Aging beer: Facts, myths, and discussion

Smack packs still require starters to achieve the pitching rates discussed in this thread.

Lack of a secondary DOES NOT impact the amount of control a brewer has over things like carbonation and clarity. A secondary can be helpful in bulk aging for extended periods of time. However, you can achieve proper clarity and carbonation by applying sound procedures using a primary alone.

Thanks for this thread. I really like how you say the beer is ready when it tastes good and the Micheal Jackson quote is great!

I have a little question. If kegged beer is ready after carbonating why would bottled beer be any different? I know different conditions of yeast, the specific gravities, the kind of priming, and temperature of bottle storage could effect the time needed greatly. Shaking will speed up carbonation in bottles just as it does in a keg and I'm certain it has the same ill effects on the sediment. But does bottle conditioning mandate more aging?

I seen Austin Homebrew Supply's new kits and Forest says bottle it in 10 days and when it's carbonated it's ready. These are only 1.041 kits. That's nearly as low as I personally would bother to make.

Conroe said:

Thanks for this thread. I really like how you say the beer is ready when it tastes good and the Micheal Jackson quote is great!

I have a little question. If kegged beer is ready after carbonating why would bottled beer be any different? I know different conditions of yeast, the specific gravities, the kind of priming, and temperature of bottle storage could effect the time needed greatly. Shaking will speed up carbonation in bottles just as it does in a keg and I'm certain it has the same ill effects on the sediment. But does bottle conditioning mandate more aging?

I seen Austin Homebrew Supply's new kits and Forest says bottle it in 10 days and when it's carbonated it's ready. These are only 1.041 kits. That's nearly as low as I personally would bother to make.

Click to expand...

Bottle conditioning gernally mandates longer aging simply to carb the beer. I can transfer beer into keg and have a fully carbed been in 2 days..do that with a bottle. The point is... I can crash cool my primary carboy to drop the yeast out and than keg and drink in just a few days..I generally do not do this but even with rolling bottles to carb up quick you have to let the co2 dissolve back and the yeast to drop to the bottom to clear the beer. I do agree proper brewing styles will speed up the aging process, and that new beers with the right amount of aging will always taste fresher and better than anything that sits in a keg or bottle for months and months. My house stout was best at 4 weeks after brewing..it was great for 5 months but after the first week of taping the keg it gradually lost that fresh roasted coffee..it just wasn't the same at 3 months than it was at 1 month...This will obiously be different for all beer types and styles.

J

To brew Lagers faster, use glass rashing-rings (potatoe chip shaped glass) to your fermentor. the yeast will have more surface area to digest your brew and grow. Budweiser does this with beachwood. The only draw back is that you will rack into a secondary if you do not now (I always do anyway) or you will have to use an in-line filter.

This thread just expanded my mind immensely... Thanks to Yuri and everyone else who has posted! Great information and discussion!

Thanks for the great thread!

I just made a very simple pale ale 4 days ago and it is already done fermenting and the gravity sample I took tastes good! Without reading this thread I probably would have waited 3 or 4 weeks before kegging this but now I will have it on tap this weekend.

Iv heard over pitching yeast will give ya some off flavors. Great thread, and I'm going to start over pitching anyway. I'M a big fan of "Kettle to Guzzle" as soon as possible. I'm a screaming alcoholic that loves good beer.

+1 on the great discussion topic.

Personal opinion is that it depends greatly on the style of beer you're trying to make and that goes with the last comment around over pitching. if you over pitch you may (_MAY_) reduce the amount of esters in your final product in some belgian/hefe styles but for a majority of the basic american styles (that I brew commonly and quaff daily) you can consistently get from brewing to serving in 3 wks or less.

The brewery that I work part time at consistently hits about 2 week turnaround from brew to serving and has gotten it as low as 10 days for a saison.

I know that alot of people don't secondary, but I still like it for three reasons. You are really sure fermentation is done (if there is yeast in there, it can still ferment), it helps with clarification, and it makes you be patient and let it age a little longer so you aren't drinking green beer.

Click to expand...

Reason One: If you leave it in the primary the same occurs.
Reason Two: It will clear just as well in the primary in my experience.
Reason Three: Maybe for some but I leave it in the primary as long as need, up to 3 weeks at times.

I only secondary to free up a primary carboy.

I used to fuss over my beer fermenting. Looking in on it every morning and night, timing when fermentation started and when it was a minute overdue go into a frenzy of worry. Perhaps I exaggerate but for nearly all of my ales and lagers, I primary only and then keg.

I almost never look in on my repeat ales until a week is gone. I will rack to keg at 7 days with a hydrometer reading as I rack.

If I am brewing something higher gravity, hoppy, a new style or yeast or in any other way out of the norm, I follow procedures called for in that instance.

Brewing for me has become very uncomplicated but precise at the same time. I am precise about each step from grinding grain, mash temperatures, sanitation, boiling and chilling to fermentation temperature and pitching per Mr Malty.

In other words, I am in full agreement with the original poster.

And my beers are routinely exceeding my expectations.

Traditional fermentation times are areound 9-12 days for lagers, 2-4 days for ales. Secondary flavor maturation is a matter of taste. If your formula, yeast, fermentation regime permit, you can certainly get away with shorter times to packaging and serving. Many of the English beers are obviously quick to market. Short aging does risk off flavors due to higher concentrations of acetaldehyde, diacetyl, esters, and some fusel alcohols, but you're also avoiding off flavors from carbonyl formation - and that's a real advantage since homebrewers aren't very good at avoiding these.

You can effectively shorten maturation times by using a diacetyl rest. This is effective for almost all beer styles. Don't shorten too much though or you'll risk high acetaldehyde levels.

Probably one of the most effective ways to shorten maturation time is simply to krausen. Fresh, actively fermenting yeast does a great job of consuming off flavors.

You can always accelerate your primary fermentation by rousing your yeast (w/ CO2, shaking, etc). You'll reduce esters (potentially negative for your ales) and increase fusel alcohols (harsh taste, slick mouthfeel). If you're effectively rousing yeast you'll also be able to ferment at slightly higher temperatures successfully. This can be difficult with lower nutrient beers, but if you're using all malt you should be fine. Be careful, though - this practice was part of the flavor changes that brought about the downfall of Schlitz's...

DB Breweries practices continuous fermentation. Not practically available for homebrewers, but very interesting: they can produce beer in as little as 1-2 days. Flavor matching to traditional fermentation isn't very good.

Just taste your beer regularly and get a feel for how your yeast performs and the time it requires to taste like a good beer. It's all about your personal taste. It shouldn't take more than a few weeks for most ales and a couple of months for a proper lager to finish. Don't short your maturation times unnecessarily. This isn't rocket science.

Piotr said:

For the first time I bottled my beer skipping secondary. Brown Ale 1.042, 3 weeks primary and straight to the bottles.
And sure enough - it is over-carbonated. I think you can skip secondary, but only when you keg the beer and you can control the level of carbonation.

Click to expand...

What does going to a secondary have to do with over-carbonating in a bottle? I am new to this but I thought carbonating was done by the amount of sugar added (as long as fermentation is complete). I used Tastybrew's online sugar calculator and took out some of the sugar from my kit since the calculator said it was too much. I won't open one until this Friday so I'm far from an expert but I thought that is how it worked. Opinions? I am starting a Pale Ale this week and was going to do three weeks in the primary instead of two like I did with my amber ale but it seems like three weeks is pointless (I will be using a starter).

If everything else is consistent from batch to batch, then that would suggest that the fermentation was not yet completed when it was bottled. Being in secondary or not shouldn't matter as long as enough time was given to let the yeast finish its work.

I just discovered this thread, and Bravo!

I used to bottle, but kegging has accelerated my brewing cycle, and I am very pleased with that .. I have had some 4.5 week beers which were excellent...I know when bottling it would take longer...and it was always worth the wait.

Going to secondary to free up the primary used to be my theme, until I thought -"Gee, and extra bucket is $15 ... why not just do another primary ?"

Obviously, if I had a SS conical, I would prob be doing secondary, then keg (is this necc though ? Can't you just go straight on to the keg after say 10 days and a few yeast harvests ?)

Once nore - excellent and practical advice about a fun and forgiving hobby !

great info

If you use a stir-plate for your starters do you still need a 1 gallon starter to get a good pitching rate? Really the size of the starter is no indication of how many yeast cells have been produced.

MB Raines, Ph.D. - Guide to Yeast Culturing for Homebrewers - Maltose Falcons Home Brewing Society (Los Angeles Homebrewing)

I generally pitch a liquid yeast pack into 1000ml of wort on a stirplate. This should give me way over the pitching rate calculated with the MrMalty calculator (for most ales)

Also why do they always recommend stepping up by factors of 10? When yeast banking I use ~20ml containers, but I usually just pitch into 1000ml of wort for those as well, instead of stepping up to 200 then to 1000.

EDIT: answered my own question by reading further down in my linked article...

Close examination of Figure 3 indicates that yeast should not be diluted more than 200 times the previous volume. In otherwords 10 ml should not be stepped up to more than 2 liters. The rationale behind this is simple. During yeast propagation it is important to keep the yeast growing exponentially (Figure 3, phase III). Diluting the yeast out too far will slow down their growth and give bacteria a chance to overtake the culture.

Click to expand...

So I am perfectly fine pitching 20 ml into 1L of wort, which will get me 360-720 billion cells (The starters used in the article are 500ml). Considering that pitching rate should be 200billion cells for a typical 5 gallon batch... I'm good. I think this is why my last porter did not attenuate as usual, I didn't have time to make a starter so just used the smack pack, big difference.

I agree that lack of a secondary doesn't necessarily impact clarity and carbonation, but you ARE going to impact flavor. Especially autolyzed yeast, if you're sitting on yeast for long periods of time.

jxm387 said:

I agree that lack of a secondary doesn't necessarily impact clarity and carbonation, but you ARE going to impact flavor. Especially autolyzed yeast, if you're sitting on yeast for long periods of time.

Click to expand...

Do a forum search for autolysis. It takes longer than you think. I've had beers in the primary for up to 8 weeks with no detectable autolysis.

Yuri_Rage said:

I've had beers in the primary for up to 8 weeks with no detectable autolysis.

Click to expand...

+1 to that.

Yuri - As always, very helpful posts. And even for those brewers who aren't new, its nice to be reminded of some solid brewing habits that maybe some of use should pay more attention too.

Thanks again.

I wonder what in the world Budweiser does to their beer that peaks it's taste at 28 days, then starts to slide downhill after that.

Click to expand...

Also, we're talking about Budweiser, here. "Peaking" is a relative term.

Click to expand...

You just can't polish a turd Beavis.

Years ago when I started brewing all I had available was the small Wyeast smack packs (now called the 'Propagator'). I would make a 1 pint starter and that worked fine for every 'typical' ale I did (fine regarding attenuation...not necessarily fine regarding off-flavors). In any case, I thought I was pitching plenty and certainly had no idea it was a fraction of what it should be.

I still need to get the timing down. I was used to having my small 1 pint starters at high krausen when I pitched...but if I pitch the 'correct' amount then that's a 1-1.5 qt. starter in 5 gallons and I hate adding that much 'bad beer' to my fermenter. So I guess I need to start the starters earlier so they can finish and flocc and then I can decant the liquid and only pitch the slurry. Even my cold-pitched lagers krausen within 12-18 hours with just a 1 qt. starter (from an Activator or vial) but per the pitching rate calcs that's like 1/4-1/3 of what it should be.

I drink so little that fast turnaround is the least of my worries. I'm now starting to brew more lagers and funky Belgians just because they take more time (at least this way I can brew without creating a big logjam at the keezer).

Yuri_Rage said:

Keep the recipe simple. Heaps of spices, large amounts of strong flavored malts, hefty hops schedules, and non-traditional ingredients can force you to condition the beer for an extended period. There's nothing wrong with big, complex recipes, but don't expect a quick turnaround when brewing them.

Discuss.

Click to expand...

Heaps of spices, large amounts of strong flavored malts, hefty hops schedules, and non-traditional ingredients make it fun!

Yuri_Rage said:

Do a forum search for autolysis. It takes longer than you think. I've had beers in the primary for up to 8 weeks with no detectable autolysis.

Click to expand...

I have you beat here.

I forgot about a beer in a closet, and it sat for SEVEN MONTHS on the yeast cake.

It had other off flavors, as it was my last not-so-temperature-controlled beer, but there was zero autolysis flavor.

TheFlatline said:

I have you beat here.

I forgot about a beer in a closet, and it sat for SEVEN MONTHS on the yeast cake.

It had other off flavors, as it was my last not-so-temperature-controlled beer, but there was zero autolysis flavor.

Click to expand...

I went between 12-18 months once. It didn't carb properly (I think I forgot the priming sugar), but other than that was perfectly fine.

What about cold crashing your beer and dry hopping?

Do you crash first then dry hop?

Dry Hop then crash once the 10-14 days passes ?

OR cold Crash, Dry Hop, then Cold Crash Again?

Grim_Ale said:

What about cold crashing your beer and dry hopping?

Do you crash first then dry hop?

Dry Hop then crash once the 10-14 days passes ?

OR cold Crash, Dry Hop, then Cold Crash Again?

Click to expand...

Rack to secondary with gelatin. Wait 4-5 days for clarity. Dry hop for 5-7 days. Rack to keg and crash chill.

English PLease.....lol.

But seriously, I dry hop in primary and willl not have a secondary carboy for about 2 months.

I also Bottle, dont have the cash for a kegging system so thats also not helpful either.

I appreciate the info but its just jibber jabber to me.

Grim, once fermentation is complete, (or two weeks) dry hop in the primary for one week. Then cold crash for 3-4 days and rack to your bottling bucket.

Grim_Ale said:

What about cold crashing your beer and dry hopping?

Do you crash first then dry hop?

Dry Hop then crash once the 10-14 days passes ?

OR cold Crash, Dry Hop, then Cold Crash Again?

Click to expand...

I dry hop and then cold crash everything.


TL

Great thread, thanks for all the tips guys..

Someone above suggested tipping the bottles over every couple of days to re-suspend the yeast. This seems to make alot of sense, kick those lazy buggers in the butt and force them to do their job. Haha..

Is there any reason this might be a bad idea? Provided of course you give the yeast enough time after the last shake to settle out and flocculate?

D

CnnmnSchnpps said:

Someone above suggested tipping the bottles over every couple of days to re-suspend the yeast. This seems to make alot of sense, kick those lazy buggers in the butt and force them to do their job. Haha..

Is there any reason this might be a bad idea? Provided of course you give the yeast enough time after the last shake to settle out and flocculate?

Click to expand...

IMO if won't do any harm, but it won't help much either. Yeast that already floculated are clumped together and after shaking they will be back on the bottom within hour.

EDIT: I must disagree with myself, I've just read that Fix recommends rousing highly flocculant yeast, so it must work somehow...

Piotr said:

For the first time I bottled my beer skipping secondary. Brown Ale 1.042, 3 weeks primary and straight to the bottles.
And sure enough - it is over-carbonated. I think you can skip secondary, but only when you keg the beer and you can control the level of carbonation.

Click to expand...

???? not sure what you are asking or saying here..

Secondary has no affect on carbonation of your beer. It simply is to allow the beer to clarify and for some to bulk age a beer. I use it only when I want to dry hop a beer or need room in a primary. In your case you more than likely had more yeast in your bottles but other than that.. I always go directly from primary when I keg and when I bottle...no affect on the beer either way..I would imagine you used more sugar when you bottled than normal..

Rolling bottles for me speed up the process a bit..I have carbed beer in less than a week at 70 degrees by rolling them daily..however it only makes you drink the beer faster so the full 3 to 4 weeks is what I usually do when I bottle.


J

discgolfin said:

???? not sure what you are asking or saying here..

Secondary has no affect on carbonation of your beer.

Click to expand...

Since that Brown Ale I made some 2 dozens of batches, many of them with no secondary, and I must admit I've never had the overcabonation effect again.
What was wrong with that batch? I don't know.

The worst things you can do to ruin your beer is......

Not using enough yeast for the quantity brewed.

Fermenting in the upper range of the yeast's suggested range of temperature. The colder you go the better because you get less esters and a much cleaner beer. Use a refrigerator 1 time with a digital controller and you will be convinced!

Not being sanitary on the cold side.

Not aging long enough.

Should you cold crash if you bottle or just for kegging since the beer will be in the bottles for 3 weeks before drinking anyway?

I've been adding a small amount of t-58 to batches that I think may have cleared to much. That yeast jumps the gun and goes like a bat out of hell. I see why some commercial brewers bottle condition with it. The down side of it is although it eats up the primming sugar in a matter of days it takes well over a week to flocculate clear again.

Lately I have been going for a 4-5 week brew to glass turnaround on my beers. I like to have all taps full and with my limited brew sesssions the only way to achieve this is to get things on tap sooner.

Current process:

1. Keep beer in the primary for two weeks (Typically it's done by this point).
2. Turn down the temperature control and let the beer rest at around 35 degrees for 2-3 days.
3. Keg and let carbonate at normal pressure for 10-12 days
4. Start drinking.

Basically if you look at it, I'm using a 2 week primary/2 week secondary method.

I fully understand that longer aging typically results in even better beer, but if I'm enjoying it at a month and the few people I share it with are enjoying it as well, then I might as well be drinking it. Normally it's just me anyway, and depending on the beer it can take me about 1-3 months to drain a keg, I still can enjoy the flavor changes over time.

+1 on both crash cooling and gelatine adding. I used only primary fermenter and fermented for about 10 days at 17-18°C (63-65°F) then added a tablespoon of gelatine, crashed it to 4-5°C (40-41°F) and let it sit for about a week. Since I bottle, I racked it to a bucket, added 135g (4,75oz) of cane sugar and a tablespoon of gelatine again and bottled. After another week of priming in the bottles at (17-18°C) I've got the most clear and estery free (got sick of the floral aroma in my beers, even IPAs) beer (oatmeal stout) I've ever had. My batch was 20L (5.3 gal). I think what made a difference was also the fact that I let the beer ferment at 17-18°C after priming not the room temperature as suggested by some guys around here. I partialy ruined my lager by priming it at room temps. PRIME AT SUGGESTED FERMENTING TEMPERATURES, PREFERABLY IN THEIR LOWER RANGE. The preparation of the gelatine is the easiest thing and it helps a lot. Just add a tablespoon of gelatine (not the agar based stuff but true gelatine) into a half of cup water and let it sit for ten minutes. Then slowly!!! raise the temperature until the particles dissolve completely. NEVER EXCEED 60°C (140°F) or you will ruin the stuff. Then cool in a cold water bath (no need for extreme cooling just so that you can feel by hand that it is just a bit warm or so) and pour it into fermenter, priming bucket or keg and you are done. Beer is drinkable after 3 1/2 weeks after it first touched fermenter. :rockin:

My beer is still tongue numbingly bitter after 3 weeks in the primary. It usually takes another 3 weeks in the bottle to settle down. How are you getting these fast turn arounds? Do I just have a low threshold for bitterness or am I not doing something I should be doing.

dfohio...

This thread was intended to answer your question...I'm not sure what else to tell you.

Yuri_Rage said:

dfohio...

This thread was intended to answer your question...I'm not sure what else to tell you.

Click to expand...

What was meant by my comment was that I already do the things you have talked about in the thread...I believe my question was relevant and unanswered.



If you would like to pm me some help that would be fine that way you can delete these posts to keep the thread clean.