Time to go AG - Sanity check please?

I'm getting ready to start buying parts for my AG rig. I have the funds at the moment, so it just seems like time to pull the trigger. The trouble is I haven't picked a process yet - It's confusing! The cart is WAY before the horse here...

These things I know for sure (Not much, I know):
It'll be electric - I've got a 50 amp service available, and I don't like gas.
I'll be making 10 gallon batches, and I like high-gravity beer

The B20 is cool, but I'm not very fond of having a bunch of hardware in my BK. So that leaves me with a 3 vessel system as my only option for any flavor of HERMS (Right?). The trouble is I just can't bring myself to spend $400 on another Boilermaker just to heat water.

So this is the 3 vessel single tier design I have in my head...
BK - 20 Gallon, Bare bones, 5500w heat
MLT - 20 Gallon, False bottom, no heat
HLT/HERMS - 5 Gallon Corny, 5500w, Autosparge(ish) top off
2 pumps
2 PIDs
Custom automation, after I get to a process and results I like.

I plan to make 10 gallon batches, but like people say here, go bigger. The 20 gallon Boilermakers are $30 more than the 15, so why not right?

I figure strike water can be heated in the BK and pumped to the MLT, because the HLT is too small to heat the full strike volume.
Then I'll re-circulate through HERMS in the corny during the mash.

But I get lost at sparging... Is a 5 gallon HLT enough? If it's not, at a runoff rate of about a quart per minute the element will have to raise a quart of water about 110 degrees every 60 seconds - Hmmm...

Thoughts?

If you use your BK for your strike water, what will you sparge into? A 5 gallon HLT is not enough, not even enough for 5 gallon batches. Why not just try a Papazian Zapap (two food grade buckets) system to see if you like the process. I've brewed over 30 batches in the last year with this simple and inexpensive system with fantastic results (excellent efficiency, no stuck sprages, no channeling, excellent beer). If you start simple and do it a few times I think you'll have a better sense of what will work best for you when it's time to upgrade. Just my 2 cents... Good luck

After the several I have had, and not had supper yet.........It sounds complicated.

If the element has to heat water at a rate of 1 quart every min. That's 220 BTUs/MIN to get you where you need to be. Assuming 60* input. A 5500 Watt element delivers 312 BTUs/MIN. So, my question is.....Why do you need the HLT?

You can heat the water for the sparge on demand and use the same element to maintain the mash temp. Why do you want to bother with a HLT? I must be missing something? At a rate of 1 quart/min you will have 7.5 gallons in 30 mins. Unless I am further gone then I feel......That's plenty for sparge after the mash volume for a 10 gallon batch. Even if you do go to the larger setup, that rate is plenty. A bit fast if you ask me. Also lets look at a poor 80% efficiency on your element. You will still get 249 BTUs/min. Still plenty for sparging.

So, I would heat water on demand for the sparge, I would use the same setup (element) to maintain the temp, and boil separate. Two elements, one pump, two vessels= Lots of fun.

Again, If I missed or Oopsed....Sorry for the rambling. Maybe we should have to blow before we log on.

I think you could build a simple HERMS using 1 BK, 1 MLT, 1 pump, 1 IC which you could double up and also use as a heat exchanger during the recycle mash. Here is how this system would look like: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/simple-herms-157029/#post1810698

If you don't want a boilermaker for your HLT, use a keggle. Anyway, you will def need a larger HLT.

For a 10g batch you'll need about 7g of strike water, then another 8 or 9g of sparge water when the mash is done.

passedpawn said:

If you don't want a boilermaker for your HLT, use a keggle. Anyway, you will def need a larger HLT.

For a 10g batch you'll need about 7g of strike water, then another 8 or 9g of sparge water when the mash is done.

Click to expand...

Why wont a 5500 Watt element heat water on demand in a tube?

GreenMonti said:

Why wont a 5500 Watt element heat water on demand in a tube?

Click to expand...

Woops. I didn't see the element. Sometimes I skim, then look stupid. And I never ready your post, Monti.

I don't fully understand where the element will be if there is no HLT. I see you want to do a "on-demand" heater for the sparge water. Would you have a hose feeding a tube with the element in it? How do you regulate the temperature that way?

passedpawn said:

Woops. I didn't see the element. Sometimes I skim, then look stupid. And I never ready your post, Monti.

I don't fully understand where the element will be if there is no HLT. I see you want to do a "on-demand" heater for the sparge water. Would you have a hose feeding a tube with the element in it? How do you regulate the temperature that way?

Click to expand...

I feel special.
If one is using a SSR to fire the element and a PID to control it during the recirc of the mash. Then the same temp setup could monitor the fresh water running through it. Just a different liquid right? The temp probe would be on the output of the element. Once you stop the vorlauf and start running into the kettle, that element is sitting there. Why not run the fresh through it for the sparge?

A water line coming from the filter setup through a flow meter going into the element, then on top of the grain bed. It will clean out the element and the sparge arm(if equipped) right after the mash cycle.

Maybe I am all mixed up in the HERMS, HEX, RIMS method's of brewing. To be honest I don't know what any of that means. I would just about bet, I have one of those confused.

I feel special.

Click to expand...

I just read the 1st post then posted myself. Sorry.

The element cycles on/off to control temp. I.e., mine cycles about every 2 seconds. That means that you'd have cold-hot-cold-hot flowing out of the element. Doesn't work with a temp sensor on the output.

I don't know where the RIMS guys put their sensor but I would think it would be in with the mash, not in the heating tube.

I'd also be wary of the tube somehow drying out and the element burning out. I.e., if you stop the flow of water and leave the element on bad things could happen. Lots of other ways to imagine this happening.

Hey, there might be some great idea there, I'm just playing the devil's advocate here. I like the clever thinking.

passedpawn said:

I just read the 1st post then posted myself. Sorry.

The element cycles on/off to control temp. I.e., mine cycles about every 2 seconds. That means that you'd have cold-hot-cold-hot flowing out of the element. Doesn't work with a temp sensor on the output.

I don't know where the RIMS guys put their sensor but I would think it would be in with the mash, not in the heating tube.

I'd also be wary of the tube somehow drying out and the element burning out. I.e., if you stop the flow of water and leave the element on bad things could happen. Lots of other ways to imagine this happening.

Hey, there might be some great idea there, I'm just playing the devil's advocate here. I like the clever thinking.

Click to expand...

I didn't think of the hot, cold, hot cold, issue. I always think of a simmer-stat type control when I think of electric. At sparging rates though, the flow is so low for most of us due to small batch size. I "think" the temp would level out pretty good. 7-10 GPH for sparge water isn't very fast. Its gonna need what, about 40% power to do this. Maybe move the temp sensor close to the input of the sparge arm.

IDK, just a thought and your one of the guys that could dis-prove the idea. I think I might be getting this thread off topic. Sorry

GreenMonti said:

After the several I have had, and not had supper yet.........It sounds complicated.

If the element has to heat water at a rate of 1 quart every min. That's 220 BTUs/MIN to get you where you need to be. Assuming 60* input. A 5500 Watt element delivers 312 BTUs/MIN. So, my question is.....Why do you need the HLT?

You can heat the water for the sparge on demand and use the same element to maintain the mash temp. Why do you want to bother with a HLT? I must be missing something? At a rate of 1 quart/min you will have 7.5 gallons in 30 mins. Unless I am further gone then I feel......That's plenty for sparge after the mash volume for a 10 gallon batch. Even if you do go to the larger setup, that rate is plenty. A bit fast if you ask me. Also lets look at a poor 80% efficiency on your element. You will still get 249 BTUs/min. Still plenty for sparging.

So, I would heat water on demand for the sparge, I would use the same setup (element) to maintain the temp, and boil separate. Two elements, one pump, two vessels= Lots of fun.

Again, If I missed or Oopsed....Sorry for the rambling. Maybe we should have to blow before we log on.

Click to expand...

I was hoping someone wouhd have the BTU calculations... Heating sparge water on the fly would be ideal, if 5500 watts is enough to get it to temp on demand at sparge flow rates.

To answer JohnK's question, I meant to heat the strike water in the BK, then empty the BK to the MLT for the mash - Just because 5 gallons in an HLT isn't enough...

Scooby - I like that idea. But, I don't want hardware in the BK. Just an element and a pickup tube (Which forces me to have another heat source to maintain mash temps). If I can get tap water to sparge temps with 5500 watts, perhaps I can go RIMS for mash re-circ and pull sparge water on demand? That would get me back to 2 kettles without a HERMS in the BK

SweetSounds said:

I was hoping someone wouhd have the BTU calculations... Heating sparge water on the fly would be ideal, if 5500 watts is enough to get it to temp on demand at sparge flow rates.

To answer JohnK's question, I meant to heat the strike water in the BK, then empty the BK to the MLT for the mash - Just because 5 gallons in an HLT isn't enough...

Scooby - I like that idea. But, I don't want hardware in the BK. Just an element and a pickup tube (Which forces me to have another heat source to maintain mash temps). If I can get tap water to sparge temps with 5500 watts, perhaps I can go RIMS for mash re-circ and pull sparge water on demand? That would get me back to 2 kettles without a HERMS in the BK

Click to expand...

I think it can be done. It would be nice if an electric brewer would do a quick, down and dirty test. Nothing fancy. A piece of tubing and a quick temp probe stabbed in the end of it just to see if the temp moves up and down. If it does, how much? You should be able to heat sparge water on the fly.

GreenMonti said:

I think it can be done. It would be nice if an electric brewer would do a quick, down and dirty test. Nothing fancy. A piece of tubing and a quick temp probe stabbed in the end of it just to see if the temp moves up and down. If it does, how much? You should be able to heat sparge water on the fly.

Click to expand...

Monti, the guys with the electric RIMS units have this already. One of them should be able to chime in here because they will already know the answers.

I believe they have exactly what you are proposing, but they do it with their recurculating mash water. They do use a PID and temp sensor to maintain the mash temp (this is in contrast to the HERMS setups that run the mashwater through a submerged coil in another vessel).

passedpawn said:

Monti, the guys with the electric RIMS units have this already. One of them should be able to chime in here because they will already know the answers.

I believe they have exactly what you are proposing, but they do it with their recurculating mash water. They do use a PID and temp sensor to maintain the mash temp (this is in contrast to the HERMS setups that run the mashwater through a submerged coil in another vessel).

Click to expand...

See, I knew I had the terms mixed up. HERMS and RIMS.

Monti, I wish I could chime in with all the knowledge you need for on demand heating, but in all honest I suck with electricity and I'm several years away from building what I want, but that means that I'm fairly strong in the research stage-- What I want to build will be a two vessel system that is not a Brutus 20. Meaning that I'll have all of my hot water on demand. There are some complications with this, of course, but here is a thread or two that I've read that have helped me wrap my head around it all.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/rims-build-129646/

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/al...-concept-phase-169608/index2.html#post1963541 (this takes you to post #52, which had calculations I found helpful)

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/ok-i-give-174284/#post2018714 (electric heating spreadsheet)

GreenMonti said:

I think it can be done. It would be nice if an electric brewer would do a quick, down and dirty test. Nothing fancy. A piece of tubing and a quick temp probe stabbed in the end of it just to see if the temp moves up and down. If it does, how much? You should be able to heat sparge water on the fly.

Click to expand...

True,
But I don't know of any RIMS guys that have jammed a 5500 watt element in a tube If it exists, I'd love them to chime in here!

Guess I'll probably just have to build it and see what happens right?!? I can always add an HLT later and HERMS if I need it.

Baja_Brewer said:

Monti, I wish I could chime in with all the knowledge you need for on demand heating, but in all honest I suck with electricity and I'm several years away from building what I want, but that means that I'm fairly strong in the research stage-- What I want to build will be a two vessel system that is not a Brutus 20. Meaning that I'll have all of my hot water on demand. There are some complications with this, of course, but here is a thread or two that I've read that have helped me wrap my head around it all.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/rims-build-129646/

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/al...-concept-phase-169608/index2.html#post1963541 (this takes you to post #52, which had calculations I found helpful)

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/ok-i-give-174284/#post2018714 (electric heating spreadsheet)

Click to expand...

PERFECT!!!
Thank you, for posting the build thread for the 5500 watt RIMS, 30 seconds after I question its existence :cross:

That's exactly what I'm thinking about doing. Search - It's good, I guess

No turning back now!

I just got back from the LHBS and ordered 2 20g Boilermakers and a false bottom!

SWIMBO was thrilled! Let me tell ya... "You're going to spend what on what?!?"

Told her the rest is down hill from here - just pumps, fittings, stand, PIDs, elements, SSRs...

NOW I'm getting excited

SweetSounds said:

PERFECT!!!
Thank you, for posting the build thread for the 5500 watt RIMS, 30 seconds after I question its existence :cross:

That's exactly what I'm thinking about doing. Search - It's good, I guess

Click to expand...

Man, sometimes you just have to ask. It took me about a week or so of searching random phrases like "flash water heater" and "hot water on demand" to find that thread My goal is to build a 1 BBL system following a similar design but with full automation....we'll see!

No turning back now!

I just got back from the LHBS and ordered 2 20g Boilermakers and a false bottom!

SWIMBO was thrilled! Let me tell ya... "You're going to spend what on what?!?"

Told her the rest is down hill from here - just pumps, fittings, stand, PIDs, elements, SSRs...

NOW I'm getting excited

Click to expand...

NICE! If you get the inkling to post a build thread, I'll be subscribing for sure as I want to follow troubleshooting on this type of design. You are going with the RIMS design? Decided on an amperage yet?

Edit: Tell her that you having a blingin' brew system is cheaper than a boat or a mistress

Thanks Baja - She calmed down when I explained that I'm just renting them - I can sell them for a lot closer to what I paid when (if) I'm through with them It's all about perspective! Besides, it's my money. Uncle Sam said so :cross:

I'm ditching the 5 gallon HLT/HERMS idea for now, until I fail with a monster RIMS for on-demand sparge heating.

The plan right now is 5500 watts in the BK, and 5500 watts in a single RIMS - Probably a 2" x 18" Tri-Clover tube - 50 Amp service
Process:
Mash in - Heat water in BK, pump to MT
Recirc through RIMS during mash
Mashout to BK
Fly sparge through RIMS, on-demand from tap
Boil
Chill - Haven't decided yet. Maybe immersion or CFC for now.
Ferment - Pump from BK to Sanke fermenter

Sounds good in my head anyway...

I'll try it with water first, just to see if the RIMS can keep up with the fly sparge... Then go from there.

I'll definitely start a build thread when I get to that point - But It'll be a couple months at least. I'm still collecting parts. So far I have: Kettles
It's got a little ways to go yet

Keep us posted! I think a RIMS idea is a great one.

YooperBrew said:

Keep us posted! I think a RIMS idea is a great one.

Click to expand...

Will do - I'll make a build thread once I have all the parts.

Come to think of the process though, I don't think I'll have to heat the strike water in the BK if I can flash heat in the RIMS. Have to experiment with that one...

Process:
Mash in - Heat water in RIMS, on demand, Dump to MT
Recirc through RIMS during mash
Mashout to BK
Fly sparge through RIMS, on-demand from tap
Boil
Chill - Haven't decided yet. Maybe immersion or CFC for now.
Ferment - Pump from BK to Sanke fermenter

I guess I missed a day here and you are already in process, but I think a 5gal HLT would be perfectly fine for 10gal batches. You would have to mash a little thinner, like 2qt/lb, but this should be no problem with your fatty MLT and will help you convert faster. I do this anyway, and generally find my sparges to be in the 4gal range.

dkershner said:

I guess I missed a day here and you are already in process, but I think a 5gal HLT would be perfectly fine for 10gal batches. You would have to mash a little thinner, like 2qt/lb, but this should be no problem with your fatty MLT and will help you convert faster. I do this anyway, and generally find my sparges to be in the 4gal range.

Click to expand...

Good to know! Thanks.
I'm still going to try to get to a 2 kettle system without a HERMS in the BK. If I can't get temps with the RIMS, then I'll add the HLT. And if I end up with an HLT, I'll wind up with HERMS too - Because, it's there

Changed my mind again - I have a ton of corny's, so I decided to go with the HERMS/5Gal HLT. If it fails, I'll build the RIMS (The RIMS takes parts I don't already have )

The whole thing is going to live on a 5' stainless prep table for now (Until I have a process I like) so the 3rd container isn't an issue...

So here's the process - Please tear it apart!

Have you read this: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/2p-twent-e-new-brouwerij-boerderij-kabouter-160970/

or this?: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/simple-brewing-est-2009-build-147021/

He has some unique ways of plumbing his systems. Could be food for thought...you might eliminate your herms vessel with one of these systems.

Just make sure that you don't deliver tap water into the HLT so fast that the element can't hold your 170F. If you attach via needle valve, you can figure out what the max flow rate is and just mark it.

Bobby_M said:

Just make sure that you don't deliver tap water into the HLT so fast that the element can't hold your 170F. If you attach via needle valve, you can figure out what the max flow rate is and just mark it.

Click to expand...

Please explain the needle valve? I don't understand...
Oooooo I get it - Mark the needle valve at the setting where the HLT can no longer keep up! Cool.
Only issue I can see with that is I live in IA, and brew in the garage. Flow rate will be different during different seasons...

Earlier in this thread I had a good discussion with some helpful folks about power and heating on the fly.
The HLT (Or maybe a RIMS someday?) will be 5500 watts. With 5 gallons of thermal mass in the HLT, It should be able to keep up at sparge rates. Of course, this will have to be tested once it's built. If the HERMS fails, I'll build the monster RIMS and junk the HEX. I got corny's coming out the arse - It's no skin to kill one. Worst case I'll have a pretty cool brewery garbage can

I'm fairly new to this whole conversation. But I think you guys are wanting an instant hot water heating system correct? To only come on when you need it?

http://www.insinkerator.com/dispensers/index.shtml

Look into the single point-of-use dispensers. They'll spit out hot water, the only thing you'll need to do is tune the temperature after it comes out.

statseeker said:

I'm fairly new to this whole conversation. But I think you guys are wanting an instant hot water heating system correct? To only come on when you need it?

http://www.insinkerator.com/dispensers/index.shtml

Look into the single point-of-use dispensers. They'll spit out hot water, the only thing you'll need to do is tune the temperature after it comes out.

Click to expand...

It looks like those are actually 1500 watt 2.5 gallon tank water heaters - I don't think it would have any chance of keeping up with a sparge. If it did, though, it would prove the 5 gallon corny hex with 5500 watts is viable!!

I looked at some on-demand water heaters - They seem to go on eBay for about $200-$400 depending how fast you want your hot water. I'll try the hex first I think, because it's nearly $0 investment up front. If it fails, I'll have to figure out where i want to go from there...