Necessary to clean as well as sterilize? (Star San related)

This may be a really silly question, but...

I've just got my hands on some Star San for the first time. In all the posts I've read on here which talk about Star San, no one seems to be talking about using a cleaning solution first.

So long as there's no visible dirt on my gear / bottles, is it ok to just use Star San?

I've also got some cleaning-solution-powder, from my local brewstore, made of "chlorine and cleaning soda". Should I be using this before the Star San?

Any help greatly appreciated!

You are right, you want it free of visible dirt, organic matter, etc. For some things that can be as simple as a hot water rinse after using but for stuff that has a lot of gunk on it, you will need to use a cleaner.

First things first, you always CLEAN before you SANITIZE. A lot of us use OxiClean Free for cleaning, it's cheap and works great with no brushing! I do an Oxi Soak on all my stuff overnight just to make sure it's clean, followed by a good rinse, then I Star-San everything and drain. Bottle/Rack while the surfaces are still wet with Star-San.

Next, Sterilization is different than Sanitizing. We Sanitize in brewing, Sterilization requires specialized equipment with temps around 270F if I recall correctly for a certain period of time. Not trying to beat you up about it, just trying to pass on the proper info.

"chlorine and cleaning soda"

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I wouldn't use a chlorine-based cleaner. It can be a pain to rinse all of the chlorine off, as it takes very little to mess up the flavor of your beer. I use chlorine occasionally to bleach plastic items, but rinse, rinse, rinse.

Effective cleaning agents are also sanitizers although they may not be rated as such. The problem is that most require rinsing and the rinse water can sometimes contaminate the equipment. This is the reason that no-rinse sanitizers are used after cleaning. It's also good practice to use a sanitizer immediately before using the equipment. This may or may not be necessary, but it's certainly can do no harm. Star San is very economical to use and I use it liberally.

Basically we're always making the assumption that the gear is already clean. You cannot sanitize something that isn't clean to start with (the organic residues will harbor all sorts of nasties, as well as be a possible food source for the nasties to grow).

wyzazz said:

First things first, you always CLEAN before you SANITIZE. A lot of us use OxiClean Free for cleaning, it's cheap and works great with no brushing! I do an Oxi Soak on all my stuff overnight just to make sure it's clean, followed by a good rinse, then I Star-San everything and drain. Bottle/Rack while the surfaces are still wet with Star-San.

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+1
I often leave a fermenter sitting on the sidewalk overnight soaking with some oxiclean, then rinse it well, and put it away. give it a quick rinse incase it picked up some dust, sanitize, and use.

I rarely clean, I give everything a very thorough rinse after use and make sure there is no visible dirt. Then I usually rinse with hot water again before sanitizing.

I have been using Idophor to sanitize, I have yet to have sanitation issues.

malkore said:

Basically we're always making the assumption that the gear is already clean. You cannot sanitize something that isn't clean to start with (the organic residues will harbor all sorts of nasties, as well as be a possible food source for the nasties to grow).

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If it's "clean to the eye" meaning free for visible dirt (i.e. rinsed off but no oxyclean etc.) why can you not sanitize? The "nasties" will all be killed by the sanitizer.

I personally take my equipment from the garage or basement which may have built up a nice layer of dust and give it a good rinse with warm water. Sanitize if need be (being used during\post boil) and have never had any issues. *knocks on wood*

So I say no, it is not necessary. Good practice to clean well before sanitizing? Hellz yeah! I just hate cleaning so try and skip corners

I agree with 'clean first'. You could just clean and not sanitize and probably get away with that for a while too. Many times a beer will be contaminated just to the point that it only tastes a little 'off' but is fine otherwise. So imo, take the "I do this and never had a problem" accounts with a grain of salt (you'll see these over and over).

If you have hard water you may prefer PBW (5-star, same company as Star-San) over Oxiclean Free. The PBW rinses significantly better/easier than Oxiclean with hard water. PBW costs way more. But you can reuse it. I always save old PBW solution because I always have a gunked up fermenter or flask coming up in the pipeline. So I use fresh, hot PBW for kegs and carboy 'final cleaning' and use old stuff for soaking carboys/blow-off tubes to get the gunk off. PBW gets bottle labels off pretty well too.

FWIW, sometimes something will appear to be free of dirt/gunk but will have a thin film of oil/grease on it (not likely with brewing stuff but you never know with new/used equipment, especially kegs). A good way to see this is on glass/stainless to run water over the surface and look for a 'break-free' surface. The water should just run off like a sheet. If it 'beads', you have non-volatile residue (i.e. oil/grease film). Water will usually bead on plastic anyway so not a good test for plastic.

SOB said:

If it's "clean to the eye" meaning free for visible dirt (i.e. rinsed off but no oxyclean etc.) why can you not sanitize? The "nasties" will all be killed by the sanitizer.

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but it doesn't work like that. sanitizer kills microorganisms it can get to. if you have particles of hops stuck on the equipment, the star-san cannot get underneath the particles, so that area could well be contaminated.

hot water cleaning IS cleaning...you don't have to use a cleanser to clean...it can help but its not always required.

Clean after use, sanitize before use.

malkore said:

but it doesn't work like that. sanitizer kills microorganisms it can get to. if you have particles of hops stuck on the equipment, the star-san cannot get underneath the particles, so that area could well be contaminated.

hot water cleaning IS cleaning...you don't have to use a cleanser to clean...it can help but its not always required.

Clean after use, sanitize before use.

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So I guess I do clean it, just rarely use cleanser. If there is something gunky I will use Oxy Clean usually, I have a bunch of old keg and man they can get gross. A good soak, a good shake and sometimes someone with a small arm to get to the bottom and they are sparkling clean.

I usually soak everything on generic (safeway brand) oxi-clean and then rinse it again after use. Before using it again I rinse it and then soak it in starsan. No rinse after star san.

malkore said:

but it doesn't work like that. sanitizer kills microorganisms it can get to. if you have particles of hops stuck on the equipment, the star-san cannot get underneath the particles, so that area could well be contaminated.

hot water cleaning IS cleaning...you don't have to use a cleanser to clean...it can help but its not always required.

Clean after use, sanitize before use.

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Clean to the eye means no "particles of hops stuck on the equipment" so basically the sanitizer can get to all the microorganisms.

Now that I think about it I guess you are correct saying "hot water is cleaning." I always thought of that as rinsing to get visual dust, debris and particles off and assumed cleaning meant using a cleanser whether it's soap, Oxy, etc and wiping or scrubbing the surface you are trying to clean.

SOB said:

Clean to the eye means no "particles of hops stuck on the equipment" so basically the sanitizer can get to all the microorganisms.

Now that I think about it I guess you are correct saying "hot water is cleaning." I always thought of that as rinsing to get visual dust, debris and particles off and assumed cleaning meant using a cleanser whether it's soap, Oxy, etc and wiping or scrubbing the surface you are trying to clean.

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Now, I am not sure about the rest of you, bu tI have ALWAYS been told NEVER use soap on any plastic parts that may contact your brew. Some will even swear not to let it touch glass either, I know I never let it touch my drinking glasses.

For anything that touches the beer between chilling the wort and drinking the beer, I ALWAYS use PBW then SS. I'm skeptical about 'clean to the eye' as well. I don't assume clean to the eye is clean enough for the sanitizer to be effective. The stuff we're trying to kill are microns in size, you can't see them, so I don't assume a visual inspection is sufficient.

billc68 said:

Now, I am not sure about the rest of you, bu tI have ALWAYS been told NEVER use soap on any plastic parts that may contact your brew. Some will even swear not to let it touch glass either, I know I never let it touch my drinking glasses.

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I was always told not to use soap on aluminum because it breaks down the oxygen barrier but never heard anything about plastic...

JKoravos said:

For anything that touches the beer between chilling the wort and drinking the beer, I ALWAYS use PBW then SS. I'm skeptical about 'clean to the eye' as well. I don't assume clean to the eye is clean enough for the sanitizer to be effective. The stuff we're trying to kill are microns in size, you can't see them, so I don't assume a visual inspection is sufficient.

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I thought that's what the sanitizer is for? A sanitizer should be able to kill anything a cleanser can plus more...right? So if you cant visually see any "debris" then the sanitizer can get into all the nooks and crannies and kill the lil buggers. Maybe I'm missing the point here...

SOB,
Why do you think it's common advice to not scratch the inside of a plastic fermenter/bottling bucket and if you do get a bunch of scratches to get a new one?

Because you often can't sanitize those scratches no matter how much sanitizer you use (due to the sanitizer never even contacting the deep cracks/crevices/etc).

I understand that...I didnt know we were only talking plastic here. With those scratches you also cant get in the crevices to clean it then, can you?

SOB said:

I understand that...I didnt know we were only talking plastic here. With those scratches you also cant get in the crevices to clean it then, can you?

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No, of course not. The point being, dirt/gunk/etc has tiny cracks/crevices that the sanitizer can't get to.

So...the sanitizer cant reach areas that a cleanser can?

From Palmer's How to Brew:

"The definition and objective of sanitization is to reduce bacteria and contaminants to insignificant or manageable levels. The terms clean, sanitize and sterilize are often used interchangeably, but should not be. Items may be clean but not sanitized or vice versa. Here are the definitions:

* Clean - To be free from dirt, stain, or foreign matter.
* Sanitize - To kill/reduce spoiling microorganisms to negligible levels.
* Sterilize - To eliminate all forms of life, especially microorganisms, either by chemical or physical means.

Cleaning is the process of removing all the dirt and grime from a surface, thereby removing all the sites that can harbor bacteria. Cleaning is usually done with a detergent and elbow grease. None of the sanitizing agents used by homebrewers are capable of eliminating all bacterial spores and viruses. The majority of chemical agents homebrewers use will clean and sanitize but not sterilize. However, sterilization is not necessary. Instead of worrying about sterilization, homebrewers can be satisfied if they consistently reduce these contaminants to negligible levels.

All sanitizers are meant to be used on clean surfaces. A sanitizer's ability to kill microorganisms is reduced by the presence of dirt, grime or organic material. Organic deposits can harbor bacteria and shield the surface from being reached by the sanitizer. So it is up to you to make sure the surface of the item to be sanitized is as clean as possible."

http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter2-2.html

Clears some things up for me...

Detergent doesn't really kill anything. It is, however, great at removing almost everything.

Sanitizer is killing most of what is left, leaving a pretty damn clean surface.

If you don't use a detergent, your surface is going to be covered with massive amounts of microscopic particles whether you see visible dirt or not. If you only use sanitizer you are rolling the dice on whether or not it can kill enough crap. Correct me if I'm wrong, but from everything I've heard, this is what is going on.

Bleach can be used as both a cleaner and sanitizer.

Just saying

wyzazz said:

A lot of us use OxiClean Free for cleaning...

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...except for aluminum.

billc68 said:

Bleach can be used as both a cleaner and sanitizer.

Just saying

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Despite what people think, it is not much better than hot water as a "cleaner"...but hot water is a good cleaner.

After I pour a beer, I immediately triple rinse it in hot water and set it upside down in the Fast Rack. When I bottle, I rinse again and soak in StarSan and bottle.

Five star technical data sheet for Star San states rinsing with potable water before using equipment. That to me would means or suggest using a sterilizer on equipment before use. The "no rinse" only means no rinse before putting equipment away for storage, it doesn't mean that equipment is now ready to use without additional step.

mash-mongrel said:

Five star technical data sheet for Star San states rinsing with potable water before using equipment. That to me would means or suggest using a sterilizer on equipment before use. The "no rinse" only means no rinse before putting equipment away for storage, it doesn't mean that equipment is now ready to use without additional step.

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This document directly contradicts your statement.

http://www.fivestarchemicals.com/wp-content/uploads/StarSanTech-HB2.pdf

GHBWNY said:

After I pour a beer, I immediately triple rinse it in hot water and set it upside down in the Fast Rack. When I bottle, I rinse again and soak in StarSan and bottle.

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I'm so new to brewing I haven't even bottled yet. Maybe this weekend on my first batch.

Anyway, I've been partial to Sam Adams lately so I can harvest the bottles. What I do with them is triple-rinse, then we put them in the dishwasher. Then stored until use.

My intent before bottling is to take all those bottles and sanitize them with Star-San before filling. So I'm thinking that between the rinsing, the dishwasher, the Star-San--I should be ok.

Any reason why I should do anything differently?

mongoose33 said:

I'm so new to brewing I haven't even bottled yet. Maybe this weekend on my first batch.

Anyway, I've been partial to Sam Adams lately so I can harvest the bottles. What I do with them is triple-rinse, then we put them in the dishwasher. Then stored until use.

My intent before bottling is to take all those bottles and sanitize them with Star-San before filling. So I'm thinking that between the rinsing, the dishwasher, the Star-San--I should be ok.

Any reason why I should do anything differently?

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I reuse all my hb bottles multiple batches. I'll just rinse in real hot water until the bottom of the bottle is crystal clear, dry on my bottle tree and then come bottling day I just dunk in starsan and bottle. Never had an issue of any kind yet.

DarkStarNJ said:

This document directly contradicts your statement.



http://www.fivestarchemicals.com/wp-content/uploads/StarSanTech-HB2.pdf

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Darkstar interesting. The bottom of the document has a revised date of 06/03.

My link is dated 07/03 after yours. Are we talking about the same product here?

http://www.fivestarchemicals.com/wp-content/uploads/Star-San-HB4.pdf

mash-mongrel said:

Darkstar interesting. The bottom of the document has a revised date of 06/03.

My link is dated 07/03 after yours. Are we talking about the same product here?

http://www.fivestarchemicals.com/wp-content/uploads/Star-San-HB4.pdf

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It appears to be the chemical make-up but potentially different dilution. The dilution rates to it are different and the name of the product is different.

I can assure you, the majority of us that use Star San, do not rinse.

Here is a thread on the "HB" verses original formula.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=113446

I clean with a sponge and water with starsan in it. I then rinse with water then sanitize with star san (fresh bucket of star san or spray bottle w/star san). In thise case, Star San is my cleaner and sanitizer. I have been doing this for years without an issue.

I clean with a sponge and water with starsan in it. I then rinse with water then sanitize with star san (fresh bucket of star san or spray bottle w/star san). In thise case, Star San is my cleaner and sanitizer. I have been doing this for years without an issue.

I clean with a sponge and water with starsan in it. I then rinse with water then sanitize with star san (fresh bucket of star san or spray bottle w/star san). In thise case, Star San is my cleaner and sanitizer. I have been doing this for years without an issue.

SOB said:

So...the sanitizer cant reach areas that a cleanser can?

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Not so much as sani can't reach areas the cleanser can, but that it can only reach areas that have been made avail by cleanser.

Picture a dirty crud covered spoon... dipping that spoon in sani will only sanitize the outside parts it can touch. If there was bacterial in-between the spoon and the crud it may survive.

You want to clean first, to expose the surfaces for sani to be more effective. The sani may work well enough if you don't clean, but it def won't work as well as if you had cleaned.

Brewmegoodbeer said:

I clean with a sponge and water with starsan in it.

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Nice reply to an 8 year old thread!

You might as well just clean with water, and save the starsan. Starsan's not a cleaner (it won't hurt, but won't help either). FWIW, I always clean immediately with hot water and a sponge or brush (no cleaning solution) then rinse with hot water and sanitise with starsan before use. I have also never had an issue.

In over 5 years of brewing I only had one infection and I knew exactly what it was from (not my apparently lazy cleaning practices)

I do the same as Gnomebrewer..
I clean my conical fermenters with hot water and a sponge immediately after use If I have time I clean the valves and tc fitting too, otherwise I'll pour some starsan in the conical and splash it around and leav the tc fittings and valves submerged internally with it until I do get to cleaning them with hot water right before sanitizing again with starsan before use. I rinse my hoses with water after use and they get sanitized with boiling wort.

Everyone is entitled to do what ever they feel most comfortable with but I just wanted to point out that infections are no where near as common as some fear and I was lead to believe when I started brewing. I also cant believe the amount of brewers that still think theres some sort of benefit to disassembling and sanitizing the hot side? I think some of those folks need to go on some real brewery tours.

For bottling, I put them in my dishwasher which has a sanitize mode, no detergent. Let it run the night before bottling, and leave the door shut until it's time to bottle. Starsan the bottles and fill.