Carbon monoxide hazards are real

Wouldn't a person have to be insane to use propane indoors anyway, if with a CO2 detector? I mean, CO poisoning is one hazard, an explosion from a small propane leak is another.

I believe the summary is NO BURNING PROPANE INSIDE! EVEN WITH A CARBON MONOXIDE DETECTOR NEARBY!

I just bought a CO detector that also measures uncombusted gas, which is great if you have a leak develop or anything along those lines, has a digital read out and was not that much more expensive than the CO only version at Lowes.

robumba said:

NO BURNING PROPANE INSIDE! EVEN WITH A CARBON MONOXIDE DETECTOR NEARBY!

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I hear the concerns... I brew in an attached shed with a large gable exhaust fan running & open windows & doors as well a CO detector, but what about people who use propane kitchen stoves??? With 3 or 4 burners going why aren't you exposing yourself to the same dangers... in an enclosed space with only a hood vent running?

I'm just thinking that if you are careful to properly adjust your flame for clean burning and use proper ventilation, you should be OK

vtchuck said:

I hear the concerns... I brew in an attached shed with a large gable exhaust fan running & open windows & doors as well a CO detector, but what about people who use propane kitchen stoves??? With 3 or 4 burners going why aren't you exposing yourself to the same dangers... in an enclosed space with only a hood vent running?

I'm just thinking that if you are careful to properly adjust your flame for clean burning and use proper ventilation, you should be OK

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Maybe OK, maybe not.

The burners on kitchen ranges are manufactured to a higher quality than the typical propane turkey fryer burners a lot of us use on our systems, and therefore are much, much more efficient at completely combusting the propane. Remember, complete combustion of propane (or natural gas) yields only two byproducts: CO2 & H2O. Cast iron burners, especially those that are well used, a bit rusted, or slightly out of adjustment, will not burn the propane completely, hence the CO.

I have known more than one fellow diver(including myself) who's dove bad gas from dive shop's compressors who's intake were to close to co and co2 emision sources. headache, blackout and or death are usually the result. Be safe.

A bump,

Does anyone do this on a hi-rise balcony? It is a partially enclosed deal - about 14 feet long, 8 feet high, 5 feet wide, with a 3ft brick railing. So basically there is an opening that is 14 feet by 5 feet. I barbeque out there regularly but have never used it for an hour - and also, the emission source would only be about 10" off the ground in this case rather than 3 feet. Thoughts? I do not have a burner yet, but found one for sale today and was pondering it while I came across this thread.

What makes CO dangerous/poisonous, is the fact that hemoglobin has a higher binding affinity for CO than O2. The net effect of the CO binding leaves you suffocated/asphyxiated. The headache response is your brain "screaming" for O2 and if not treated,(removing yourself from the CO source) you subsequently will fall asleep and die.

*Don't try to heat your home with a gas oven/gas burners either.

Im in construction and i do hvac.Most of the time in the winter the GCs will run open flame propane or diesel heaters and by the end of most of those days u can tell by the mind ripping headache and light headedness.I personally would never do this in a confined space but is just another construction hazard we deal with to pay the bills.Be safe USE A CARBONMONOXIDE DETECTOR and provide an adiquit supply of fresh air.

I have always kept one of those monitors in multiple rooms in the house. I have never used anything but the range top to do mine so far so I know I am safe...but that monitor is no more than 5 feet away just in case (dioxide and monoxide monitor)

This thread is very confusing. If I believe some then I can only brew outside no matter what. Others think you can brew in an enclosed basement if you do enough ventalation. I have recently switched to AG with propane which I can do outside until the weather turns to ZERO degrees here. Should I just not brew 3 to 4 months out of the year or is it conceivable that with a vent hood and a couple box fans positioned well enough can I try to pull it off in an enclosed basement? The last thing I want to do is endanger my wife and beagle when I could just go buy some beer.

Zaphod42 said:

This thread is very confusing. If I believe some then I can only brew outside no matter what. Others think you can brew in an enclosed basement if you do enough ventalation. I have recently switched to AG with propane which I can do outside until the weather turns to ZERO degrees here. Should I just not brew 3 to 4 months out of the year or is it conceivable that with a vent hood and a couple box fans positioned well enough can I try to pull it off in an enclosed basement? The last thing I want to do is endanger my wife and beagle when I could just go buy some beer.

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Propane burners can be used indoors safely, but it would violate the fire code in most instances. Using and storing the bulk propane tank indoors is the hazard and the violation, not the burner itself. CO production is typically caused by the depletion of oxygen due to poor ventilation. I brew in my garage in the winter. I always use a digital CO detector when brewing. Most of the time I will keep the garage door closed to keep warm, but occasionally open it partly to bring in fresh air. The CO detector never registers a reading while I'm brewing, but it does when I pull my car into the garage and shut it off, so I know it's working properly.

Nice Post Glad You're alright
I have a portable air cooler http://www.trianglefans.com/portable-cooler.php
heading out the storm door but I used to have a few small ones as well which i've been using for other stuff lately. On my last couple brews i was missing those extra fans. I need to bring them back to my brew room for added air flow. This post is a good motivator to bring those extra fans back. Safety 1st is no joke. My recipes are always weighted down because the fan is moving so much air
The portable air cooler is great for drying my floor after mopping up too

If you can switch over to natural gas....you can avoid alot of the CO...the natural gas burns cleaner and more completely combusts giving off more CO2 than CO. I use three 150,000 BTU jet burners in my system in the basement....somtimes having two crankin at once. I have them hard lined into my gas utility. Not that hard to do if you have nat gas to begin with and a space to plumb more or less permanently. All I do is open a window in the basement and I'm fine. I brew in the winter only when its cold and the temp dif makes for great air exchange. I would like to get a fire extingusher though...lol

BBL_Brewer said:

If you can switch over to natural gas....you can avoid alot of the CO...the natural gas burns cleaner and more completely combusts giving off more CO2 than CO.

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This is not entirely true. You can become just as dead with either gas if the burners are oxygen starved. IOW, an oxygen starved natural gas burner can be every bit as deadly as an oxygen starved propane burner.

Stole this from Wiki on the subject:

"Propane undergoes combustion reactions in a similar fashion to other alkanes. In the presence of excess oxygen, propane burns to form water and carbon dioxide.

C3H8 + 5 O2 → 3 CO2 + 4 H2O + heat

propane + oxygen → carbon dioxide + water

When not enough oxygen is present for complete combustion, incomplete combustion occurs when propane burns and forms water, carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, and carbon.

2 C3H8 + 7 O2 → 2 CO2 + 2 CO + 2 C + 8 H2O + heat

Propane + Oxygen → Carbon dioxide + Carbon monoxide + Carbon + Water

Unlike natural gas, propane is heavier than air (1.5 times as dense). In its raw state, propane sinks and pools at the floor. Liquid propane will flash to a vapor at atmospheric pressure and appears white due to moisture condensing from the air.

When properly combusted, propane produces about 50 MJ/kg. The gross heat of combustion of one normal cubic meter of propane is around 91 megajoules[10]

Propane is nontoxic; however, when abused as an inhalant it poses a mild asphyxiation risk through oxygen deprivation. Commercial products contain hydrocarbons beyond propane, which may increase risk. Commonly stored under pressure at room temperature, propane and its mixtures expand and cool when released and may cause mild frostbite.

Propane combustion is much cleaner than gasoline combustion, though not as clean as natural gas combustion. The presence of C–C bonds, plus the multiple bonds of propylene and butylene, create organic exhausts besides carbon dioxide and water vapor during typical combustion. These bonds also cause propane to burn with a visible flame.

Greenhouse gas emissions factors for propane are 62.7 kg CO2/ mBTU or 1.55 kg of CO2 per liter or 73.7 kg/GJ"

The bottom line is that both propane and natural gas burners can be operated safely so long as they are properly maintained and supplied with sufficient oxygen.

I have to agree. Many modern homes have a wide variety of natural gas appliances that operate safely in an "unvented" installation.
I see people have posted that they have used "extra" ventilation without much elaboration.
There is a way to caculate how much air exchange you need.
Automotive garages and welding shops come under local workers comp regulations and you could use those, or you can refer to the American Society of Heating, Refrigeration, Airconditioning Engineers standards for a building of similar purpose. Based on the size of your space, you could calculate how many cfm are necessary to achieve the required air exchange and stave off disaster.

I know I'm going to get gigged for this but.... I live in a 3rd story appartment and we aren't allowed to have any combustables at all. With that said since my patio is facing a small wooded area away from the road I thought I could boil outside without issue, but people being the way they are and the guy downstairs not liking me. I decided to start brewing with my propane burner in my kitchen. When I boiled the water to oxidize my pots I noticed my CM alarm went off so on my first brew I have a portable fan I set up circulating the air. When it stops being 100 I'llm open the patio doors and problem solved till next year. It's really not bad doesn't generate that much heat even in a 90min boil. I checked the floor and surround walls for hot spots, nothing. I did notice the air was better with the fan!:cross:

Exhaust fan & intake fan...don't brew inside without one. Intake of fresh air is more important than exhaust, but not having either is just plain stupid.

Boerderij_Kabouter said:

Could someone more knowledgeable than I recommend a good place to purchase a CO monitor. Are they a dime a dozen, or are there better and worse models out there? Is this a HD or Lowe's run, or should I be ordering online?

Thanks

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I personally ordered the Protech 8505 commercial CO monitor. It only has a 2 year life, but that's because it monitors CO down to 10 ppm and goes into alarm at 30 ppm. It's originally manufactured to keep U.S. businesses compliant with OSHA and NIOSH. It has a digital display and automatically displays any CO detected above 9 ppm. Most residential detectors that you buy in HD or Lowes, will not alarm until they have read 70 ppm for over an hour. There are multiple places that sell this particular monitor but I purchased my CO monitor at ProTech 8505 DC Powered Commercial CO Monitor. They shipped it out on the same day I ordered, and they were available to answer my questions regarding where to install it and how to recall memory from the unit. Good Luck!

Quick question: How do you know if complete combustion is not achieved and would you smell natural gas in the event that complete combustion was not occurring?

During my first brew this past weekend I noticed that the flames on my burner were coming out really far, they looked complete disconnected from the actual burner. What was happening? I opened up the window thinking it wasn't getting enough oxygen.

Sometime after the process my CO2 detector (actually it will detect multiple types of gasses) went off...the thing is that it's super sensitive. If you spill a beer or even set a glass of liquor within 10 feet it will go off.

Sounds like mine may have gone off due to high co2 level. I never felt light-headed at any point.

Just wanted to quickly add my story to this really important thread.

It's been said here before but it bears repetition - carbon monoxide is a danger even if you aren't using propane or brewing in a basement. I brew in a small NYC apartment on a standard home model, 4-burner natural gas range. Normally my boil heats up the place so much that I open all the windows, my front door and turn on my AC's fan whenever I brew, even in the dead of winter. But the other night, it was so cold and my place has been a it chilly lately, so I left everything closed during an especially long boil. After about two hours, one of my two CO alarms went off and indicated a level of 91 ppm. I immediately opened all the windows and doors, walked outside and called the fire department. I suspected my brewing had caused this CO level but my place just got a new boiler the week before so I wanted to be sure. The FD showed up in minutes, by which my alarm had dropped back down to 0 ppm, which their monitor confirmed as well. They checked out everything and told me just not to "cook" for that long without opening some windows. I imagine they see a lot of this in small New York apartments.

Afterwards, a fellow apartment brewer told me he'd been setting off his CO alarm while brewing until he installed a fan and opened the windows on brew day.

Don't think you're safe just because you brew in your kitchen, or use natural gas rather than propane..

Keep your brewspace well-ventilated, have at least one CO alarm nearby and make sure to change the batteries, and be safe.

I brew in the basement next to the open bulkhead doors and with a fan going at all times.

As someone who works for a company that manufacters safety equipment (gas detectors, SCBA, so on). I would echo that CO is a very dangerous gas and hopefully I don't overlap something someone else has pointed out. Whenever I am brewing in my garage I make sure that I have a fan running, just to add some extra ventilation.

At about 200 PPMs (parts per million), CO will begin to cause headaches and discomfort. At 800 PPMs you will experience dizziness, nausea, and would become unconcious within 2 hours. At about 1600 PPMs CO is lethal with 1 hour.

It is also a common misconception that CO is heavy than air. While the CO molecule is heavier than air, its specific gravity (yes..gases have a SG!) is almost identical to air. The SG of air is 1, CO is .9657. This means that CO will not just hang out at your feet. It will rise with warm air, hence why it is OK to install a CO monitor on your ceiling.

BE SAFE! VENTILATE!

First Post !!

My first All Grain batch was conducted (rather unsuccessfully) in my basement with no ventilation. After about four months of gathering information on this forum and gathering supplies I was ready to spend about a week designing and building a decently elaborate setup in my basement. I put a lot of hard work into it only to find myself poisoned, angry, and let down that I overlooked the most important part .... safety.

I then had to tear my beautiful brewery apart. Each brew day now takes place in three separate places and takes an extra hour at least, but it's worth it.

Nothing beats the smell of a Bavarian Hef boiling away outside on a crisp Canadian night.

CO is a very scary thing as I deal with it first hand as a first responder... I work for the gas utility as a fitter/inspector/responder and if anyone has questions regarding the use of natural gas and proper ventilation feel free to send me a message and we'll discuss your particular install. FYI - Every situation is different as everyone brews in different locations with different equipment so there isn't one rule of thumb everyone can follow other than ask questions if you're unsure and safety should come first and foremost!

Moved on to other pursuits, yet glad to know this thread is still helping brewers safety some four-plus years later.

Cheers!

drayman86 said:

Maybe OK, maybe not.

The burners on kitchen ranges are manufactured to a higher quality than the typical propane turkey fryer burners a lot of us use on our systems, and therefore are much, much more efficient at completely combusting the propane. Remember, complete combustion of propane (or natural gas) yields only two byproducts: CO2 & H2O. Cast iron burners, especially those that are well used, a bit rusted, or slightly out of adjustment, will not burn the propane completely, hence the CO.

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Quality control notwithstanding, an orifice in a blackpipe jet burner will burn just as efficiently as the most expensive, fashionable, upscale gas range you can find. Adjustment and use is where the problem lays; proper adjustment and use give efficient burning. Expensive name brand burners will not overcome improper adjustment and use.

i tried to brew outdoors but the wind disrupted my flame. is there a way to avoid wind issues. i use propane. my flame is open to the wind and by blocking the wind with metal props I was able to improve my flame but not enough so I went indoors.


Sent from my iPad using Home Brew

I had a similar experience a year ago.............. I wouldn't be here to write about it except that someone walked in, and I realized something was wrong with me when I spoke to him....... I didn't realize until an hour or so later what had happened. It was a near thing. I suspect that if he'd been 15 minutes later, I'd have been gone...........

drayman86 said:

Last week, my buddy and I experienced a pretty severe episode of CO poisoning while brewing in the garage. I became very light-headed, and he nearly lost conciseness.

Yesterday we brought along an OSHA-type CO monitoring device, and were able to determine the source was the hot liquor tank burner. Combination of dirty/corroded burner and burner placed too close to the bottom of the HLT nearly "snuffing" the burner flame were causing incomplete propane combustion and massive amounts of CO.

Lucky that we were familiar with the signs and symptoms of CO exposure, and could measure levels accurately to pinpoint a source. Levels returned to normal following a burner cleaning and burner repositioning.

Keep those burners clean and watch out for incomplete combustion. Pay attention to proper ventilation. We're going to have a full-time monitor in our garage for CO from here on out.

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It's worth noting that exhaust from anything has a distinctive odor. A rich flame has a rich gassy odor, and tends to be oxygen poor....... which equates to carbon monoxide. More carbon than oxygen. A flame that is lean.......does not create carbon monoxide to any significant degree......it produces carbon dioxide ........It has surplus oxygen, and often produces Ozone (O3). It will make your eyes sting...... it's very unpleasant, but not particularly dangerous.
The fact is that what we are aware of........ the unpleasant eye stinging effect, is NOT what sneaks up on us. CO will sneak up on you and kill you!

H.W.

sgraham602 said:

As someone who works for a company that manufacters safety equipment (gas detectors, SCBA, so on). I would echo that CO is a very dangerous gas and hopefully I don't overlap something someone else has pointed out. Whenever I am brewing in my garage I make sure that I have a fan running, just to add some extra ventilation.

At about 200 PPMs (parts per million), CO will begin to cause headaches and discomfort. At 800 PPMs you will experience dizziness, nausea, and would become unconcious within 2 hours. At about 1600 PPMs CO is lethal with 1 hour.

It is also a common misconception that CO is heavy than air. While the CO molecule is heavier than air, its specific gravity (yes..gases have a SG!) is almost identical to air. The SG of air is 1, CO is .9657. This means that CO will not just hang out at your feet. It will rise with warm air, hence why it is OK to install a CO monitor on your ceiling.

BE SAFE! VENTILATE!

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This is very good to know. My shed has been converted to a brew house. I keep the window open and barn style doors open with a floor fan running but one of my dogs in particular is glued to my side 24/7. I was starting to worry about all the "heavier than air comments" he's a dachshund and naturally low to the ground.

As I am just getting into all grain I was thinking about brewing in my garage....so my question is....is having the garage door all the way up good enough if I keep the burners towards the open door side ofthe garage?

I'm trying to decide on what CO meter to buy. Does anyone know if the lower-cost model (Kidde) would work for my purpose, or is it inadequate? Is more expensive (Pyle) necessarily better in this case? I'd really like to hear the opinion of anyone who has experience with these…

http://amzn.to/1zudsdn

http://amzn.to/1E6d7BM

I found this thread after setting off my home CO detector last weekend. The detector is upstairs (where the bedrooms are), I was boiling downstairs, and it went off right at knock out. Luckily my wife and son weren't at home. I opened all the windows for an hour and everything resolved. There is no display on our detector, so I have no idea about what the ppm level was. I didn't feel weird (more so than usual, anyway).

I recently got a new, larger kettle and had it straddling two gas burners (24,000 BTU) for almost two hours, so I assume that was the cause. (We've had the detector for 3+ years, the batteries were changed recently, and it has never gone off before.) I didn't have any ventilation going--but that's never been a problem in the past (using one burner), and I (like some others here) was operating under the misconception that since I was using a natural gas stove (rather than a propane burner) that I didn't have to worry about fumes.

So, next time I plan to open some windows, run an intake fan when I boil, and I want to get the meter so I can monitor the actual CO level in real time to see what kind of levels I'm getting after making those adjustments.

Bernie Brewer said:

Agreed. And CO poisoning can happen in the house, too. Or anywhere there is a heat source that uses combustibles. One thing to note: one of the first signs of CO poisoning is a nasty, nasty headache.

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Like in a garage with the car running or a bad appliance, there are no signs you simply go to sleep and dont wake up! The headache is gods way of telling you to wake up and get out! Just like at home or in a Fish house or a garage CO is silent and deadly! O2 sensors are a must if you're in an unvented
area and keep it within reach aka hang one around your neck like a necklace!

Hi, really important thread -- thank you for sharing and I am also glad you are both ok.

I didn't realise any part of the brewing process could produce carbon MONOXIDE (only dioxide).

I do a super low-tech brew at home, just using plastic buckets and sometimes a pressure keg... do I also need to take precautions? Mostly I just keep them in places with reasonable ventilation.

The only point at which Carbon Monoxide is a threat is from the flame source during the boil (maybe the mash too, but it doesn't take nearly as long to heat a mash as it does to do a boil). Fermentation doesn't produce carbon monoxide, and I think that's what you're referring to.

The problem I was having, was that I used two gas stove burners to heat a kettle that was honestly too large for kitchen brewing (15-gallon). Evidently the gas was not burning efficiently, and therefore produced enough Carbon Monoxide to set off my house CO detector. I bought this https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005FU5J5Q/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20 CO detector, and it worked well to give me continuous real-time CO levels. I would open several windows while boiling to get air circulating, and use a fan (blowing outside) in one of them. I was able to make it work, but I have since bought a Blichmann propane burner and do my boiling outside.

My Uncle brewed for 20 years in his basement, but he had a roof/house fan that he would turn on, then he'd open the door in the basement to outside (a walk out basement).
If you stood in front of the brewstand, your hair would literally blow, that's how much air was moving through. It was highly efficient.

Many people brew(reads boil) on their kitchen stove. Even that can be an issue if you don't have enough available oxygen. It the the re-burn that gives so much rise to carbon monoxide, and I found out that a gas flame on the stove puts out very little CO... until you put a pan on it,then the CO goes up. It is the flame impinging on the metal, among other things. This quote is pretty useful:
"Carbon monoxide (CO) is generated to some degree whenever anything burns. This includes:


Liquid Fuels – gasoline, diesel fuel, kerosene, lamp oil
Gasses – natural gas, LP gas, methane, any gas that burns
Solids – wood, paper, charcoal, cloth, etc.


For natural and LP gas, higher quantities of carbon monoxide are created when any of these things happen:


1. The burner flame “impinges” or hits metal while burning.
2. The flame burns with less oxygen than it needs.
3. The flame RE-burns air it has burned before.


An open burner on a residential gas stove produces almost NO carbon monoxide. As soon as you put a metal pot on the burner, CO output rises and can run anywhere from 20 to 100ppm (parts per million.) This is because the ends of the burner flames are contacting the metal pot.


As the pot heats up, the amount of CO being produced starts to drop, although it never gets back to 0ppm.


A gas oven can produce anywhere from 100 to 800ppm CO when it operates. These levels are within the requirements published in the AHRI standards. Knowing this, it is wise to crack a window open when using a gas oven for an extended period of time – like baking a turkey.


Re-burn is the most deadly situation and is typically what contributes to the few bonafide CO fatalities that do occur. Re-burn happens when the flue does not work properly, is blocked or disconnected, or is being back-drafted by some other force like an attic or exhaust fan, or an open window during a windy day.


Re-burn is the reason that ALL user manuals and operating notices caution against using a gas stove or oven for emergency heat.


During cold weather, occupants keep their homes closed up as tight as possible. This leaves little chance for outside air to enter the structure.


As the gas burners operate they consume oxygen and emit carbon dioxide and water vapor. After a period of time, the oxygen level in the area begins to drop and the flames consume more carbon dioxide and begin generating large quantities of carbon monoxide (CO). Once the flames begin emitting CO, the rate increases quickly to the point where the indoor air becomes leathal.


Re-burn is why any small non-vented gas heater becomes dangerous when operated for periods of time within a confined space. This includes open flame construction heaters, radiant heaters, overhead linear radiants and cook stoves." Complete article is here: https://carbonmonoxidemyths.com/f-a-q/

I ordered a CO meter/alarm that will also output ppm on the readout face. Should be here tomorrow, 12-13-17. Not too expensive, made by Kidde (under $50) as I boil wort on my kitchen stove. I also open the kitchen window.

So natural gas or LP, or wood, they all create fumes, and CO, even those kerosene heater that stink so bad, but use common sense and open a window to make sure the burn is with enough O2 to keep from a re-burn of the gases.

[QUOTE=" Combination of dirty/corroded burner and burner placed too close to the bottom of the HLT nearly "snuffing" the burner flame were causing incomplete propane combustion and massive amounts of CO.[/QUOTE]
I'm interested to know what the distance between the burner and the HLT and what you adjusted it to afterwards?

Go all electric for the win and safety! You can even brew indoors with it.

theQ said:

Go all electric for the win and safety! You can even brew indoors with it.

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As long as it is set up correctly. Electricity can kill you faster that CO.