Help - under carbed my bottles

I recently bottled 20 L of Ed Worts Haus Pale Ale and mistakenly under carbed the batch with the sugar before bottling.

I followed the Brewers Friend Carbing calculator and mistakenly allowed for the beer to be at !0 C (which it was at time of bottling) instead of the ± 24 C it will be bottle conditioning at.

It's been a week in the bottle now and I have not as yet tested it but .....

Will it carb up with probably less than half the carbing sugar it would have needed.

Or can I uncap each bottle and put in a small pinch of sugar then recap ?

Any help from the wise ones will be appreciated.

Every carbing calculator I have seen wants to know what the temp of your beer is when you bottle it. Temperature determines how much CO2 the liquid is holding onto. The higher the temp, the less CO2 it can hold.

I also haven't found a calculator that I trust completely as they always seem to suggest too little sugar. I usually add in just a little more.

You CAN uncap, sugar and recap but you are playing with fire. If it isn't done perfectly, you can be in a lot worse position than you started. I would let one go 3 weeks, refrigerate for a week, and give it a try before you mess with anything.

Thanks Bleme

But herein lines the rub. I made those brews for my wedding which is in a weeks time !!!

May just have to buy beer now.

But are you saying that i was correct to only add sugar required for 10 C (50 F) because that was the temp it was bottled at. Now it's at about 23 C (74 F) and has been sitting at that for about 9 days.

I'm a bit confused. I'll try a bottle tonight and see what state it's in.

Correct. 10C was the correct number to enter in the calculator.

The way to figure priming sugar on a calculator is to enter the highest temp that the beer has achieved post fermentation. This is because the calculator needs to account for how much CO2 is already in solution.

As temp rises, CO2 comes out of solution and leaves via your airlock. If you cold crash, no more CO2 goes into solution, since no new CO2 is being produced.

OP, if you entered 10C as your temp, but your beer had been sitting at 24C, then yes... you undercarbed it but not by a drastic amount. By my calculations, you put in approximately 78% of the sugar that you should have to reach a given carb level. So, if you wre shooting for 2.5 volumes, you'll end up with aabout 1.96. Undercarbed, yes, but not the end of the world (not like you ended up with a cask ale level of .7 volumes or similar).

This may be slightly compounded by the fact that you aren't allowing a full three weeks for it to carb up, but your slightly higher temp sould help that some.

Regardless, there's really nothing to do now, especially with your timeframe (no time to uncap, add sugar, etc). Just let it ride.

bleme said:

Correct. 10C was the correct number to enter in the calculator.

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Actually, no. See my explanation. Don't enter bottling temp, enter the highest temp achieved post fermentation.

This is one of the most commonly misunderstood pieces of data in homebrewing.

Bleme, this is the very reason why every calculator seems to ask for too little sugar - it's not the math, it's user error.

If you figure out how much sugar you would need to add to the total batch and then divide that number by the total amount of OZ you have in your batch and the multiply by 12 (assuming you are using 12 oz bottles). That is how much you will need to weigh out for each bottle.

You could uncap and add that to each bottle. If you are consuming it in a week I wouldn't be worried too much about infections or oxidation as it's not enough time for anything to get going.

I would try it tonight but a week in the bottle probably isn't really enough time for it to be an accurate measurement of how it will be.

How many volumes of CO2 are you potentially under carbed?

I never use those priming calculators! I hate them for the reason mentioned- "temperature", plus it has you carb "to style". According to some calculators, stout would be at 1.3 volumes- in other words, flat.

A nice standard 1 ounce by weight per gallon of corn sugar is perfect in nearly all cases, but ..75 ounce per gallon could be used for a lower carb level if desired.

How much sugar did you actually use? And how many gallons?

Hopper5000 said:

If you figure out how much sugar you would need to add to the total batch and then divide that number by the total amount of OZ you have in your batch and the multiply by 12 (assuming you are using 12 oz bottles). That is how much you will need to weigh out for each bottle.

You could uncap and add that to each bottle. If you are consuming it in a week I wouldn't be worried too much about infections or oxidation as it's not enough time for anything to get going.

I would try it tonight but a week in the bottle probably isn't really enough time for it to be an accurate measurement of how it will be.

How many volumes of CO2 are you potentially under carbed?

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Except, how do you figure out how much CO2 is lst when you uncap, and how much remains in suspension? Sounds like we are in WAG territory now, with only a week to go for carbing. No way those bottles aren't flat for the wedding if you try to open and add sugar.

I don't disagree with you homebrewdad. I've done this one time and it worked but it was a belgian that I accidentially under sugared by 1 whole volume of C02 so I wasn't concerned much about would escape by uncapping. It work out well in my situation.

I also agree that he's probably at about 2 volumes of C02 instead of 2.5 which is still a perfectly fine level of carbonation and most people probably wouldn't notice a difference.

I think this is a RDWHAHB situation... however he could always buy more beer just in case ....it's a wedding after all.

Hopper5000 said:

I don't disagree with you homebrewdad. I've done this one time and it worked but it was a belgian that I accidentially under sugared by 1 whole volume of C02 so I wasn't concerned much about would escape by uncapping. It work out well in my situation.

I also agree that he's probably at about 2 volumes of C02 instead of 2.5 which is still a perfectly fine level of carbonation and most people probably wouldn't notice a difference.

I think this is a RDWHAHB situation... however he could always buy more beer just in case ....it's a wedding after all.

Click to expand...

Agreed. At 2 volumes, it'll be fine.

Thanks for all the input everyone, much appreciated.

The good news is that I chilled and drank one of the Haus Pale Ales last night and it was not bad. Carbonation a touch low but it's got a week to get up to speed.

I will try the Centennial Blond tonight. Holding thumbs.

BTW Yooper, last weekend some of my mates tried the Yoopers Pale Ale I made and were raving about it. Going to make another batch very soon !!!!

homebrewdad said:

Actually, no. See my explanation. Don't enter bottling temp, enter the highest temp achieved post fermentation.

This is one of the most commonly misunderstood pieces of data in homebrewing.

Bleme, this is the very reason why every calculator seems to ask for too little sugar - it's not the math, it's user error.

Click to expand...

Glad you said it, now I don't have to type all that!

Just so I'm perfectly clear.

Is that the highest temp that :

THE BEER WILL ACHIEVE DURING THEIR BOOTLE CONDITIONING PERIOD

or

THE HIGHEST TEMP THAT THE WORT ROSE TO AFTER IT WAS FERMENTED OUT AND CRASH COOLED

Wheelspin said:

Just so I'm perfectly clear.

Is that the highest temp that :

THE BEER WILL ACHIEVE DURING THEIR BOOTLE CONDITIONING PERIOD

or

THE HIGHEST TEMP THAT THE WORT ROSE TO AFTER IT WAS FERMENTED OUT AND CRASH COOLED

Click to expand...

After it ferments.

Wheelspin said:

Just so I'm perfectly clear.

Is that the highest temp that :

THE BEER WILL ACHIEVE DURING THEIR BOOTLE CONDITIONING PERIOD

or

THE HIGHEST TEMP THAT THE WORT ROSE TO AFTER IT WAS FERMENTED OUT AND CRASH COOLED

Click to expand...

Neither!

When the beer ferments, it off-gasses. It off-gasses more at higher temperature.

The calculators (again, one reason I hate them) try to "guestimate" the amount of residual c02 in suspension. That's why the ask for the temperature.

Crash cooling is done after fermentation- so it has no impact at all.

But say you started fermentation at 65 degrees, let it rise to 72 degrees, crash cooled to 35 degrees, and will store it at 70 degrees.

You'd use "72 degrees" in that calculator because the c02 would off gas more then, and once finished, no new c02 would be produced.

You want the highest temperature the beer reached during or after fermentation, when airlocked.

I hope that makes sense!

(Did I mention that I hate those calculators?!?!)

Yooper said:

Neither!

When the beer ferments, it off-gasses. It off-gasses more at higher temperature.

The calculators (again, one reason I hate them) try to "guestimate" the amount of residual c02 in suspension. That's why the ask for the temperature.

Crash cooling is done after fermentation- so it has no impact at all.

But say you started fermentation at 65 degrees, let it rise to 72 degrees, crash cooled to 35 degrees, and will store it at 70 degrees.

You'd use "72 degrees" in that calculator because the c02 would off gas more then, and once finished, no new c02 would be produced.

You want the highest temperature the beer reached during or after fermentation, when airlocked.

I hope that makes sense!

(Did I mention that I hate those calculators?!?!)

Click to expand...

Heh, I think you did mention that, Yoop.

Okay, here goes. I ALWAYS bow to your knowledge of brewing, but I have to disagree with you, here, on the basis of pure science.

You should use the highest temp AFTER fermentation is complete.

Say you have a beer that spikes up to 75 in early fermentation. You'd have less dissolved gas in solution, right?

But if you get the temp back down to, say, 68 - while fermentation is still actively occuring - then CO2 is still being produced, and is still going into solution - which replaces the gas lost at that 75 spike.

This is *not* a perfectly exact science, because you are right on one aspect - we are guesstimating the amount of CO2 in suspension. It's difficult to definitely state without special instruments exactly how much gas is in solution at a given time (did the beer have enough fermentation time after the temp spike to replenish the CO2 levels?).

But using the max temp once fermentation is complete will give you the very closest number. Closer than using the highest temp ever achieved. Certainly closer than a blanket statement of one ounce of sugar per gallon or whatnot... assuming, of course, they you are trying to hit a certain carb level, and not happy to just go with "yep, my beer is carbed".

Wheelspin said:

Just so I'm perfectly clear.

Is that the highest temp that :

THE BEER WILL ACHIEVE DURING THEIR BOOTLE CONDITIONING PERIOD

or

THE HIGHEST TEMP THAT THE WORT ROSE TO AFTER IT WAS FERMENTED OUT AND CRASH COOLED

Click to expand...

The highest temp that the beer has reached in you carboy/bucket once fermentation was complete. We're measuring how much gas is in solution now, which is directly affected by the temperature of the beer.

Ignore your cold crash temp - that is completely irrelevant. Don't worry about what temp you will be conditioning bottles at - by that point, the sugar is already in, and your max carb level is determined.

Just use the hghest temp the beer in the fermenter has been at post fermentation.

The co2 that was released at that 72 degree temperature would not be replaced. Dissolved co2 is impacted quite a lot by temperature. I stand by what I said.

Yooper said:

The co2 that was released at that 72 degree temperature would not be replaced. Dissolved co2 is impacted quite a lot by temperature. I stand by what I said.

Click to expand...

If fermentation was complete, then I would agree with you. I do agree with you that dissolved CO2 *is* impacted quite a bit by temperature. Lowering the temp doesn't magically add CO2 to solution if none is available - which is why people who use the cold crash temp in a calculator get undercarbed beers (the formula "thinks" there is more dissolved CO2 than there actually is).

If, as in my example, you spiked a higher temp of 72, but got that under control while fermentation was still going on (say, back down to 65), then you'll find that the CO2 being produced by the yeast will first go into solution, then bubble out of the airlock.

It's a subtle difference, I know. You're talking about probably no more than .2 - .3 volumes difference in most cases. But if the point is accuracy, the correct temperature to use is the highest post fermentation - because as long as fermentation is going on, CO2 is still being produced, and is still available to go into solution.