What makes AG so difficult?

I first wrote this post as a reply to the "Is it against the rules" thread, but figured it might draw the thread off its topic a bit.

This is quoted from that thread:

First, I'm in awe of you brewing AG since starting brewing in January. 2 Extract batches then into AG? RIGHTEOUS!!

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Not to take away from your hard work on this, Twabe - I think it's great that you took the leap to AG as quickly as that.

However, it just makes me wonder when everyone keeps talking about AG brewing as some form of near-impossible step to take and that it is supposedly incredibly difficult/expensive etc.

I started brewing AG (also in January) and had done no brewing whatsoever before then and while I agree there's a fair bit of work involved, I have to admit I've found it . . . surprisingly easy!

Yes. More things can go wrong in the process, but if you are meticulous about the process, there isn't really that much in it which is difficult. A lot of work, yes, but not really difficult.

I can easily understand reasons to stay with extract when these are based on thing like how much time you have on your hands for brewing or space issues etc. I can't really understand it if it's a matter of not wanting to go through the complications of brewing AG as such.

Please don't think I'm bashing either AG or extract brewers. As I see it, whatever suits you best is what you should be doing, and if the outcome of your labour is good beer, then you're achieving what you're supposed to, right?

In this, I suppose, there's a question and that is:

Who put into people's heads that AG is so difficult? And why?

Cheers,

Jens-Kristian

I think people get frightened by the term 'complicated' and replace it with 'difficult.' You're right, AG is not that difficult, but it is fairly complicated.

After just brewing my first AG batch recently, I whole-heartedly agree. Definitely nothing difficult about it.

I actually kind of liked the extra "complication" of mashing, and it really did not take that much longer.

I started AG June 05 and was in the same thought on not sure if I wanted to go there. I went to an AG class at my HBS that really helped me to understand how simple it really is. I would recommend however not going to AG straight away just because this is a hobby and AG requires more equipment/$ and if you end up not liking the process you just wasted more cash. Stumbling through an AG session; your still going to make beer. It's the fine tuning that enables you to control and create better (or maybe great) beer more consistently by tweaking mash rest temps, grain combos etc. Brewers who use DME/LME start reading all the jargon going on in AG and that is what makes them nervous to jump IMO.

pokey said:

...and it really did not take that much longer.

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You have hidden secrets you want to share . I added at least 2:30 more to my brew schedule from DME.

1/2 hour prep; water heating (more water)
60 minute sac rest.
45 minute sparge.

Not to mention full wort boils and cooling. I like the time though spent. SWMBO must leave me alone for 6 hours or so.

What makes it difficult? Fear. That's it. People are afraid they'll screw something up. Then they do it, it works, and they say " Well that wasn't so damned hard!" And they wonder what took so long. I have a friend that has never even brewed a single batch, yet he is building a 3-tier system that'll outclass mine by a mile and his first batch is going to be AG (although I've been recruited to help him brew/drink all day). He's jumping in with both feet right off the bat.

I equate it to the first time you got up the courage to ride a roller coaster when you were a child. You contemplate it, worry over it, imagine the worst scenario and finally, get flat-out scared. But you screw up the courage to finally strap yourself into the coaster car, cross your fingers, close your eyes and pray - all the time trying your best to hide your fear.

Then, after it's all over, you have a big smile on your face, a sense of accomplishment, a rush of relief over conquering your initial fears and you realize it wasn't that bad at all! And now, you can't wait to get back in line and do it again!

Rhoobarb said:

I equate it to the first time you got up the courage to ride a roller coaster when you were a child. You contemplate it, worry over it, imagine the worst scenario and finally, get flat-out scared. But you screw up the courage to finally strap yourself into the coaster car, cross your fingers, close your eyes and pray - all the time trying your best to hide your fear.

Then, after it's all over, you have a big smile on your face, a sense of accomplishment, a rush of relief over conquering your initial fears and you realize it wasn't that bad at all! And now, you can't wait to get back in line and do it again!

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I like it. Good analogy.

I think you hit the nail on the head when you said that it's not more difficult, just more complicated.

AG brewing is surprisingly intuitive for the most part. There's a fair bit more equipment involved, it takes longer, and there are more factors to toy with (i.e. mash temp, sparge temp, mash out, strike temp, PH & water chemistry, mash thickness, sparge rate, etc.). However, the process itself is really intuitive - you soak the grains in hot water for an hour and then slowly rinse them with more hot water, it can't get much easier than that.

Obviously, there are additional problems that you can run into with ag - efficiency problems in particular seem to be an issue for a lot of brewers. There are also some aspects of ag brewing that are not as intuitive, things like a full understanding of how mash temp, mash thickness, and PH all work together to affect enzymatic activity... water chemistry and fermentability are, I think, other good examples.

Overall though, AG brewing isn't that hard. When I meet other brewers locally they do sometimes think I'm some sort of a rocket scientist for brewing all grain batches - there is a bit of mythology surrounding it I suppose.

Actually, I've never brewed w/ extract. I had a buddy show me how to brew and he'd been doing AG for 10+ years. It seemed easy enough and very "authentic" to what I imagined brewing would be like, so that's all I've ever done.

I'm sure I could do an extract brew if I wanted to, but why would I? Every beer I've brewed so far (~10) has been great!

Being the one who was so impressed by the jump from extract to AG I figured I'd throw my .02 in...

10 years ago when I first read Charlie's book, the concept of going all grain was totally foreign to me, and a mystery to me seeing as I was just getting started. Now after being stalled for 9 years, it was still pretty intimidating to me, but not as much so now for one good reason. This board. But everyone has raised excellent excellent points...

Desert Brew said:

I started AG June 05 and was in the same thought on not sure if I wanted to go there. I went to an AG class at my HBS that really helped me to understand how simple it really is. I would recommend however not going to AG straight away just because this is a hobby and AG requires more equipment/$ and if you end up not liking the process you just wasted more cash. Stumbling through an AG session; your still going to make beer. It's the fine tuning that enables you to control and create better (or maybe great) beer more consistently by tweaking mash rest temps, grain combos etc. Brewers who use DME/LME start reading all the jargon going on in AG and that is what makes them nervous to jump IMO.

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ABL, Rhoobarb and Lost, all of you guys touched on things that I have always thought of when it comes to all grain. But once again, this board and everyone here has helped demystify it... And like Jens said, it's just complicated, not really difficult.

And the beauty of it all is at the end... You get BEER


A tip of the mug to all you guys...

Ize

Is this a trick question?
It's not difficult, it's just different.
A hydrometer is essential for best results

I've stayed away from AG mainly because of the time requirement I thought it would take. However, I've seen several people on here state that with a single-infusion mash and batch sparging, an AG session can be done in 4 hours.

It already takes me about that long to do an extract batch anyway, so I'm probably going AG after I move into my new house in a few months.

-walker

Here is my .02 after recently doing my first all grain batch. I will agree that its not really dificult to do but there ARE a lot more steps to it and thus more things that can go wrong. Now that doesn't mean that you will ruin your beer. I think it was a good idea for me at least, to do extract a few times before I went all-grain. All-grain is like doing extract but adding a lot more steps at the beginning. Its like starting at the half way point in the process. I don't mean to say that extract brewing is any less BREWING in general, its just sorta starting in the middle of the whole all grain process. (at least thats how I picture it in my pea brain)

Even though I had to 'feel my way through' getting temps right etc. I was very comfortable because I had done a TON of reading on the subject, both books and the internet, beforehand to have a good feel for how to do things. I think this is important for someone going all-grain for the first time. If all it takes is someone who is an accomplished brewer to show you how things work then that is great. Judging by the number of posts asking 'is my beer ruined?' or 'is this normal?' it is a good thing to not throw more steps into the process to confuse people even more.

No matter how many batches are under your belt, when you feel comfortable with the process, you will have a good time brewing all-grain.

I will add that IMHO, there really is a lot more equipment required to do all-grain batches. It takes a lot larger commitment in funds to brew that way. With extract you can get away with a plastic bucket to ferment, a 3 gal pot and some ingredients. With all-grain you need a mash tun, a larger pot etc. Even if you rig it all yourself its gunna cost ya more for equipment.

You may be able to batch sparge in 4 hrs but but I bet thats for someone who is very used to their equipment. I bet the first time it takes longer. I fly sparged so that will obviously take longer. and it took me at least 1 hr 20 min to sparge. All told it took about 7 hr from first cracking the grain to ploping my ass down on the couch after cleanup. I bet once i get more comfortable with the process it get a bit faster but at this point, I am happy with the results.

Hey, it just comes down to people are proud of themselves and want to brag. I don't think thats a bad thing.

Much of this has been said before, but here's my take on it:

AG brewing gives one many more variables to work with as opposed to extract brewing. While few should increase your chances of ruining a batch, the little details can make the difference between a great beer and a mediocre one.

On top of that is the time requirement. If I recall correctly, my quickest AG was about 5hrs. I had my last extract batch done in less than 2hrs, from start to fermenter.

Finally, you've got the additional equipment requirement. There are so many options available out there, just deciding what you want can be a big chore.

AG is as difficult as you want to make it. I think that's one of the attractions. AG homebrewing is the perfect hobby for OCD-types. It also works fine for people as lazy as I am. You can have a $4000 computerized system or a big mesh bag, a bucket and an old quilt and still make good beer. It sounds difficult, because people who do it the easy way don't write multi-page posts about HERMS vs. RIMS.

The question is not what makes AG so difficult, but what makes extract easier (or at least less time consuming).

i wouldnt recomend a newbie do a triple decoction, or continuous infusion mash...but a single step is managable for a virgin.

(im still weary of doing either of those...)

I'm still an extract brewer. Why? Time, Money and Space.

1) First off, it takes more time. But let's say that that's not an issue.
2) Money. AG requires more equipment. I'm not broke, but I spend money efficiently even when it's on a hobby.
3) Space. I live in a townhouse, so I don't exactly have a great back yard to set up my equipment to brew all day. Even if I did have a backyard, it's too darn cold most of the year.

It's the same reason I don't keg. I'm sure I'd like it more, but I'm enjoying the hobby enough as-is. It gives me something to build up to and look forward too. When we move to our next house, I'm going to look for a house with a space conducive to brewing and a bar where I can serve my homebrews.

I allow myself seven hours. I'm in no hurries. I usually average about six hours. I think my quickest brew day was five hours, but I did a lot of prep work the night before.

Cheesefood said:

... I don't exactly have a great back yard to set up my equipment to brew all day. Even if I did have a backyard, it's too darn cold most of the year....

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I'm in a townhome, too. My AG set up doesn't require much in the way of space. I like brewing in the backyard and try to whenever I can. But, for most of the year, I'm in the garage. It really isn't bad! If the forecast is for frigid weather, I'll skip brewing.

Cheesefood said:

I'm still an extract brewer. Why? Time, Money and Space.

1) First off, it takes more time. But let's say that that's not an issue.
2) Money. AG requires more equipment. I'm not broke, but I spend money efficiently even when it's on a hobby.
3) Space. I live in a townhouse, so I don't exactly have a great back yard to set up my equipment to brew all day. Even if I did have a backyard, it's too darn cold most of the year.

It's the same reason I don't keg. I'm sure I'd like it more, but I'm enjoying the hobby enough as-is. It gives me something to build up to and look forward too. When we move to our next house, I'm going to look for a house with a space conducive to brewing and a bar where I can serve my homebrews.

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Don't get me wrong here- I'm not trying to bash extract brewing in any way, nor do I think anyone here is. I can certainly agree with your points about time and space being a hindrance, but I must disagree on the money issue. True, there is an initial investment, but the cost of brewing goes waaaay down. If I recall correctly, I spent around $25 for a high-gravity belgian ale, and a good bit of that was on the yeast and candi sugar. I would venture to guess that that belgian would have easily cost me over $50 to brew from extract. So in the end the money issue is moot, because you'll get that back and more.

Oh and BTW I don't think it's ever too cold to brew!

Desert brew made a great point. You can stumble through it and still make beer. The big difference with me was the time it takes, 6-7 hours, and it always seems like I'm running into a deadline of some sort. I need to start in the am sometime. Paul's Brewing Page (as mentioned before) has a good pictorial of the process, and I copied his "El Cheapo" mash tun concept. For me the extra expense was around $75 for the coolers & plumbing.

I'm happy that you all generally agree with it.

I wasn't trying to bash extract brewing in any way, because I think it is simply another way to make beer and without it, there are a hell of a lot of brewers who would never have started in the first place.

My point in general, was merely that it'd be great if some of the myths surrounding the "problems" of going AG could be debunked.

I agree with the time spent - it is a fair bit and yes, the costs are perhaps a little higher, but my own set-up is by no means expensive and the results that have come out of it have been excellent. At least I think so myself, and those who've tried it seem to agree.

My set-up is basically, a lauter tun made out of a plastic carboy with the top sawn off, hundreds of holes drilled in the sawn-off top and then put in the bottom. Obviously I've fitted the carboy with a tap. Would be sort of silly otherwise.

Other than that, I have a couple of food-grade plastic fermenters, and while I've been told plastic is a no-go by some, there are as many who will tell you that as long as it is food grade, there really is no difference. Personally I can not taste any difference whatsoever. This also means that, since there are taps on my fermenters I can sample the brew quite easily along the way without risking infection by doing it.

The single largest expense was the pot that I mash and boil in (7 gallon stainless steel). Cost nearly as much as all the other stuff put together. Being in possession of that now though, I have very few expenses until I upgrade on a point or two. I just bought a third fermenter so I can finally go on to have two brews fermenting at the same time.

Cheers,

Jens-Kristian

J-K, Yes, the ss pot was a KA-chinger! But worth it.

The UPS tracking tag says my Crankenstein grain mill will be on my door when I get home from work on Thursday. Now I can "save" even more money on my brews! Of course, I will need a plastic garbage can or two to keep the bulk grain in....................................................Mostly, though, it will save me time and mess at the local HBS. I can just stop in for hops & yeast (OK and a brew) & a few specialty malts. Someday, though, I'd like to grow some hops, but that is a different thread altogether. I live in the Pacific NW, which is hop country, so who knows?

Another thing to mention about AG is there is a tad bit more cleaning and steralizing with the mash tun & any other vessels & plumbing you might have to collect the runnings. What I would give for a commercial dishwashing area!

But to a large certain extent, I feel with AG like I have unlocked some sort of secret mysterious code. Heck, you start with a sack of seeds and end up with beer!

BTW, I also use a 7 gal plastic fermentor, and have not noticed any funny flavors.

-t-