (preserving your fermentable sugar profile) and makes the grainbed and wort more fluid. For most mashes with a ratio of 1.5-2 quarts of water per pound of grain, the mashout is not needed. The grainbed will be loose enough to flow well. For a thicker mash, or a mash composed of more than 25% of wheat or oats, a mashout may be needed to prevent a Set Mash/Stuck Sparge. This is when the grain bed plugs up and no liquid will flow through it. A mashout helps prevent this by making the sugars more fluid; like the difference between warm and cold honey. The mashout step can be done using external heat or by adding hot water according to the multi-rest infusion calculations. (See chapter 16.) A lot of homebrewers tend to skip the mashout step for most mashes with no consequences.
http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter17.html
 
Voted "Nader" because it depends. I fly sparge, but the sparge method is fairly irrelevant in a conversation about mashing out. If I'm brewing a light bodied beer, I won't mash out. If I'm brewing something with some body/feel, I'll mash out. In almost all cases, I'll sparge with 170-180 degree water to thin the mash and get the most out of it.
 
wilsonwj said:
It sounds as if your variable in the crush might be the issue. Even if you get the grains from the same place, someone might crush slightly more fine than someone else. Dunno. Get a BarleyCrusher and you eliminate that issue.

That's on the horizon :)
 
I do not mash out. I have read somewhere that most probrewers don't either. They mash for about 20 mins and start to lauter. If the recipe is designed well enough you should need to mash out. I'm going to try the short mash method on one of my next brews and see if it makes a difference(will have some extra DME around just in case).
 
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