First lager: Lagering on the yeast, filtering into kegs?

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betarhoalphadelta

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Hey folks, I'm about to do my first lager, and also interested in doing my first filtered beer (as I get annoyed by stirring up sediment every time I move a keg).

For various reasons, I'd prefer to avoid using kegs as brite tanks, so I want to essentially use this process:

1) Brew an Oktoberfest in the next couple weeks -- I brew 10 gallon batches, and ferment in a Sanke keg that I sterilize and completely seal (except for the blowoff), so I'm not concerned about permeability.
2) Ferment 2-3 weeks or so at 48-50 degrees.
3) Add gelatin, slowly drop the temp over ~2 weeks to 33 degrees, hold ~3-4 weeks.
4) Transfer under CO2 pressure through a 1 micron filter into serving kegs.

I typically don't worry much about autolysis, but even so I rarely have a need to leave beer on the yeast that long since I can usually bulk age my ales in corny kegs. But I understand lagers want to keep some yeast alive during that lagering phase for clean-up, so I don't want to filter prior to lagering, meaning I'd need a brite tank in the middle (and buying 2 more kegs).

Thoughts? Will this process have any serious flaws that I'm missing?
 
I would do a diacetyl rest after primary. Let the temp get up to 70 and hold for a couple days.

Then drop it to lagering temps (I do it quickly) and lager.
 
I have never used gelatin but have my first lager just finishing fermenting and getting ready to lager.

Do you think that just pouring the gelatin in will distribute it enough, or will it only affect a small area of the volume?
 
I would do a diacetyl rest after primary. Let the temp get up to 70 and hold for a couple days.

Then drop it to lagering temps (I do it quickly) and lager.

I was planning on pitching cold (mid 40's), and had heard that diacetyl rest isn't so much of an issue when pitching cold. But either way, I can do the diacetyl rest if necessary.

The big question is whether I'll have any negative effects of keeping the beer on the yeast ~8 weeks.
 
I have never used gelatin but have my first lager just finishing fermenting and getting ready to lager.

Do you think that just pouring the gelatin in will distribute it enough, or will it only affect a small area of the volume?

I've only used it so far in ales. Gelatin seems to take a little effort to dissolve, so I'd consider dissolving it in water before going into the fermenter.

That said, I think with a lager, the gelatin is not as big of an issue as it is with an ale. The lagering process really clears the beer as it is. I typically use it with ales a few days before kegging (when I cold crash) to speed up the clearing process. But I don't see a downside to using the additional fining it gives me, and gelatin's cheap, so I might as well use it.
 
To answer the actual question: Yes, you'll be fine leaving the beer on the yeast that long, especially at lager temperatures. I doubt you'll need to filter at that point, especially if you've shortened the dip tube on the keg, but if you have the equipment it couldn't hurt.
 
why would you add gelatin soon after fermentation? Isn't the whole lagering process involves yeast that still in suspension? Gelatin will remove it. I would wait with gelatin untill last week of lagering process. And if you filter it really defeats the purpose of gelatin all together
 
Chad -- thanks.

paraordnance -- gelatin helps things drop, but gelatin (in my fairly extensive experience with it) doesn't clear *everything* perfectly. So I don't think gelatin will pull all the yeast out, only speed up the process some.
 
I was planning on pitching cold (mid 40's), and had heard that diacetyl rest isn't so much of an issue when pitching cold. But either way, I can do the diacetyl rest if necessary.

The big question is whether I'll have any negative effects of keeping the beer on the yeast ~8 weeks.

That's not always so. Some yeast strains produce more diacetyl than others, but pitching cold does help. I'd still consider doing one.

I think that lagering on the yeast/gelatin is a mistake. I know others have done it, but I think a lager should be very clean and crisp and without any yeast flavors at all.

I don't use gelatin at all, as some of my friends are vegetarians, and my lagers are always crystal clear. If you're filtering anyway, why the gelatin? That seems pointless.

I'd lager in a keg (getting it OFF of the yeast cake after the primary/diacetyl rest) and consider just jumping to a serving keg and/or filtering at that time if needed.
 
Yooper,

If I'm filtering anyway, will that avoid any of the "yeast flavors" that you mention from letting the beer sit on the yeast?

The main thing about racking to another keg (which is 2 kegs since it's a 10 gallon batch) is that I just don't have many spares around right now... So it's a question of buying more or letting it rest on the yeast.

If it will harm the beer, I'll buy more kegs. If not, it's something I'd prefer to push out into the future.
 
Yooper (and the others recommending a d-rest),

Based on the wiki article, it seemed as if doing a 1-2 degree decrease in temp from ferment to lagering would keep the yeast active enough to clean up diacetyl:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Fermenting_Lagers#Maturation_of_the_beer

However, doing a d-rest would allow me to cool from the d-rest temperature to lagering temps as fast as my fridge will bring it down, as "shocking" the yeast isn't a concern if they have no diacetyl to clean up.

Is my understanding accurate? If I don't do an official d-rest, I need to SLOWLY drop temps so the yeast are able to clean up diacetyl. If I raise the temp to do the d-rest, then I can crash cool it to lagering temps without concern.
 
why would you add gelatin soon after fermentation? Isn't the whole lagering process involves yeast that still in suspension? Gelatin will remove it. I would wait with gelatin untill last week of lagering process. And if you filter it really defeats the purpose of gelatin all together

I don't think gelatin removes all the yeast. Filtering does, though.

You do raise an issue that I am also a little unclear on... When you've dropped a lager to 32F for cold conditioning, my understanding is that all the yeast is going to go dormant. All the cold conditioning action is a matter of chemical precipitation, as opposed to a warm conditioning process that involves yeast metabolism.

this would imply that filtering or fining immediately before cold conditioning is complimentary to the process and not conflicting.
 
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