Burned out Heating Element - RIMS

Well, I burned out my heating element. I didn't realize I had a very very slow running mash... welp. During the meltdown, the plastic around the element base melted away and POP went the GFCI.

Plastic everywhere.

I ended up having to do a decoction to get the mash up to temp. That was a pain because I wasn't ready for it and I had never done one before.

With that said... I think I like decoction mashing and plan on trying more in the future!

does it still taste good? melting plastic has an odd odor.

You really really have to setup the tube that it cannot run dry. How did the liquid all run out?

Ouch, that stinks. What sort of set up does one need to assure that the element does not run dry?

JVD_X said:

Well, I burned out my heating element. I didn't realize I had a very very slow running mash... welp. During the meltdown, the plastic around the element base melted away and POP went the GFCI.

Plastic everywhere.

I ended up having to do a decoction to get the mash up to temp. That was a pain because I wasn't ready for it and I had never done one before.

With that said... I think I like decoction mashing and plan on trying more in the future!

Click to expand...

Why was the flow rate so slow? Was it an accident? If you were using well modified malts (almost all malts available here in the US are well modified) decoction doesn't really buy you anything. Decoction is usually only used on poor quality malts. If you decide to do decoction mashing in the future keep an eye on the pH (<5.7) of the mash because it is really easy to extract tannins when decocting.

I think the wort supply would have to enter a vertically mounted RIMS tube at the bottom and that would need to be lower than the MLT port. The output has to be higher than the element reaches. What I'm not sure about is if there needs to be some kind of siphon break at the top. I don't think so.

Bobby_M said:

You really really have to setup the tube that it cannot run dry. How did the liquid all run out?

Click to expand...

I guess it boiled off.

Sawdustguy said:

Why was the flow rate so slow? Was it an accident? If you were using well modified malts (almost all malts available here in the US are well modified) decoction doesn't really buy you anything. Decoction is usually only used on poor quality malts. If you decide to do decoction mashing in the future keep an eye on the pH (<5.7) of the mash because it is really easy to extract tannins when decocting.

Click to expand...

I have a false bottom but some grain and rice got through anyhow and clogged in 1/2" out to the pump. I'll keep an eye on the pH the future... I didn't know that. I was using 5.2 buffer so maybe I didn't have a problem.

I have attached a pic...

to avoid this in the future can you add a second thermo to measure temps at the heating element that will shut off if it gets above 212? If its difficult to do that I think you can even get a temperature triggered fuse as a failsafe.

k1v1116 said:

to avoid this in the future can you add a second thermo to measure temps at the heating element that will shut off if it gets above 212? If its difficult to do that I think you can even get a temperature triggered fuse as a failsafe.

Click to expand...

I wonder if my pid already has this feature...

JVD_X said:

I wonder if my pid already has this feature...

Click to expand...

Why not use one of the alarm relays in the PID to break the connection from the PID to the SSR when your sensor reads 200*?

It seems that wherever you have your sensor currently mounted was allowed to run dry also. It would probably be a good idea to have it mounted at the top of the heating chamber. Boiling wort would make steam and have the element shut off. Do you have a pic of how the tube was mounted?

Bobby_M said:

It seems that wherever you have your sensor currently mounted was allowed to run dry also. It would probably be a good idea to have it mounted at the top of the heating chamber. Boiling wort would make steam and have the element shut off. Do you have a pic of how the tube was mounted?

Click to expand...

I mount it at a 45 degree angle with the inlets are placed facing upwards so if the pump lost vacuum (for example if the hose split) there would always be mash liquid in the chamber. Obviously, this did not work or it did work and the liquid boiled off.

The sensor is at the top of the tube.

This is my primary reason for going to a HERMS configuration - I have a much better chance of ensuring that liquid will always be on the element.

In addition, I believe this also speaks to reasons why a shorter, wider mash tun is superior to a tall thinner one when using a RIMS system... my mash runoff is always so slow. Much slower than either one of my pumps can pump at.

Also contributing is my siteglass on the mashtun... when the pump evacuates the liquid under the false bottom it starts sucking air through the siteglass.

Interesting. How big is your false bottom? I'm basically going to give false bottoms one more chance by trying a 12" square piece of 20x20 mesh on top to keep the holes from clogging. I have the same problem you do with the mash getting compacted.

JVD_X said:

Also contributing is my siteglass on the mashtun... when the pump evacuates the liquid under the false bottom it starts sucking air through the siteglass.

Click to expand...

I guess that defeats the purpose for having a siteglass then. Have you considered a slotted manifold to reduce the chance of a vaccum forming under the false bottom?

My RIMS failed spectacularly last year. I was just recircing water through it, making sure everything was alright before my first brew of the year. I left it alone for a little bit and when I came back out I saw steam pouring out of the shed. I thought to myself, 'Oh crap, the shed it going to be soaked'. When i got closer I realized it was smoke pouring out of the shed.

There hadn't been any short, and it was on a 20A circuit, so it never had a current overdraw either. One of the fittings on the RIMS unit had broken off, pouring all the water onto the floor of the shed and leaving the element dry. By the time i got out there, all the solder fittings had already melted off and the point where the RIMS heater was touching my wood stand was billowing smoke. Luckily I had the RIMS unit insulated with fiberglass, or the stand would;ve already been on fire when i got out there.

Port mortem:


Mounting location:

Wow, I guess that's a testimate to what can go wrong if your RIMS system springs a leak.

I purchased an adjustable flow switch for my system that cuts power to the heating element if the flow drops below 0.5 GPM exiting the heater. You can find them on eBay for around $25.

Where is you sensor mounted? Is it mounted in the RIMS tube? My temperature sensor (thermocouple) is mounted in the rims tube and I use the PID alarm relay to open the contol line to the SSR if the temperature in the RIMS tube goes over 200*. It's a feature of your PID that is there exactly for a situation like this. In a situation like yours the worst that can happen is I loose a $12.00 heating element but I will never have to worry about stuff melting or a fire.

Sawdustguy wrote:
Why not use one of the alarm relays in the PID to break the connection from the PID to the SSR when your sensor reads 200*?

Click to expand...

Here is another option if you don't wont to rely on your temp controller.



The black round part on top of the heater is a safety temp snap action switch I installed to keep my incubator safe.


Cheers,
ClaudiusB

Bobby_M said:

Interesting. How big is your false bottom? I'm basically going to give false bottoms one more chance by trying a 12" square piece of 20x20 mesh on top to keep the holes from clogging. I have the same problem you do with the mash getting compacted.

Click to expand...

I have the mash lauter tun from minibrew. It works great batch sparging.

ClaudiusB said:

Here is another option if you don't wont to rely on your temp controller.

The black round part on top of the heater is a safety temp snap action switch I installed to keep my incubator safe.


Cheers,
ClaudiusB

Click to expand...

Hi Claudis, I don't understand that pic...

Hi Claudis, I don't understand that pic...

Click to expand...

JVD_X sorry for my bad explanation.

To prevent a meltdown like this


I chose a temp safety switch wired in series with the heating element and attached it close to my heater element as shown above.
With my setup I am not depending on the Temp controller's alarm relay should the SSR or temp controller fail, the function is the same as in Sawdustguy's post.
This is just another option, Sawdustguy's way of doing is the cheapest way and works very well.

The switches come in different trip temperatures, amp ratings and mounting configurations.
Top view



Bottom view.


I hope I did a better with my explanation.

Cheers,
ClaudiusB

Sawdustguy said:

Where is you sensor mounted? Is it mounted in the RIMS tube? My temperature sensor (thermocouple) is mounted in the rims tube and I use the PID alarm relay to open the contol line to the SSR if the temperature in the RIMS tube goes over 200*. It's a feature of your PID that is there exactly for a situation like this. In a situation like yours the worst that can happen is I loose a $12.00 heating element but I will never have to worry about stuff melting or a fire.

Click to expand...

Sawdustguy

Does your set up actually stop power to the element or does it just set off the alarm to warn you?

Can you give some more details on how you set this up. Maybe a step by step on the programming for and what, if any, additional wiring you had to do.

I have a rims with a pid and rtd sensor set up similar to this one. Would love to set up the alarm as a safety layer.

southpawbrew said:

Sawdustguy

Does your set up actually stop power to the element or does it just set off the alarm to warn you?

Can you give some more details on how you set this up. Maybe a step by step on the programming for and what, if any, additional wiring you had to do.

I have a rims with a pid and rtd sensor set up similar to this one. Would love to set up the alarm as a safety layer.

Click to expand...

sawdustguy can answer with authority, but "alarm2" on the common PIDs folks use is usually a double-action mechanical relay. It has two inputs and one output. When the alarm is NOT active, one input is connected to the output. When the alarm IS active, the other input is connected to the output.

You could run one of the normal SSR output signal of the PID back into the alarm2 input that is normally connected when the alarm is not on. From the output of the alarm2 relay, you run that wire to your SSR.

This way, when the alarm is not ON, the PID can drive the SSR output, which will be allowed to pass through the alarm2 relay, and turn on the SSR.

When the alarm fires, the alarm2 relay in the PID will switch, breaking the connection between the PID's SSR output and the actual SSR.

Did that make sense?

Sorry... it's alarm1 ("J1" pins) and not alarm2 ("J2" pins). The J1 pins in the diagram translates to :

-When alarm1 is not active, pin3 and pin4 will be connected together.
-When alarm1 is active, pin5 and pin4 will be connected together.

You currently have pins6 and pin7 going to the SSR directly.

Instead, connect pin7 to pin3. Then connect pin6 and pin4 to the SSR.

End result: SSR cannot be turned on if alarm1 has fired.

That is a great precaution to have set up. Thanks for the visual it made sense once I looked at that.

When I was testing my rims I had the valve on my pump closed and didn't notice until the rtd was reading 205 in the rims tube. So glad I was testing and it was water and not sweet sweet wort that would have just fouled the inside of my shiny new stainless.

Thanks again

southpawbrew said:

Sawdustguy

Does your set up actually stop power to the element or does it just set off the alarm to warn you?

Can you give some more details on how you set this up. Maybe a step by step on the programming for and what, if any, additional wiring you had to do.

I have a rims with a pid and rtd sensor set up similar to this one. Would love to set up the alarm as a safety layer.

Click to expand...

It interrupts the signal from the PID to the SSR turning off the element and sends an audible alarm letting you know something is wrong.

southpaw... referring back to my diagram, an audible alarm could be added by redoing the wiring a little.

edit... actually, this would only sound the alarm when the temp was too high AND the PID was trying to fire the element.

I seriously love this forum.

This is probably the 2nd most important thread going into my electric build (After the GFCI threads) It's so simple that not doing it could be called negligence.

Another note for my build!

Thanks guys!

Edit: I vote sticky to help any new RIMS builder...

SweetSounds said:

I seriously love this forum.

This is probably the 2nd most important thread going into my electric build (After the GFCI threads)

This is so simple that not doing it could be called negligence.

Another note for my build!

Thanks guys!

Edit: I vote sticky to help any new RIMS builder...

Click to expand...

I can't agree more. I am in the process of doing my studies of RIMS assembly for my system and the last thing I need is to create a pipe bomb in my garage. I have little experience in electrical systems, so most of my learning is done through this forum and the more information available from those with experience the better. I have read a lot of the RIMS threads already (many of them 4-5 times) but the more photos, drawings, etc. the better! Thanks Walker for the diagrahm. Helps a lot.

Disclaimer: I've never actually done this, but I understand how the J1 and J2 relays on the PIDs work, and this should accomplish what you want. I honestly never even thought about this until sawdustguy mentioned it, and it was kind of like... "Ah! Yeah! That would be easy with the alarm relays built into the thing!"

I am doing HERMS and don't really need this, but my buddy is building RIMs and I will absolutely suggest this to him.

I suggest you test it first with a low setting for alarm1 and make sure it functions properly.

What I personally want is a float switch installed my HLT that will break the SSR control signal going from PID to SSR so that my element can't be fired when there is too little water in my tank (to prevent dry firing).

Walker said:

Disclaimer: I've never actually done this, but I understand how the J1 and J2 relays on the PIDs work, and this should accomplish what you want. I honestly never even thought about this until sawdustguy mentioned it, and it was kind of like... "Ah! Yeah! That would be easy with the alarm relays built into the thing!"

I am doing HERMS and don't really need this, but my buddy is building RIMs and I will absolutely suggest this to him.

I suggest you test it first with a low setting for alarm1 and make sure it functions properly.

What I personally want is a float switch installed my HLT that will break the SSR control signal going from PID to SSR so that my element can't be fired when there is too little water in my tank (to prevent dry firing).

Click to expand...

I'm building a HERMS too - what are you going to use for a float switch?
I could get a job at the department of redundancy department. I'll install both! It never hurts to have more layers of "Can't eff this stuff up" in my rig. Especially since it's essentially free to implement.

SweetSounds said:

I'm building a HERMS too - what are you going to use for a float switch?

Click to expand...

I haven't really spent any time looking for one. I was just stating that it is a safety device that I would like to add to the system.

SweetSounds said:

I could get a job at the department of redundancy department. I'll install both! It never hurts to have more layers of "Can't eff this stuff up" in my rig. Especially since it's essentially free to implement.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I am thinking I could use the J1 pins as a back-up to make sure I don't overheat the mash. It's more about personal safety with the RIMS pipe bombs, but mash safety with the HERMS.

Walker said:

I am doing HERMS and don't really need this, but my buddy is building RIMs and I will absolutely suggest this to him.

Click to expand...

A flow switch on the RIMS output would be a good idea also. Something like this GEMS Flow Switch:



This one has a settable flow rate of 0.5 to 20 GPM. It could be used to interrupt the connection between the PID and SSR. I have one on the output of my RIMS so if flow is lost the element is shut off. You can find them on Ebay for about $30 to $40.

Could you put the flow meter before the heating element to trip the power? Just curious to any pros/cons

I changed the drawing to switch the positive SSR trigger line...



We need to add a DPDT relay to isolate the SSR trigger signal from the alarm signal to get the PID alarm to trigger the real alarm even when it's not trying to fire the SSR.
(Does that make sense?!? )

OK, this might not be the right thread for this question...but since it is the hot thread and you all are including these awesome easy to read diagrams, how does the wiring change if you are only using 120V service? From what I have seen I only need one SSR, so is the other one needed to trigger the alarm or for the other side of the 240V? Again, I know these questions might seem basic and really nothing to do with burning up a heater element, but I appreciate any help

SweetSounds said:

We need to add a DPDT relay to isolate the SSR trigger signal from the alarm signal to get the PID alarm to trigger the real alarm even when it's not trying to fire the SSR.
(Does that make sense?!? )

Click to expand...

If you want the alarm to come on when the temp is too high and just stay on (regardless of whether the PID is trying to fire the SSR), then you probably want to hook the alarm to the J2 pins. Use some DC source connected to pin13 and connect pin14 to your alarm.

Set alarm2 and alarm1 to the same settings.

This way you are not relying on voltage of the PID's SSR output to sound the alarm.

When you pass your set point for the alarm(s), the J1 relay will break the control signal to the SSR and the J2 relay will turn on your alarm.

BadgerBrewer said:

OK, this might not be the right thread for this question...but since it is the hot thread and you all are including these awesome easy to read diagrams, how does the wiring change if you are only using 120V service? From what I have seen I only need one SSR, so is the other one needed to trigger the alarm or for the other side of the 240V? Again, I know these questions might seem basic and really nothing to do with burning up a heater element, but I appreciate any help

Click to expand...

He shows two SSR's because he has chosed to put an SSR on both hots going to his element. That's a personal choice (I use 240V, but just one SSR).

Thanks Walker. My intent is to run 120V (I don't want to bring in an electrician to run 240 service to my garage yet) and use only one SSR. I suspect that will be okay right?

Yeah, that's fine.