Sauerkraut Starter Gose

Inspired by this post, I'm going to start honing a technique for making gose using a sauerkraut brine culture. As of right now, I plan to use 100% wheat lme, and once I've determined the viability of this method, I will adjust first the ratios, to add pilsener extract, and then the method in order to convert to all-grain.

Initial thoughts:

This style is going to require really low IBU's in order to accommodate the lactobacillus native to my culture. I expect some difficulty accurately measuring out the correct amount of hops at the low volumes I intend to start brewing this. One gallon of gose isn't going to require more than a few pellets of Saaz, I bet.

I'm going to need to time my culture extraction pretty exactly. The early stages of a sauerkraut culture can yield a great deal of mold and yeast. While the yeast is desirable, I'll have to wait for the mold to subside before extracting my starter.

I'll update this post with pictures and notes as I make progress.

My first quandary, as I prepare the sauerkraut, will be exactly how to prepare it.
I've been making sauerkraut at home for a while, now, and I've used all kinds of flavors and spices. Among my favorites have been carrots, apples, peppers, mustard seeds, caraway seeds, and dill. For obvious reasons, I'm not that excited about carrying over the flavor of mustard or dill to my beer.

However, coriander, like salt, is a common ingredient to both sauerkraut and gose, so I’m leaning toward including it in my starter. My thinking is that in addition to possibly adding a bit of extra flavor, the coriander should help to keep down potential mold and harmful bacteria, giving the yeast and lactic bacteria a better chance to thrive and grow in my brine.

Thoughts/Suggestions welcome.

I decided in favor of coriander in my sauerkraut. As mentioned above, I think the herb should lend some protection against unwanted mold and other organisms. Additonally, since I'm not using my usual dosage of caraway, I wanted some added flavor in the primary finished product. I'll give this at least a week at room temp, submerged in brine, to let the lactobacillus and any resilient yeast do their souring work on the cabbage. When it's ready to jar, I'll save a couple of cups of the brine to add to my all extract wort.

A few pics...

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I should note here a minor revision to my brewing schedule. Per a great deal of research posted online, I'll likely let this sauerkraut go about 3 weeks, which should give lactobacillus b an opportunity to take over the culture, and give me the best chance at a strong souring culture.

Looking forward to your results!

This is a pic from yesterday. The bubbles on top are just CO2 escaping from the bacterial fermentation. It's critical that the cabbage stay submerged and unexposed to oxygen, so I have it packed beneath two whole cabbage leaves with a plate on top, and a towel covering the whole thing.
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The jar is being pressed down by a rubber band, for added pressure. This will be unnecessary in another week or so.

Usually at this point in the process I'm scraping yeast and mold off the top of the brine, neither of which is harmful, as they can't penetrate the surface. Either I got some clean cabbage, or, as I suspect, the coriander is preventing growth of these unwanted organisms.

This is interesting please keep us updated with the results.

Recipe Type: Extract
Yeast: Wild Lacto (sauerkraut brine)
Yeast Starter: Sauerkraut started 13 days ago
Batch Size (Gallons): 1.75
Original Gravity: 1.040
Final Gravity: ???
IBU: 5
Boiling Time (Minutes): 60
Color: 3.2 (per Brewer’s Friend)
Primary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp): ???
Secondary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp): ???


Recipe:

1.5 lb Wheat LME 75%
.50 lb Pilsen LME 25%


8g Czech Saaz [2.40 %] (60 min) Hops 5 IBU

5g Crushed Coriander Seed (5 min)
5g Coarse Sea Salt (5 min)

8 fl oz lacto starter harvested from a 13 day old sauerkraut ferment

I decided to move forward with this over the weekend. If my reading is correct, Lacto p. should give way to Lacto b. shortly, providing a somewhat more complex souring, both in my kraut and in my beer. Additionally, my reading suggests that Lacto p. is heterofermentative, meaning that it produces both ethanol and lactic acid, as byproducts of fermentation--hence my desire to get this started a little sooner than previously stated, in order to take advantage of the presumed presence of this strain.

The brine has provided an oxygen-free environment, and all that’s to be found on top is a light dusting of dead/dormant micro-organisms. Yeast? Bacteria? Who can tell?View attachment 1426512906482.jpg

Beneath the tough outer leaves is a vibrant culture, chewing away at my cabbage, and converting simple compounds, starches, and sugars into lactic acid and a variety of essential vitamins. The cabbage is still way too crunchy, but there’s a bright tartness, from the coriander, on top of a pronounced sour flavor.View attachment 1426512938321.jpg

I managed to press out 8 ounces of milky, yellowish brine. It’s less than I thought I would get, and I hope it’s enough to inoculate nearly 2 gallons of wort before anything else can take hold.View attachment 1426512957574.jpg

Subbed cos this sounds awesome! :rockin:

Thanks. You caught me mid edit! :cross:

Brew Day:
A small addition of Saaz hops at 60 minutes will provide the only bittering in this beer. Bitterness above about 8 IBU could inhibit the souring bacteria that I need to give my gose its signature flavor, but I’ll need a little to balance out the tartness and sweetness of the wheat/Pilsen malt bill and the coriander/salt flavoring. I didn’t realize I was almost out of Saaz. With the powder, this came in right at a third of an ounce. Looks like I’m making matcha, instead of beer.View attachment 1426515898760.jpg

Here’s the coriander, freshly crushed, and a small addition of salt. I scaled it back a little, even from what’s stated in the recipe above, because I knew I’d get a little from the brine starter later. Also, you can always add salt to taste, but there’s no taking it out, if you go overboard. I’d never cooked or brewed with coriander prior to this, and that’s really a shame. It smells terrific.View attachment 1426516022175.jpg

The money shot.View attachment 1426516148033.jpg

I split this in two because I didn’t want to throw it into a little bucket, where I couldn’t see what’s happening. I chilled to 95 degrees F and pitched half my brine into each jug. I tried to filter out as much trub as I could, but you can see that there’s already a layer of hop goo settling at the bottom.View attachment 1426516178476.jpg

It appears my concerns about underpitching were largely unnecessary. This is less than 24 hours after inoculation.

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This one has a foamy, white, quarter inch krausen, and there's airlock activity about every 3 or 4 seconds. From this angle you can see that the other jug has some bubbles around the edges.

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I'm not sure how to explain the difference. There may be a variance in SG, or the one may be in a warmer position than the other. I've switched them, and pitched a bit more brine in the slower one, just in case.

I checked again this morning, and both jugs are fermenting, with one starting up more slowly than the other. The more active jug started out at the back of the refrigerator, and it may have had more exposure to heat, so I've pushed them both into position back there, and I have airlock activity in both.

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I really didn't expect a full on krausen with this beer. I wonder if I'm getting a straight lacto fermentation, or if there was some dormant, still viable yeast mixed in to the brine I pitched. If it is, it doesn't appear to be kahm. Either way, for the purposes of this first batch, I'm going to let this fermentation continue to completion, rather than pitching brewer's yeast, as I believe is customary with current commercial examples of the style.

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Cool! I've wondered about using sauerkraut to sour a beer. I made a few batches of kraut myself. Tasty stuff.

Great idea; great thread.

I wonder if you could get all the desired salt content for a gose from the briney starter, or if it would always require a bit extra.

I assume your sourkraut was just salt, water, and spice, and of course cabbage and time, right? I've got to try making some.

TAK said:

Great idea; great thread.

I wonder if you could get all the desired salt content for a gose from the briney starter, or if it would always require a bit extra.

I assume your sourkraut was just salt, water, and spice, and of course cabbage and time, right? I've got to try making some.

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That's entirely possible. I see a couple of potential barriers, but it may be worth exploring. First, a lot of salt is absorbed by the cabbage, which means I think I'd have to boost the salinity of my sauerkraut in order to get the necessary salt in the brine to provide all the brew's salt. At a certain point, the salt can inhibit the growth of any organisms in the kraut. I'm not sure what that point is, but I do know, from experience, at what point the sauerkraut is too salty to eat.

As for my recipe, you're close. I've never had to add water, as the salt draws enough water out of the cabbage leaves to produce a substantial volume of brine. In fact, I've made batches of kraut where I've had to scoop out excess brine to prevent it overflowing my vessel. This one has coriander. I almost always use caraway seeds, and I sometimes add apples.

Here are a couple of shots of the beer tonight, a little less than 48 hours after I dropped sauerkraut brine into perfectly good wheat wort.

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The one on the right was the slow starter. It's really humming along, and I can see that on top of the hops sediment at the bottom of the jugs is a white layer of...something. Bacteria, I assume.

Pics from this morning. The "krausen" has died down to about a quarter of the size it was yesterday. You can see, though, that things must have gotten pretty crazy overnight, as there are new rings at higher levels in the bottles. I never saw this beer get stirred up like I have with conventional yeast fermentation, but looking closely, it's fizzy, with tiny bubbles rising throughout.

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I get no odor from the airlock, but that's not uncommon with rubber stoppers. I can rarely smell anything over the rubber, anyway. I'm hoping that underneath there's a thoroughly sour, tart brew.

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A thought occurred to me this morning. A friend and I are brewing a lambic-style next month that will be put away for a while to sour. If this is any good at all, I'm going to have to harvest a culture when I bottle this gose to pitch into that beer, alongside the brett and sacc we've already planned.

Just a quick post tonight, as things have calmed down a bit. I hope y'all don't mind me using this as a sort of personal lab journal, but if nothing else, it helps me keep track of what's happening and what I think about it.

Here I decided to change my focus. The krausen has subsided, but there's still fermentation taking place, as evidenced by slow airlock activity and a thin film of bubbles on the surface. What I'm focused on tonight, though, is the stratification shown here.

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What this is, I can't say. There's a quarter inch of hops sediment, and a clearly defined layer of dead microorganisms and fermentation byproduct of some kind. If I get something remotely potable from this experiment, I'll attempt to wash whatever this is for future use.

Keep the updates coming! You've got me wanting to try this, if for no other reason than to say I did it. I mean, beer from sauerkraut. How cool is that?

Keep the journal going. Since I ferment kraut already, I'm interested in your results.

I did a similar thing last year with a sauerkraut starter. I would use the third runnings, boiled down. The first few half gallon tests were pretty good. One with added raspberries was awesome. After a few months the strain went south and started producing gross flavors. I'll have to try it again.

Here's where we are with this beer. The "krausen" has fallen completely, leaving only a thin, sparse layer of small bubbles, and a few little crusty rafts of material like what you see stuck to the sides of the jug.

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At this point, I realize I'm not exactly sure what my next steps are. I'm going to have to wait this out for at least a few more days to see if it finishes or if something else will take over from here. It's only four and a half days into fermentation, and it's moved impressively quickly. Airlock activity has stopped almost entirely, and the trub layer is getting thicker.

I wish I'd taken a new picture of the trub this morning. Where the picture in post 20 shows a layer of hops sediment and a layer of something else, there's now a third distinct layer. My intention, in pitching when I did, was to achieve a two-stage fermentation, with Lacto p. doing the initial work, and Lacto b. coming behind to clean up and give it additional sourness. Could it be that I'm seeing the byproduct of this process? I'll post a pic when I get home from work tonight.

Urkelbot said:

I did a similar thing last year with a sauerkraut starter. I would use the third runnings, boiled down. The first few half gallon tests were pretty good. One with added raspberries was awesome. After a few months the strain went south and started producing gross flavors. I'll have to try it again.

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I'd love your comments or notes, if you have the time. Adding fruit to this does sound nice. I think I'll start with a fruit syrup in the glass, as I think is customary in Leipzig pubs.

I could see the culture mutating quickly. While beginners to homemade sauerkraut are sometimes encouraged to kick off a new batch with brine from the last one, the truth is that this yields a less complex, less nutritious product than just letting fermentation happen naturally. I imagine biodiversity diminishes with each subsequent pitching.

I love making kraut, need to get a batch going. Will be following your updates.

There's a new thing happening.

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This is so mad scientist I love it!

great idea!

burninator said:

At this point, I realize I'm not exactly sure what my next steps are. I'm going to have to wait this out for at least a few more days to see if it finishes or if something else will take over from here. It's only four and a half days into fermentation, and it's moved impressively quickly. Airlock activity has stopped almost entirely, and the trub layer is getting thicker.

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Let me stop you right there, burn.

For all my guessing, I don't actually know what's in this beer. It's been a week since I pitched, and airlock activity hast started, stopped, and started again. My enemy right now is heat, or rather, lack of it. My house is a steady 68 degrees, which would be fine if I were making a pale ale, but this is a lacto-fermented sour ale, and it needs warmth to work. Otherwise, this could take a very long time to finish fermenting. I'm hoping that with the onset of spring, we start to see temps at least in the 70's. In that case, I'll move my beer out into the garage, where these bugs can really go to work.

I'm starting to think about a secondary for this beer, to get it off the hop sediment, in case this turns into a long term project. Anybody got a source for 2 gallon jugs? I don't mind plastic, but I'd really like something clear so I can monitor progress.

have you checked your gravity?

fantomlord said:

have you checked your gravity?

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I haven't. I probably should at some point, but with only 2 gallons of beer, I don't want to do it too frequently, so I'm waiting until activity appears stopped. I did sneak the tiniest taste (sanitized straw got a few drops out), and it's still quite sweet, though there are some really interesting sour and fruity notes coming through.

This is a very interesting post. Thank you! I've had a long running interest in both lacto fermentation and Gose and plan to get started in the coming months. I'm not sure if this would have occurred to me to combine the 2. Brilliant! I hope it plays out successfully.

BrewHound said:

This is a very interesting post. Thank you! I've had a long running interest in both lacto fermentation and Gose and plan to get started in the coming months. I'm not sure if this would have occurred to me to combine the 2. Brilliant! I hope it plays out successfully.

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Heh...I hope it turns out potable.

I'm going to try to warm this up when I get home this evening. One bottle (the fast starter) is bubbling along, with airlock activity 2 or 3 times a minute. The other is basically still. I still can't tell you what the difference is.

I am thinking about making a second 2 gallon batch using a more conventional souring/boiling/yeast technique, in hopes of comparing the finished products.

When I got home from work today I wrapped my two jugs in a heating pad, inside a towel. I set the heating pad on high and left it there for almost two and a half hours, to bring the temperature up into the 80's. As you can see, there's still a good bit of action, encouraged by the heat infusion.

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The one on the right was my fast starter, and it's never really calmed down. I still can't say what the reason is for the difference in fermentation activity. Maybe I didn't mix well enough before pouring the wort into my jugs, and that one got a heavier dose of sugar. Doesn't matter a whole lot, as I'll blend these before bottling, either in secondary or in the bottling bucket.

Here you can see the stratification I mentioned a few posts back. If anyone has ideas about why it's doing this, I'd love to hear them.

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I'm really happy with the way this has progressed, so far. It could be weeks or months before I even glimpse the finish line, but at least I know this is possible. Of course, whether it produces a good final product has yet to be determined.

For a while, I've had a suspicion about the difference in fermentation activity, I think I may have now confirmed it. Using a sanitized straw, I transferred a bit of beer from each jug into the other. I was out of town yesterday, but when I got home today, I found this. There's still a significant color difference, but I now have active fermentation in both jugs, as you can see in the pics below.

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The foam on top isn't quite the same from one vessel to the other.

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BrewHound said:

This is a very interesting post. Thank you! I've had a long running interest in both lacto fermentation and Gose and plan to get started in the coming months. I'm not sure if this would have occurred to me to combine the 2. Brilliant! I hope it plays out successfully.

Click to expand...

You can make a Gose from the left over whey from yogurt.


Great thread!

Want to see something weird? Of course you do. You're in a thread about sauerkraut beer.

My light colored, more active jug has developed some new action. The trub, which was previously so clearly stratified, has developed a layer of bubbles above the hops sediment and below the lees.

No idea what this is about, but I'm open to being educated.

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That. Is. Odd.

For the past week or so I've gotten into the habit of coming home and wrapping these jugs in a heating pad to give the lacto a boost. Doing so has resulted in an increase in surface bubbles and faster airlock activity.

However, a couple of days ago, something interesting happened, first in one jug, and then in the other. Both jugs have lightened up considerably, and when I place a heating pad around them, surface bubbles actually clear up, except around the edges, to the point that it appears that fermentation has nearly stopped. Airlock activity slows, but remains fairly frequent, at a few bubbles per minute.

Any ideas from folks more experienced with wild or bacteria fermentation about what I might be seeing here? Is fermentation wrapping up? Have proteins been broken down to the point that CO2 exits the beer more quickly, without forming surface foam?

If so, should I continue to warm this or let it ferment at room temp from here on out?