Aromatic/Amarillo SMASH

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dcp27

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Trying something a little different this weekend. I'm doing an aromatic/amarillo SMASH in style of a marzen by the #s, but with an ale yeast (can't lager) and large hop aroma... so really not a marzen, but whatever I dunno what else to call it.

"Aroma Therapy"
5gal batch
OG: 1.054ish
IBUs: 20ish?
SRM: 20ish

10lbs Aromatic Malt
3.3oz Amarillo (@flameout w/ about 20mins steep)
S-04 or windsor yeast
mash @150F, ferment @66F (cooler if I can)

I wanted to do this with SF lager (WLP810) yeast, but I'm not sure if I can get my temp down low enough. BM's Oktoberfast got good reviews so figured S-04 will work fine for this. I'm thinking I'll need the lower mash temp with the grain bill, but I'm not sure if a higher temp would be more suited for this? I know ohiobrewtus did an aromatic/cascade SMASH pale ale at 150F that came out well.

As for the IBUs, I read in BYO about a brewery that whirlpools about 2oz (if rounded to 5g batch) of hops in a cream ale and was measured to be about 25IBUs. Mine probably won't be as thorough so figured an extra oz should put me in the same neighborhood.

Any advice/concerns?
 
I was just listening to an old episode of the Jamil Show and he claimed it could self convert and that he had considered doing a 100% Aromatic but had never gotten around to it. Sounds kind of fun.
 
It can convert. Ohiobrewtus for one did a similar SMaSH beer. It was pretty good, if I remember correctly.

+1, I PM'd before I thought about this and he said his actually came out good and was planning to try it again, so I figured it was worth a shot.

From our wiki: "Aromatic malt is high in diastatic power and can convert itself completely; however, because of the extremely strong aromatics it lends to the finished beer, most brewers avoid using more than 10% in a batch to maintain balance"
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Belgian_Aromatic
 
just picked up half a sack of aromatic myself to try this out. Let us know how it pairs with the Amarillo. I'm still trying to decide how to hop my SMASH and happen to have about 1/2 a lb of amarillo in the freezer.
 
This is one of those things that seems so absurdly wrong to me that I can't wrap my head around how it might be possible. Please keep us posted when it is done - I'd be very interested in hearing how it turns out.
 
I'm going to get this started in an hour or so, any thoughts on mash temp? I was originally thinking 150F, but now I'm thinking 154-156F.
 
I would go as low as possible if I were you. You're going to get a TON of unfermentables out of a malt so highly kilned. This is very possibly going to be overwhelmingly cloyingly sweet and way out of balance if you mash high. I'd go 148. Just my opinion though - if you want the maltiest beer in the history of the universe, go for it!
 
Whatever you do you probably are going to want to go for at least a 90 minute mash and be sure to do an iodine test before moving on. It will not have a lot of diastatic power. You may even want to consider picking up some supplemental amylase enzyme to add if you have time.
 
Got too ambitious and ended up doing a step mash, 30mins @ 142F, 151F, and 157F. Ended up @ 1.057OG, pitched a pack of S-04 @ 67F into the swamp cooler. I'll update in a few weeks when I bottle.
 
Did you end up doing an iodine test? I had thought aromatic was not self-converting, so I'd be curious if it came back negative.
 
Did you end up doing an iodine test? I had thought aromatic was not self-converting, so I'd be curious if it came back negative.

I didn't do one, but shouldn't the nearly 80% efficiency prove that it is self-converting?
 
yes, obviously there was conversion, i was just wondering how thorough that was and how rich the dextrin content ended up. there could still be some residual starches, and even a very high dextrin content can have an effect on an iodine test.
 
update: checked the gravity on it today to see if it was ready to bottle this weekend, since hadn't see any activity since last weds. unfortunately it only got down to 1.021, instead of an anticipated 1.016ish. I'm guessing thats about on par for an all aromatic with S-04 though, so unless I see a change in SG by then or anyone thinks I should give it more time, I think I'm going to go through with the bottling. I'd usually give it 3-4 weeks in the primary, but I figured with the simple recipe, overpitching and low OG/IBUs that 2 weeks should be sufficient.

the sample was actually pretty good. it wasn't overly malty or sweet and had a great nose to it, with just enough bitterness to keep it pretty balanced.
 
Wow, I hope it turns out well. Definitely keep us updated. I'd be intrigued to try this if it works out.
 
Bad news, went to bottle it today, only to find out that it is now infected :mad: ... at least i think its an infection, i havent had one before. last week when i checked the gravity, everything looked normal and the top was clear. today theres a film on top with lots of white bubbles n stuff

anything I can do to salvage this or am i dumping it and trying again next weekend?
 
If there is a whitish film then yeah, it's most likely infected; if when you disturb the surface you see the whitish stuff break up into a little bits, then yes it definitely is infected.

Sorry for your loss.
 
as long as the gravity sample tastes fine, go ahead and bottle. ive had the white film with no tastable infection
 
as long as the gravity sample tastes fine, go ahead and bottle. ive had the white film with no tastable infection

really? did you do anything or just rack from underneath? im definitely up for giving a try if theres a chance its fine.
 
Go ahead and bottle but store them in something leakproof such as a big rubbermaid tub. It sounds like it could be a Brettanomyces infection. If that is the case, as is the case for many other kinds of infections as well, the bugs that got in there will continue to ferment starches and more complex sugars that the saccharomyces left behind. This could result in bottle bombs, so just prepare for that.

You'll probably want to drink it sorta quickly once it is carbonated. How does it taste?
 
should i wait on bottling until the SG stabilizes then or do i want to get this bottled as quick as possible to limit any unwanted effects?
 
Of course you want to make sure the gravity is not dropping noticeably anymore, but understand that Brett works pretty slowly (if that's what you have). It can take Brettanomyces up to a year to ferment the complex sugars left behind by saccharomyces. You could have bottle bombs in two weeks, six months, or not at all.

Make sure the gravity is stable, and bottle it. Just keep a close eye on it and contain the bottles if possible. Open them regularly and be ready to drink most of it fairly quickly in case it starts to overcarbonate or the flavor goes south.
 
could I use campden tablets to kill the brett and then transfer and re-pitch so i can carb it?
 
you could try it, but K2O5S2 is not always effective against brett, and of course we aren't sure it's even brett. I'd just open at least one bottle every few days to monitor carbonation. Your gravity may not even drop any more than it has.
 
How does it taste?

If you do have a brett infection it could make for an interesting flavor evolution. I'm sure it's super malty right now with all of the aromatic malt, but a lot of the dextrins would break down if there is brett and it would definitely alter the character of the beer.
 
I haven't tasted it since the infection, but I'll give it a taste tonight. Maybe I'll save some in a growler to see how it develops and bottle the rest given it tastes ok still.
 
ok so i just tasted it and it tasted the same as it did last week (even smelled the same - wee heavyish), so i skimmed off the top and went ahead with bottling. ill update in a few weeks how it turned out
 
so it seems the infection continued in the bottles since i see it sitting on top. am i gunna hafta just close my eyes and pretend its not there to drink it or is there a better way to not actually see it while i try one? i may re-do a small batch this weekend while i brew something else if i dont have another choice.
 
You could uncap them all and add a measured amount of potassium sorbate and quickly recap, and hope to still have some kind of carbonation when you finally drink it.
 
Well I gave one a try tonight. The infection completely killed any hop presence, plus gives an off-aroma (sulfury-moldy maybe, tough to describe) and a slight after-taste. The underlying beer is pretty good, but its not what was anticipating and not all that enjoyable at the moment thanks to the infection. Hopefully some extra time will help, but ill be re-doing this when i get the chance.
 
I tried a 100% Aromatic Hopped up Ale at Three Floyds yesterday and it was fantastic! I think I'm going to attempt something similar for my next brew. Aromatic/Simcoe SMaSH with a target IBU around 70ish. The beer I tried tasted very similar to Bear Republic Hop Rod Rye and Aromatic would be a hell of a lot easier to mash than Rye.
 
update:

so I've given this a try a few times lately and its definitely gotten much better. the infection makes it foam up quite a bit, but if I'm quick enough, I can get a normal pour and be able to taste what this beer really is like without any ill-effects from the infection. it has a strong malty aroma with a decent amarillo scent behind it, but it definitely could have used somewhat of a dry hop. the flavor is again malt heavy, but does have enough of a lingering hop presence along with it to balance it out. all in all, its a pretty easy drinking brew that came out kinda marzen / light APA like, but with less hop aroma than I was hoping.
 
I am glad your beer turned out well even with the infection. I am going to be doing a 3gal batch of Aromatic/Amarillo smash here soon.

6.25lb Aromatic
0.33oz Amarillo 60min
0.75oz Amarillo 15min
0.75oz Amarillo 2min

OG 1.056
IBU 37

With how yours turned out and you had the chance to do it over again, would you change up your yeast? I was thinking WLP001 or maybe even the Leuven Pale Ale yeast, its belgian, but the esters are fairly subdued.

I would love to hear what yeast you think would be optimal.

Thanks.
Kyle
 
When I re-do this I'll probably use S-04 again, but 001 is a very close 2nd. If you are going pale ale-ish with it I'd use the 001.

Thankfully mine continued to improve and is pretty good now, but its still nowhere as good as that first sample I pulled before the infection hit. Hope you get better luck
 
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