Boil Kettle Issue: BeerSmith Related

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BVilleggiante

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The back story:

A couple of weeks ago I had not yet calibrated my BeerSmtih software, to the point where I was having to add water at the end of the boil because my system profile was off. I finally got around to calibrating my system and redoing my system profile so that at the end of the boil, my wort level is right where it should be and I can begin chilling...or so I thought.

The problem:

I brew on a MoreBeer system that has 15 gallon kettles so I can brew 10 gallon batches. When I redid my system profile I did things very precisly so I know my numbers are correct. Here's the problem. In order for my end of boil level to be correct, I have to start my pre-boil level at 14.73 gallons. My kettles are only 15 gallons and so I'm right to the top. I tried boiling at the slowest rate possible and no luck. I have all kinds of boil over which not only screws up my expected gravity (tonight for instance I was trying to hit 1.067 and ended up with 1.061 because of how much wort boiled over i.e. sugar loss). The boil over also throws off my numbers to where I'm still below where I should be on my post boil wort levels. My question is, what the hell do I do now? My initial thoughts...

1) Buy a bigger boil kettle ($$$)

2) Only transfer part of my wort to the boil kettle in the beginning and the rest to another pot. Start the boil and as my wort begins to boil off, add the wort I transfered to another pot slowly back in.

Please help!
 
If I understood correctly your main problem is boil over.
There are several ways to prevent it:
- add few coins in brew kettle, they will brake bubbles forming on bottom
- use sprayer and spray often at the beginning
- Antifoam can also help (although if needed I use it only for starters)

As for 1.057, I am not familiar w/Morebeer kettles but it may mean that this is maximum OG that can be brewed with full volume capacity and some standard efficiency.
 
maybe I misread, and the only article I can find is regarding the Braumeister system, which has a maximum OG limit of 1.057

14.75 gallons pre-boil for a 10-gallon batch? what is your boil-off rate and boil time? even the default Keggle profile will put you at 13.44 gallon boil.

what do you have for batch volume?

as far as I can tell, in the Equipment Profile, the following variables effect what the program calculates for Boil Volume:
Loss to Trub
Batch Volume
Boil Time
Boil Off
Cooling Shrinkage
Top Up Water (to FERMENTER, NOT KETTLE)
Batch Volume

and I think these can be overridden per batch from the recipe design page, edit equipment button.

maybe you have a bad number in there somewhere.

all else fails, uncheck the box next to Calculate Boil Vol Automatically and put in a more realistic number
 
The back story:

A couple of weeks ago I had not yet calibrated my BeerSmtih software, to the point where I was having to add water at the end of the boil because my system profile was off. I finally got around to calibrating my system and redoing my system profile so that at the end of the boil, my wort level is right where it should be and I can begin chilling...or so I thought.

The problem:

I brew on a MoreBeer system that has 15 gallon kettles so I can brew 10 gallon batches. When I redid my system profile I did things very precisly so I know my numbers are correct. Here's the problem. In order for my end of boil level to be correct, I have to start my pre-boil level at 14.73 gallons. My kettles are only 15 gallons and so I'm right to the top. I tried boiling at the slowest rate possible and no luck. I have all kinds of boil over which not only screws up my expected gravity (tonight for instance I was trying to hit 1.067 and ended up with 1.061 because of how much wort boiled over i.e. sugar loss). The boil over also throws off my numbers to where I'm still below where I should be on my post boil wort levels. My question is, what the hell do I do now? My initial thoughts...

1) Buy a bigger boil kettle ($$$)

2) Only transfer part of my wort to the boil kettle in the beginning and the rest to another pot. Start the boil and as my wort begins to boil off, add the wort I transfered to another pot slowly back in.

Please help!

I'd go with #2 but I'd try to be heating the leftover wort so it doesn't stop the boil on your main system when you add it. It would be nice to have it right at the boiling point when added.
 
Boil off rate is high at 3 gallons per hour. I know that seems like a lot, and it is, but it's correct. This is for a 10 gallon batch.

maybe I misread, and the only article I can find is regarding the Braumeister system, which has a maximum OG limit of 1.057

14.75 gallons pre-boil for a 10-gallon batch? what is your boil-off rate and boil time? even the default Keggle profile will put you at 13.44 gallon boil.

what do you have for batch volume?

as far as I can tell, in the Equipment Profile, the following variables effect what the program calculates for Boil Volume:
Loss to Trub
Batch Volume
Boil Time
Boil Off
Cooling Shrinkage
Top Up Water (to FERMENTER, NOT KETTLE)
Batch Volume

and I think these can be overridden per batch from the recipe design page, edit equipment button.

maybe you have a bad number in there somewhere.

all else fails, uncheck the box next to Calculate Boil Vol Automatically and put in a more realistic number
 
I think the issue with your boil off rate comes from how wide those kettles are, more surface area for the water to evaporate from. I would make sure to boil with just enough heat to keep a boil and no more. You could also adjust your boil off rate in beersmith to say 2 gallons an hour and just add 1 gallon of water during the boil, maybe halfway in. This way you avoid the boil over problem, you won't lose any of the sugars and your still able to hit your final volume needed for your batch size.
 
Boil off rate is high at 3 gallons per hour. I know that seems like a lot, and it is, but it's correct. This is for a 10 gallon batch.

How do you know the boil-off rate is correct? I'm not saying it isn't, but it looks very high to me.

Could it be that you measured the boil off rate with a small sample, and then entered it as a % value? If so, then when you brew with the full volume, Beersmith will calculate your boil off incorrectly as the volume on which the % is based will be different. If you enter the boil off rate as gallons per hour, this should be pretty accurate.

-a.
 
It is indeed entered as gallons per hour in BeerSmith. I did two tests for the boil off rate simply measuring and both came out the same.
 
I use a 15 Gallon Bayou Classic that I converted into a kettle. At most, and with an aggressive boil, I might lose 1.1gallons per hour and 1 gallons to trub and chiller. That still puts my boil at 12.X gallons.

I would make sure the measurements are consistent (pre-boil vs. post-boil measured at same temp) and you aren't accounting for trub-loss in the boil.
 
I am indeed accounting for trub loss, but that calculation is in another part of the BeerSmith Equipment profile separate from boil off. My trub loss is somewhere around .92 gallons.
 
yes, they're separate, but all the values under "Fermenter/Bottling Volumes" DO EFFECT what the Boil Volume will be, if "Calculate Boil Vol Automatically" is checked
Loss to Trub and Chiller
Top Up Water
Batch Volume
Fermenter Loss
 
I've decided on Thursday I'm going to do a third test to measure my boil off rate and see just how low I can get my burner while still being able to boil. I'll give an update once I have the numbers. Hoping I can drop it from 3 gallons an hour to somewhere around 1.2.
 
Float a large stainless steel bowl in your kettle while boiling....allows steam (and therefore DMS precursors) to escape but greatly reduces the boil-off rate. ;)
 
thughes said:
Float a large stainless steel bowl in your kettle while boiling....allows steam (and therefore DMS precursors) to escape but greatly reduces the boil-off rate. ;)
If at the end you find out your numbers are correct, you could just scale down the batch size a bit to give you some room. But, 3 gallons seems like you have a excessive amount of BTU under the kettle.

Edit: found this formula for kettle evap (r² X 3.14)/150. Is your kettle the Heavy duty kettle at MB that's 18" dia x 14" high? If I plug that in your evap rate should be around 1.69 don't know if that helps
 
Alright, I did another test tonight, this time turning down my boil kettle burner as much as possible while still being able to maintain a boil. I got the boil off rate down from 3 to 2.19 gallons per hour. While that's better I still need it lower, so here's my thought. One of my kettle lids has two notches cut out of it ,one for my recirculating coil (Herms System) and one for a float valve. All in all both notches are about 1 inch in length and 1/2 inch in width each. My question is, can I put this lid on during the boil thus allowing steam to escape at a slower rate through only these notches? Or is this not a good idea as the lid should be completely off to allow for DMS to escape?
 
Forgive my ignorance but why go through all the complication? Top up with pre boiled filtered water, and save alot of math headache and p.i.t.a
 
The back story:

A couple of weeks ago I had not yet calibrated my BeerSmtih software, to the point where I was having to add water at the end of the boil because my system profile was off. I finally got around to calibrating my system and redoing my system profile so that at the end of the boil, my wort level is right where it should be and I can begin chilling...or so I thought.

The problem:

I brew on a MoreBeer system that has 15 gallon kettles so I can brew 10 gallon batches. When I redid my system profile I did things very precisly so I know my numbers are correct. Here's the problem. In order for my end of boil level to be correct, I have to start my pre-boil level at 14.73 gallons. My kettles are only 15 gallons and so I'm right to the top. I tried boiling at the slowest rate possible and no luck. I have all kinds of boil over which not only screws up my expected gravity (tonight for instance I was trying to hit 1.067 and ended up with 1.061 because of how much wort boiled over i.e. sugar loss). The boil over also throws off my numbers to where I'm still below where I should be on my post boil wort levels. My question is, what the hell do I do now? My initial thoughts...

1) Buy a bigger boil kettle ($$$)

2) Only transfer part of my wort to the boil kettle in the beginning and the rest to another pot. Start the boil and as my wort begins to boil off, add the wort I transfered to another pot slowly back in.

Please help!

3) Make 9 gallon brews. More room in kettle or maybe 9.5 gallons.
 
I have read that although the norm is keggles for people doing ten gallon batches, a 20 gallon pot is recommended for the boil kettle. Look at the blichmann site for boilermakers and what size pots for each brew size. For ten gallons they recommend 15/15/20. hlt/mash/boil. 15 will work if you make some adjustments but to answer your original question, a bigger pot would be the real fix.
 
I thought I had a high boil off rate at 1.9 GPH. Only things I can think of is....did you adjust air dampener on burners to get a clean lower flame ?
and are you letting it cool before taking second measurement? I think Beer smith has a 4% shrinkage factor.
Also .92 is allot of trub. That's almost a gallon right there you could lower the amount in your kettle by. If most of that is hops maybe try a hop spider, It's one of the best things I've added.
 
Alright, I did another test tonight, this time turning down my boil kettle burner as much as possible while still being able to maintain a boil. I got the boil off rate down from 3 to 2.19 gallons per hour. While that's better I still need it lower, so here's my thought. One of my kettle lids has two notches cut out of it ,one for my recirculating coil (Herms System) and one for a float valve. All in all both notches are about 1 inch in length and 1/2 inch in width each. My question is, can I put this lid on during the boil thus allowing steam to escape at a slower rate through only these notches? Or is this not a good idea as the lid should be completely off to allow for DMS to escape?

What I've been reading about DMS is that you want enough opening to let it escape and if you have too much covered the steam carrying it away will condense on the lid and allow it to drip back into the pot. You might avoid this by insulating the lid so it remained hot enough to not condense the steam. I would try this once with something like a bath towel folded over the lid in such a way as to leave the openings uncovered and see how it affects your boil off and if you get condensation on the lid. Give it enough time of boiling so the lid can get hot as it is likely to condense at the start.
 
I really appreciate everyone's responses on this. After doing some more research and thinking about what to do next, I've decided I'm simply going to try using a spray bottle during the initial stage of the boil to prevent boil over. I figure if I can get past the initial 10 minutes I'll be fine. I've just watched a video of a guy doing this on Youtube and it seemed to work really well. I really want to keep my batches at 10 gallons, but if this doesn't work I'll reduce them to 9.

Again, thank you everyone.
 
I really appreciate everyone's responses on this. After doing some more research and thinking about what to do next, I've decided I'm simply going to try using a spray bottle during the initial stage of the boil to prevent boil over.

You have 14.7 gallons of liquid in a 15 gallon vessel. In my opinion the spray bottle alone will not work with this volume of liquid because it's not just the hot break boil over issue that you're having, but the thermal expansion of the wort itself when its at ~boiling temperatures particularly before you've boiled any off--or in your case boiled any over. You kind of answered your own question in your original post. Instead of squirt guns and prayers, you either need to just do split boil batches (which I hate because it's a pain to calculate hop utilization, but mainly because its difficult to monitor your OG during the boil), or best case scenario just buy a bigger kettle. As my auto shop teacher preached in high school: "right tool for the job."

Also, I wouldn't put a lid anywhere near your boil kettle when the wort is over 180 degrees. ESPECIALLY early in the boil. You don't have to be boiling in order to drive off DMS.
 
On the previous page I mentioned I got my boil off rate down. I'm now at 13.92 gallons in a 15 gallon kettle. Hoping this is enough room otherwise ill be buying a bigger kettle. Thoughts?

You have 14.7 gallons of liquid in a 15 gallon vessel. In my opinion the spray bottle alone will not work with this volume of liquid because it's not just the hot break boil over issue that you're having, but the thermal expansion of the wort itself when its at ~boiling temperatures particularly before you've boiled any off--or in your case boiled any over. You kind of answered your own question in your original post. Instead of squirt guns and prayers, you either need to just do split boil batches (which I hate because it's a pain to calculate hop utilization, but mainly because its difficult to monitor your OG during the boil), or best case scenario just buy a bigger kettle. As my auto shop teacher preached in high school: "right tool for the job."

Also, I wouldn't put a lid anywhere near your boil kettle when the wort is over 180 degrees. ESPECIALLY early in the boil. You don't have to be boiling in order to drive off DMS.
 
BVilleggiante said:
On the previous page I mentioned I got my boil off rate down. I'm now at 13.92 gallons in a 15 gallon kettle. Hoping this is enough room otherwise ill be buying a bigger kettle. Thoughts?

Maybe just me but one gallon of space is still a disaster in the making!
 
BVilleggiante said:
I'll be finding out soon...hopefully don't have to fork out for a big time expensive kettle :(

Bro, you have Beersmith! Just scale it down! Or as previously mentioned.. Top up!! ...or maybe you want to buy a bigger kettle! Lol
 
I'll be finding out soon...hopefully don't have to fork out for a big time expensive kettle :(

I would really love to see this setup in action. I do full 10 gallon AG boils in my 15 gallon Bayou Classic and have never gone over 12-12.5 gallons for a single batch. I'm not saying you are doing anything wrong, quite the contrary, every system is different, and there might lie the issue. That system may be the wrong setup for what you are trying to accomplish.

I hope the reduced boil amount works for you. Everyone deserves to have painless brew days.
 
So I think I just found some more space I can save. BeerSmith had my cooling evaporation rate set at 4% which is a half gallon. I have a plate chiller which chills my wort down to 70 in about 15 minutes so there is now way I'm loosing a half gallon in that time. I just set the chilling evaporation rate to 0% since it will most likely be such a tiny amount if any.
 
I've attached a link to the setup I have here:

http://morebeer.com/view_product/8920//New_2100_BrewSculpture

The problem I believe is that these kettles are wider than any kettle I've ever seen before thus allowing for more surface area and thus more boil off and a greater volume left at the bottom of the kettles after transfering. If they were narrower and taller it wouldn't be so extreme.

I would really love to see this setup in action. I do full 10 gallon AG boils in my 15 gallon Bayou Classic and have never gone over 12-12.5 gallons for a single batch. I'm not saying you are doing anything wrong, quite the contrary, every system is different, and there might lie the issue. That system may be the wrong setup for what you are trying to accomplish.

I hope the reduced boil amount works for you. Everyone deserves to have painless brew days.
 
So I think I just found some more space I can save. BeerSmith had my cooling evaporation rate set at 4% which is a half gallon. I have a plate chiller which chills my wort down to 70 in about 15 minutes so there is now way I'm loosing a half gallon in that time. I just set the chilling evaporation rate to 0% since it will most likely be such a tiny amount if any.

The cooling loss isn't evaporation, it's a function of temperature (liquid expands at higher temp). Chilling from boiling to room temp gives about 4% contraction of volume.

The problem I believe is that these kettles are wider than any kettle I've ever seen before thus allowing for more surface area and thus more boil off and a greater volume left at the bottom of the kettles after transfering. If they were narrower and taller it wouldn't be so extreme.

Those kettles are quite wide for the volume. I have that same sculpture with 15 gal mash tun and HLT but I got it without the boil kettle and went with a 20g Boilermaker to avoid these issues. The diameters are the same - the MB lids fit exactly on my kettle - and I get 1.7 gal/hr loss confirmed over time. Pretty much just what divrguy posted it should be according to his calculation.

I can't imagine babysitting a 14g boil in that kettle. Because it's so wide a gallon is less than an inch from the top (.95 inches according to the manual).
 
That's what my preboil is as well. I ended up making my 15 gallon boil kettle from Morebeer my HLT and getting a 20 G boil kettle (from homebrewstuff.com---same kettle, but with weldless fittings). I think my boil off is about 12%. The 14.x gallong preboil gets me 11 gallons post boil, and about 10 gallons plus a little below the dip tube going into two kegs. I was able to do it in the 15 gallon kettle, but it was a lot of babysitting. It kind of still is, but I can now do those bopils batches with 2 hour boils and even higher preboil volumes.
 
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