Man, I love Apfelwein

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I had a little bit of sulphur using Notthingham, but nothing major at all (helped that it was in the basement). Really only seemed to be around for a day or two.
 
"Musy be a wine yeast thing." PLEASE ! Not all "wine yeasts" are the same. How would you feel if I said it "must be a beer yeast thing." ?

I'm into day 12 now. Still actively fermenting, but much slower now. No sulfur smells. No elephants in the room. I can't wait the try it !
 
I had a minor sulphur smell at about day 3 but it only lasted 1 day......then it got sweet smelling and now it is a little bit beer-ish smelling. I used "Red Star Montrachet wine yeast" I pitched 5 days ago
anthony
 
Ah yes, the smells of Apfelwein becoming liqued nectar. Soon, Grasshoppers, soon you will be enjoying

It's hard to beat a quick short glass of this after working in the garage to make room for the new (old) keg fridge.
 
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Since I am now at week 4 and getting really excited to keg this....

What pressure do you put on your kegs to condition? Do you force Carb?

What pressure do you serve at?
 
Here is my contribution to this thread. If any of the posters on page one of this thread can copy and paste this to the front, that'd be great for any newcomers.

Now, without any further ado, here's a summary of what's contained in the first 37 pages of this thread.



GENERAL QUESTIONS


How does it taste?
It ferments quite dry. Some people have tried different yeasts in order to achieve a sweeter taste. It may take you a few glasses to get a feel for the flavor. It is very reminiscent of a sort of apfelwein produced locally in Germany. There really is no comparable product in the United States. It's drier and less sweet than commercial hard ciders.

What is the difference between Apfelwein and hard cider?
EdWort says, “Most ciders are a bit sweeter. Ciders and Apfelwein are about 6% abv, but I like the little boost I give it with 2 pounds of Dextrose. It adds no body or flavor and still tastes like Possmann's Apfelwein, only it will kick your butt much quicker.”

Is this like Apfelmost / Apfel Korn?
No. Apfel Korn is a german liqeur made from wheat spirits. Apfelmost is spontaneously fermented with fresh-pressed apples or apple juice. It is probably similar, but the results may vary as a result of the spontaneous fermentation. Either way, Apfelmost is most certainly has a lower alcohol content since the initial gravity is not increased by the use of concentrate or corn sugar.

What’s the difference between apple juice and cider?
Cider is made by pressing apples. Juice is then filtered to remove all of the stuff that makes it cloudy.

Can I use apple cider instead?
Sure! You can use whatever you want. However, there is not enough information in this thread to give you any better details as to how it will turn out. I recommend starting a new thread or ask more experienced cider-makers.

What kind of Apple Juice should I use?
Ideally, you want to use 100% natural apple juice with no preservatives. The only acceptable preservative is ascorbic acid, which is a source of vitamin C and does not affect fermentation. Pasteurized juice is preferred, since it will have less bacteria.

How much will this recipe cost me?
5 gallons of Apfelwein can be made for between 20 and 25 dollars.

What else can you do with this recipe?

EdWort says, "this makes a great Grog in the winter time. Take a quart in a sauce pan, add some rum, turbinado sugar, and float a cinnamon stick in it and simmer for a while. Serve hot in mugs. It'll warm you right up."
 
Breaking it up into three sections because I'm bumping up against the 10,000 character limit.

THE RECIPE

What other adjuncts can be added?
The following have been tried: cinnamon, clove, vanilla, molasses, honey. Basically, anything that you might find in an apple pie. but go easy on the adjuncts. You need surprisingly little to get the flavor. Remember, whatever you add is going to be sitting in the fermenter for many weeks- plenty of time for the flavor to come out.

What other kinds of yeast can I use?
Ale yeasts, champagne yeasts, and wine yeasts have all been tried. They all tend to finish dry, though Nottingham seems to maybe impart some degree of sweetness. Using brown sugar may do the same. The only apparent way to significantly sweeten the apfelwein without additives is to stop the fermentation early by using Campden tablets. In addition to Montrachet, other yeasts that have been used include Nottingham Ale Yeast (the_bird described his result as “wine-like” and about as sweet as a youngish sweet red wine; also SilkkyBrew); Wyeast #1098 (spyk’d); Wyeast London Ale (Orfy); SafAle s-04 (ChillHayze); Lalvin K1-V1116 (MidRex).

Apparently, Nottingham imparts a little bit more sweetness, or perhaps it's the brown sugar that does it. smg8041 made two identical batches, one with montrachet, the other with Nottingham and brown sugar (as was done by ‘the_byrd’), and he had this to say: “Now, I just bottled both of mine. The "Ed's Original" recipe was a nice lite dry wine wine taste. Has a little fizz to it, but otherwise flat. It was nice after the first glass. Cold was better. The other one, ‘The_Bird’ recipe was definitely sweeter and was very much like a light cider. That I have primed and awaiting carbonation. Now I have one sweet and one dry, something for everyone.”

Furthermore, “Brewman !” contributed the following information:
Just a comment about using Montrachet yeast.

http://ebrew.com/wine/wine_yeast.htm

"It is not recommended for grapes that have been dusted with sulfur, because of a tendency to produce hydrogen sulfide in the presence of higher concentrations of sulfur compounds."

Potassium Metabisulphite is commonly used as a preservative to prevent cut apples from browning as they are processed.

The Lalvin EC-1118 is recommend for ciders.

"The fermentation characteristics of the EC strain - extremely low production of foam, volatile acid and H2S - make this strain an excellent choice. This strain ferments well over a very wide temperature range, from 45º to 95º and demonstrates high osmotic and alcohol tolerance. Good flocculation and compact lees and a relatively neutral flavor and aroma contribution are also properties of the EC strain.
The EC strain is recommended for all types of wines, including sparkling, and late harvest wines and cider. It may also be used to restart stuck fermentations."


Can you sweeten it?
You can use Splenda or Lactose to sweeten it. These are both nonfermentable sugars. You can add them to the juice at the beginning, or you can boil some water or apple juice to sanitize it and then mix the sweetener in after the fermentation is complete. EdWort used an unspecified amount of Splenda and reported that no one could tell it was artificial sweetener. EdWort has also suggesting cutting the apfelwein with 7up. Another option is to use brown sugar in place of the corn sugar.

What about just adding more corn sugar or apple juice concentrate after the fermentation is complete?
This can be done if you use Campden tablets. These tablets will kill off the yeast and prevent the concentrate or sugar from being fermented. This will also prevent you from bottle conditioning the apfelwein- so no carbonation (unless you use CO2). You cannot just add more concentrate or sugar if you intend to naturally carbonate in the bottles. Failing to use Campden tablets and adding more sugar may result in overly vigorous carbonation resulting in either “gushers” or “bottle bombs”.

Can I use table sugar? Brown Sugar? Honey? Molasses?
Table sugar is known to impart a “cidery” flavor to beers. This may not be a problem with apfelwein. Brown sugar is regular sugar with some molasses, which will also impart some slight sweetness. Honey generally takes a longer time for the flavor to peak, so expect to wait an extra month or two before it is completely at its best.

Can I use a yeast cake from a prior batch of beer?
Sure. It will ferment just fine, but you will be adding beer flavors to your apfelwein. So think twice before you decide to do it. Do you really want your apfelwein to have a beer taste to it?
 
MAKING YOUR APFELWEIN

How long does it take to make a batch?
After you have the ingedients, sanitizing your equipment may take 45 minutes. After that, you can just mix the sugar with the juice, pour it in the carboy, and pitch the yeast. The whole process shouldn't take more than an hour and a half for an absolute newb. Experienced people can probably have it done easily in under an hour. Then, just wait 4-6 weeks for the fermentation and clearing to take place and begin bottling or kegging.


What if I want to carbonate the EdWort’s Apfelwein?
You can use a CO2 system to carbonate it. Most folks say 10-12psi is adequate for both carbing and also for dispensing. If you are using Campden tablets and fermentable sweeteners (juice or corn sugar), then CO2 is the only way to carbonate the beverage. If you are not sweetening it, or if you are using non-fermentable sweeteners, then you can bottle condition it by adding 1/2 of a cup of priming sugar before bottling. You can also leave it uncarbonated and just combine it with Club Soda, 7Up, or Tonic Water to get some bubbles.

Do you need a secondary fermentation?
No. Since you are using juice, there really is no significant amount of trub. Secondary fermentation won't hurt anything, but it's not necessary.

Do I need to make a yeast starter?
No. Just rehydrate the yeast. In fact, since this recipe is so fast and easy, if you start rehydrating just before you begin making the apfelwein, the yeast will be ready to go by the time you are ready for it.

What temperature should it ferment at?
65-75 degrees. Warmer temperatures result in a more vigorous fermentation, but are thought to also result in a more intense sulfur-smell which seems to be particular to the Montrachet yeast. This smell goes away in 1-3 days.

What’s the deal with the sulfur smell?
The sulfur smell goes away in 1-3 days and nobody has noted any off flavors as a result. Apparently, this is no big deal and is normal for the recipe. However, “Brewman !” did a little research and had the following things to say
OK, I did some research and I don't think the sulfur generation is normal or desireable.

The source, as far as I can tell, could be wild yeasts in the juice starting to ferment or the production of H2S from a combination of factors, most likely the wrong yeast, lack of racking, etc.

I make fruit wines as well as beer. My textbook for fruit wines is this:
http://www.amazon.com/Winemaking-Rec...e=UTF8&s=books

I've never had an sulfur smell from any fruit wines that I've brewed.

As far as the wild yeasts go, on page 238, it states to add 80 to 100 ppm of sulfite to "kill wild yeasts prior to fermentation". I add sulphite crystals as directed to all the fruit wines I make.

One has to remember that fermenting wine musts is different than fermenting wort. Wort has just been boiled and it and the container is sterile. Fruits are exactly the opposite. They are simply washed and used. They are loaded with bacteria, organisms, etc. Never the less, I strongly suspect that the apple juice from the store is basically sterile.

I think the real problem is the fermentation conditions.

Page 267 says this:

"Hydrogen sulphide is created by wine yeast during fermentation and some strains such as Montrachet, produce more H2S than others. Generally the problem is not apparent until the secondary fermentation stage. During the secondary fermentation, the dead yeast cells build up in the sediment, and as they break down, their natural sulfur content is reduced to Hydrogen Sulphide. The heavier the deposit and the warmer the temperature - the greater the probability of hydrogen sulfide developing."

It goes on to say that if the smell stays in the wine for longer than a week, it changes to other substances and ruins the wine.

Treatment

aeration, adding sulfur dioxide, adding copper sulfate. According to them, these are only make shift actions.

Prevention

Use a different yeast. After INITIAL racking, don't leave the wine on the yeast more than 10 days. For these authors, initial fermentation is done when SG hits 1.020 or so and they rack to a secondary fermentor at that point.

They don't say it, but fermenting at a colder temperature will help as well.

All their apple wine recipes use a champagne yeast. (Bayanus Champagne.)

Do I need to aerate before pitching the yeast?
Not really. Since you aren’t boiling the juice, there should already be plenty of air in it.

What is it supposed to look like while fermenting?
After pitching the yeast, it will immediately turn cloudy. After about 24 hours, you should see a fraction of an inch of bubbles. They will start very tiny and grow larger until they are about the size of a quarter. After 2-3 days, they will disappear and there will only be occasional areas with small bubbles on the surface. It will be cloudy for the first 2-3 weeks and then the yeast will start to settle out and it will become very clear sometime around the 4th of 5th week.

What’s the starting and finishing gravity of this recipe?
It should be between 1.060 and 1.065, depending on how much sugar and concentrate you add. 1.062 seems to be a typical value. The Final gravity is usually between 0.990 and 0.995.

Will it age?
Yes. Probably for at least a year. Maybe longer. We’re not really sure.
 
rdwj said:
Well done Toot - you should get a job with Cliff notes

Thanks. I'd take a job with just about anyone who offered me one... so long as they weren't con-artists or whatever.

I'd bet I've read more about brewing than 80% of the people here... I love reading about this kind of stuff. I also love sampling beers and other spirits. If I do say so myself, I have a pretty awesome palate for tasting things and I'm definitely a "common sewer" of booze in all its forms. :) But, on the other hand, EdWort's ApfelWein is my first alcohol-making experience so I guess I am also an absolute newb too. I think have quite a bit to contribute, but I'm definitely weak on the "practical experience" side of things, so I just try to pitch in where I can, ya know?

You all have been very helpful to me already, and I expect more assistance from all of you in the future so I figure the least I can do is pitch in and help folks out when the opportunity presents itself. :)



Cheers!





Oh. I also want to say: After reading the "FAQ", you will definitely have some more questions. This isn't because I didn't answer them, but rather, because there are still some questions with the recipe. Yes, indeed, there are some aspects of this recipe which just haven't been fully examined. There are still question marks and uncharted ground to cover. So, by all means, feel free to experment! That's part of the fun. We are still assembling our database of flavors and whatnots. Everyone's Apfelwein is a bit different. No big deal. Hopefully the info I've provided will help people get a feel for what they want to try. However your apfelwein turns out, please post your impressions and results.
 
Whew! The sulphur smell has dissipated. Now it's a fermentaliciously sweet appley smell with some odours of fermentation.

And after doing all this work, I think I've decided. I'm going to do an experiment following in the shoes of the_byrd and smg. I'm going to leave a third uncarbed, a third primed with corn sugar, and a third primed with brown sugar. I may also do a third with natural maple syrup. Of course, that's a total of four-thirds, but that's ok when you've been drinking. :)
 
Bought the juice yesterday and will be going to the LHBS for the sugary goodness at lunch time - can't wait!

Wifes face was funny when I disappeared with the trolley in the shop to go and get some apple juice - forgot to tell her it was 25l of the stuff!
 
I made a 2L starter yesterday.

Rehydrated my Nottingham yeast, added about 250g of dextrose to the 2L of apple juice and pitched the yeast.

It clouded up right away, and had a small krausen within a few hours. I'll check on it tonight.

I hope to buy the rest of my apple juice & dextrose today and get this thing going.
 
JimiGibbs said:
Bottled mine yesterday after four and a half weeks.... Pretty tasty:ban: :ban: Can't wait for it to carbonate. Thanks Ed.

Thanks. I kegged my last carboy yesterday and put it in my new beer fridge in the garage. This batch was from 10-10-06 which makes it about 9 weeks old. I still have another keg and a half to go through, but the holidays are upon us, so I'll load up a couple more carboys when I get back in town later this week.

Enjoy!
 
Mainly because I was anxious to get it going, and I found a great 1 gallon jug at the inlaws place.

Only had 2L of juice, so I figured I'd make a starter for it. (I've never made a starter for any of my beer).
 
going to try and start this tonight. nice warm weather here just now so it would be fantastic to sit out on the desk with this.
 
anyone bottle this in wine bottles?

I would have bottled this already but I don't have enough bottles to do it. I have 2 batches including this one that need bottling. I think one is destined for the Party Pig.
 
Greetings all! :)

We've officially joined the Apfelwein bandwagon.

We bottled our first ever brew, a bock, last night so while we had all the stuff out, and sanitizer made up, we decided to start the Apfelwein last night.

We tweaked the recipe ever-so-slightly.

Five gallons of apple juice, 1.5 pounds of corn sugar and .5 pounds of dark brown sugar.

For the yeast we used a Wyeast Champagne yeast smack pack, which, I didn't smack hard enough apparently because the inner bag hadn't broken when I opened it (I've never used a smack pack before). So I sanitized a knife and punctured the inner pack, mixed it as best I could and poured it into the juice and sugar mixture.

No real vigorous fermentation yet, but I see a fairly steady stream of small bubbled making their way up the side of the carboy.

Can't wait to try this!

Thanks Ed, as well as everyone else who's made this and posted their tweaks, etc!
 
I was wondering if I should rack to a secondary, considering my recipe/situation/etc. I've never done that, but at the moment I have insufficient bottle caps, and I'm worried about autolysis.

quick review :
* 3 gallons cider, quick boil, cooled, pitched onto yeast cake from spiced pumpkin (really squash) ale
* 5 days later, added another 3 gallons cider + 1.5 lb sugar + 2 lbs honey (quick boil, cooled, added)
* active fermentation ended about 7-10 days ago
* I'm not going to be able to bottle it for at least another 2 weeks

Thoughts?
 
todd_k said:
anyone bottle this in wine bottles?

Here's what I use.

Apfelweinbottle.jpg


They hold 1 Liter each.
 
Might have screwed up here guys.

Yesterday when I grabbed the apple juice cartons to make my starter, I grabbed the wrong ones.

This is what I grabbed:

product_112628238254af10bc.jpg


...and this is what it says for ingredients:

Filtered water, apple juice and/or apple juice from concentrate (filtered water, concentrated apple juice), sugar/glucose-fructose, malic acid, natural flavour, colour, vitamin C.



Didn't realize it until today when I topped up with another 12L of the right stuff (pure) and 3 cups of dextrose.


Am I up **** creek?
 
Its an acid. I've used it in beer making. No biggie.

My fermentation is slowing down. Is anyone clarifying their apfelwein ? Anyone racking it to a secondary ? *chuckle... my inlaws are coming next week. I wonder if I should bother bottling or kegging it or if we should just drink it from the carboy ! I'm dying to taste it.
 
Toot said:
The only thing I see which might cause a problem is the malic acid. Any scientific folks want to tell me what the heck that is?
Malic acid is what make tart apples tart, nothing to worry about.:mug:
 
"Brewed" ours on Sunday, after we bottled our Bock, and today the airlock is busy.

Roughly 1 bubble per second, or second and a half and a steady stream of little bitty bubbles running up the sides of the carboy.

And it's already smelling like alcohol, ever so slightly. No sulphur smell yet. Cripes I can't wait to drink this stuff!

I love yeast and sugar! :D
 
What is the purpose of priming with DME? Seems to me that molasses, honey, table sugar, etc would all give you a more suitable flavor profile for an apfelwein... not that I've reached that stage yet...
 
Well, I just stuck my keg of Apfelwein in the kegerator last night. Today it's not quite cold, and only half carbonated, but damn it tastes good. I'm on my third glass as I type this, and I'm getting a little tipsy.
 
Toot said:
What is the purpose of priming with DME? Seems to me that molasses, honey, table sugar, etc would all give you a more suitable flavor profile for an apfelwein... not that I've reached that stage yet...

'cause that's what I stock in my brew cupboard for priming ale. DME is less fermentable than sugar so it'll add some sweetness to the cider, sugar will ferment out and add no sweetness.
 
alemonkey said:
Well, I just stuck my keg of Apfelwein in the kegerator last night. Today it's not quite cold, and only half carbonated, but damn it tastes good. I'm on my third glass as I type this, and I'm getting a little tipsy.

Congrats! Did you use my recipe or did you modify it? If so, how?

Enjoy!
 
Well, it's now been a FULL two weeks for my apfelwein. I'm still getting one bubble every ten seconds. Still cloudy.

I yelled at it to hurry its ass up. I don't think it did any good. :(
 
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