Can't I cool wort by adding cold water?

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linusstick

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Since I'm doing extract brewing and adding water to the fermenter can't I just add cold water while the wort is still hot to get it to pitching temperature? Why cool it first, THEN add the water?
 
Many do, you should probably boil and chill it first vs coming from the tap.

You will probably find that you needed to do some chilling as well, and that it best done with the small prewater add volume. Ice bath for a bit, then addition of chilled water works well.

I actually boil, put the water into clean ziplock bags and freeze them the night before brewing. Ice cools better than water.
 
While I was brewing extract, I would sanitize containers, put filtered water into them, and freeze them... Just put some of those into the wort post boil to start getting the temps down. Another item that works is to use water bottles (the plastic ones) and simply fill them with filtered water (not too far though) and partially freeze them. An hour or two is all you need to get a good slush in them which also helps reduce the wort temp.

Depending on your pot size, you can also try a cold water, and ice bath in the kitchen sink... Once you get it closer to pitching temp, usually topping off with cold water (from the fridge if your tap water isn't cold enough) finishes the job...

Once you get a wort chiller, though, the issue goes away...
 
I put a couple of gallon jugs of water in the fridge whenI start brewing. When I am done with the boil I put the pot in an ice bath in the sink to cool it to about 85. Pour it into the fermenter top off with a couple of gallons of the water from the fridge. It gets about 68 degrees.
 
I have used ice baths to get wort to <100F and then just added 60F tap water straight from the faucet for my last half dozen or so extract batches. The faucet aerator does a good job helping aerate the wort, and once I'm done it's usually 5gal around 70F.

Maybe I should boil it to remove the chlorine or other chemicals, but I haven't had any issues with infection. Soon I'll be using a 0.5 micron filter for all the water, a full boil and a 50' counterflow chiller so I'm not going to be dealing with the issue much longer.

I just throw caution to the wind until it bites me in the ass, though.
 
Golddiggie said:
Once you get a wort chiller, though, the issue goes away...

Why even hassle with the ice bath? It is a pain, spend $30 and make a 25 ft counterflow chiller or spend $40-50 and make a 50 ft
 
I use two $1.50 bags of ice from the liquor store and a sink full of cold water; just put the pot into the ice/water combo and I can get my wort down to 65-70 dF in about 20 minutes.

I had a couple cheaper-than-a-store-bought-wort-chiller/cheaper-than-a-home-made-wort-chiller ideas.

One I was thinking of filling some gallon jugs from the water I used for my last batch and freezing them; sanitizing the outside and dropping it right into the middle of my hot wort.

I then thought that the plastic jug might melt so I was thinking of getting a couple of cheap $5-$10 metal containers (maybe 1/2 the diameter of my brew pot) from some store (Bed Bath Beyond or just CVS), filling them with water and freezing them. I'd sanitize the outside and plunge them into the middle of my pot; the metal would get nice and cold by freezing and the ice inside would help it stay cold to cool down the wort.

Thoughts?
 
The reason you don't want to add cold water to a hot wort is hot-side aeration. You will probably introduce oxygen into the beer. I guess you can probably do it using high temperature resistant plastic tubing and a bottling bucket with cold water. But if you pour the cold water in it's a bad idea. Thinking about it you might even introduce oxygen with cold water in the hot wort. There may be other issues at play someone more experienced can comment on.

But I don't see what the problem is with simply cooling the wort in an ice or cold water bath in the sink or bathtub. The bath will allow you to bring the water level higher and the sheer volume of water means you'll cool it more efficiently. It's what I do now, used to use the sink. If you're using top off water then what I do is get the wort temperature to 100 at bottom and 120 at top - since chilling in a cold water/ice bath often means the kettle bottom temps are cooler then the wort at the top (heats rises duh). Once I hit that the wort goes into the fermenter and I top off with cold water, watching the temps the whole way. As I get closer to the 5 gallon line if the temps get a bit too cool then I'd use warmer water. So far though I've never needed to use anything other than cold water. I've so far always hit desired temp with no more than 3 degrees F higher.


Rev.
 
I get what you're saying but I thought that my two ideas (frozen jug or frozen metal container) are the exact same idea as an immersion cooler/copper coil wort chiller only cheaper. What am I missing, why are they not the same thing?
 
It may be herasey (sp?) but I use water right from the tap. I heard a while back that if you like drinking your tap water, it can be used to top up. Never had a bad batch and I've done this in North Carolina and Cape Cod with municipal water. Probably wouldn't be as comfortable with well.
 
Why even hassle with the ice bath? It is a pain, spend $30 and make a 25 ft counterflow chiller or spend $40-50 and make a 50 ft

I use a IC that I built to cool my wort... Most people don't think about using wort chillers until they've gone all grain and really want to chill the wort faster...

I'm already planning on making my next IC (current one is just 20' of 3/8" copper tubing)... Still trying to decide if I should go with 3/8", 1/2" or maybe even 5/8" OD copper. I want to be able to use it in the occasional 10 gallon batch too, but will most often be used in my 5 gallon batches. If I make it fit my 32qt kettle, it won't have any issue fitting in my 60qt...

Biggest thing holding me back from building the next chiller is cost of materials... Besides, my current one does a damned great job of things...
 
After my boil I put my pot in an ice bath in the sink. Then I take nearly frozen water that I put in my freezer and put it into my fermenter. Then I pour my wort into the fermenter and place the whole thing in an ice bath. I usually reach pitching temps almost immediately.
 
I have always taken my boiled wort and dumped it into my fermenter with water around 50*F (all tap water). Then pour my 5gals into 3 fermenters equally and place them in my tub with ice water. Lately I shovel the snow into my recycle bin then add it to the tub. When it get warmer I will buy some ice. I get my temp down to 60*F in 15-20mins. I also whisk the wort as much as I can during this time. I have had no problems yet from this method. Once temps are down, I mix them back together and pitch my yeast. Ive had action within 7hrs everytime and my beers have come out great.
 
I get what you're saying but I thought that my two ideas (frozen jug or frozen metal container) are the exact same idea as an immersion cooler/copper coil wort chiller only cheaper. What am I missing, why are they not the same thing?

Well, it's the same idea but it won't cool nearly as fast as you'd think!

Ice/cold water can work well if you're doing partial boils, but adding 35 degree water to boiling wort will NOT chill the wort to pitching temps and then you have 5 gallons of 100 degree wort!

If you chill the boiled wort to 90 degrees, THEN add the cold top off water, you'll easily be at 65 degrees which is perfect for chilling!
 
Hahahaha... I still don't think you get what I'm saying. I'm not saying adding the freezing water directly to the 2.5G of wort. I'm saying freeze the water inside a container (the plastic jug it had come in or a metal container) and then drop the entire container (with the ice still inside) into the wort. Then once the ice inside had melted I would take the entire jug/container out (including the ice/water still inside it) and replace it with a new one. THEN, once the 2.5G of wort is cooled to 65-70 add it to fermenter and THEN add another 2.5G of top-off water.
 
Hahahaha... I still don't think you get what I'm saying. I'm not saying adding the freezing water directly to the 2.5G of wort. I'm saying freeze the water inside a container (the plastic jug it had come in or a metal container) and then drop the entire container (with the ice still inside) into the wort. Then once the ice inside had melted I would take the entire jug/container out (including the ice/water still inside it) and replace it with a new one. THEN, once the 2.5G of wort is cooled to 65-70 add it to fermenter and THEN add another 2.5G of top-off water.

As long as you sanitize the outside of the container first, I guess it would be ok. It'd be just a giant ice block. It won't work as fast as an immersion chiller, though- no way. The reason is that it's cold water flowing continuously, not a block of melting ice. That's a lot of sanitizing stuff for me, but if it works for you that's great!
 
Yooper is right the i/c is faster. Your method of freezing and having to sanitize every thing is time consuming. When I do a partial boil I don't use a ice bath. I take 8 pint plastic food containers and freeze water in them. After the boil I put the pot in the sink with cold water. Put in the ice. Not the container and stir. When the temp of the water in the sink reaches a little above skin temp I switch to the other basin. Rest of top off water is in fridge and ready too pour in. 15 to 20 min top from boil to in the fermenter.
 
when I was still doing extract kite, and b4 I got my immersion chiller i would freeze a gal of spring water solid. I would also have 1 gal in the fridge. when boil was done i would cut the plastic off the frozen jug and put the ice block in the fermenter. I would then ladel the hot wort over the block of ice. then add the water from the fridge. top off with tap water if needed. was always at ale pitching temps within 5 min. However once i made my ic i would never consider doing it that way again. there is no comparison the ic is so much easier and less hassle.
 
Personally I just dump my wort directly over a 20lb bag of ice in my primary and then top off with bottled water. Instantly cools the wort. Never had an issue
 
I boil water and freeze it in 3-4 tupperware containers a few days before brewing. Once the boil is done, I put the pot in an ice bath in my sink, then add that blocks of ice to the wort. I get the wort under 70 degrees in 20-30 minutes this way.
 
Don't you need to let the wort sit still while cooling it for a proper cold break? Doest sound like the right stuff will come out of solution if the wort is being mixed up while cooling, at least during the first part of the cooling
 
Here is a free read if you don't have it already. http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter7-4.html Place the pot in a sink or tub filled with cold/ice water that can be circulated around the hot pot. As mentioned in the previous chapter, it is best to keep the pot lid on, but if you are careful you can speed up the cooling by stirring. Gently stir the wort in a circular manner so the maximum amount of wort is moving against the sides of the pot. Minimize splashing to avoid oxidation. Don't let water from your hands drip inside the pot; this could be a source of contamination. If the cooling water gets warm, replace with colder water. The wort should cool to 80°F in about 30 minutes. When the pot is barely warm to the touch, the temperature is in the right range.

Ice

People often wonder about adding ice directly to the cooling wort. This idea works well if you remember a couple key points.

* Never use commercial ice. It can harbor dormant bacteria that could spoil your beer.
* Always boil the water before freezing it in an airtight container (like Tupperware). It must be airtight because most freezers also harbor dormant bacteria.
* If the ice will not directly contact the wort, (i.e. you are using a frozen plastic soda bottle or other container in the wort) make sure you sanitize the outside of the bottle first before you put it in the wort.
 
when i brew extract i usually just fill my fermenter, typically a glass carboy, with 4 gallons or so of room temp water. when im done with my boil i turn the flame off and pour it right into the water and that usually cools it right down to pitching temp. are you doing a full boil?
 
The reason you don't want to add cold water to a hot wort is hot-side aeration. You will probably introduce oxygen into the beer.
Dr Charles Bamforth has pretty well exposed HSA as a myth. He talks about it in one of his BrewStrong interviews, and mentions that some major commercial brewers actually deliberately bubble air thru hot/warm wort.
 
Dr Charles Bamforth has pretty well exposed HSA as a myth. He talks about it in one of his BrewStrong interviews, and mentions that some major commercial brewers actually deliberately bubble air thru hot/warm wort.
I just Googled it and I found the podcast. This is what it says in the description:

"Dr Bamforth explains some of the myths and legends surrounding the controversial topic and instructs brewers on how to deal with HSA based on his own extensive research"

It says he explains some of the myths, not that it's all a myth. I honestly don't have the time right now to listen to it but all I'll say is there are dozens of articles about it. If he says it's all a myth then I wonder why the whole brewing community hasn't accepted and adjusted to it and why books still teach the same thing. Not saying I don't believe it, just that every time we turn around someone else is stating something is a myth due to their experimenting. When I get a moment I'll give that podcast a listen.

*EDIT - This is from Palmer's book and is still in the latest edition albeit written a little more thoroughly in the book:

"You should not aerate when the wort is hot, or even warm. Aeration of hot wort will cause the oxygen to chemically bind to various wort compounds. Over time, these compounds will break down, freeing atomic oxygen back into the beer where it can oxidize the alcohols and hop compounds producing off-flavors and aromas like wet cardboard or sherry-like flavors. The generally accepted temperature cutoff for preventing hot wort oxidation is 80°F.

Oxidation of your wort can happen in several ways. The first is by splashing or aerating the wort while it is hot. Other beginning-brewing books advocate pouring the hot wort after the boil into cold water in the fermenter to cool it and add oxygen for the yeast. Unfortunately the wort may still be hot enough to oxidize when it picks up oxygen from the splashing. Pouring it down the side of the bucket to minimize splashing doesn't really help either since this increases the surface area of the wort exposed to the air. Thus it is important to cool the wort rapidly to below 80°F to prevent oxidation, and then aerate it to provide the dissolved oxygen that the yeast need. Cooling rapidly between 90 and 140°F is important because this temperature region is ideal for bacterial growth to establish itself in the wort."

Again, I'd like to know why it's a myth when it's still claimed today supposedly using science as a result - in this example the oxygen binding chemically to certain compounds and later breaking down into the beer.


Rev.
 
FWIW, I interpreted Bamforth's statements to mean HSA is real, but a healthy vigorous fermentation takes care of most of it for you. Therefore you have about a hundred other things to worry about before HSA should concern you.
 
OK, "myth" was a poorly chosen descriptor on my part. My takeaway from the interview was that HSA is not something homebrewers who are not wantonly abusing their beers need to be overly concerned about. Rev2010, you've clearly done much more research on the subject than I. I have no interest in turning this into an argument.
 
i used to just top off out of the tap, it worked fine for cooling the beer down. i was having some clarity issues however. so all i did was make a home made immersion chiller. it was simple enough.

if you go to the hardware store you can get about 30' of 3/8" soft copper refridgerator tubing, about 9' of high temp siphon hose, three small hose clamps, and a faucet to 3/8" barb adapter all for about $35. i wrapped the copper tubing tightly around my corny keg (a pot would work well too) i kept about a foot and a half of the tubing at the bottom of the coil straight, then carefully bent that straight up thru the center. clamp 3 1/2' of siphon hose on each end,and presto $35 wort chiller that took me about 15 muinutes to make. works like a champ. mine chilled 6 gallons of wort from 180F down to 72F in about 20 muinutes with no ice bath and somewhat warm tap water.
 
I have no interest in turning this into an argument.

Nah man, not really trying to argue with you. It's just that every time we turn around someone is claiming something is a myth. If so many things are myths than what would be the causes of all the various off flavors the BJCP judges look for, just chance? The other aspect is I somehow find it hard to believe people have been brewing for so long and only find out now that hot-side aeration is a myth. I mean, wouldn't others have tested by intentionally aerating one batch of hot wort and not another and compare the taste?

I did listen to the whole podcast afterward and I took away the same thing as IffyG - he says it's real but a healthy yeast pitch and fermentation takes care of most of it. He's a renowned brewing scientist they say so he just may be right. The only other thing I'll point out though is even in all scientific fields scientists are often quite in disagreement with one another. So until there's a real valid test I for one will opt to work on the safe side of things as it's not much of a bother.


Rev.
 
I just Googled it and I found the podcast. This is what it says in the description:

"Dr Bamforth explains some of the myths and legends surrounding the controversial topic and instructs brewers on how to deal with HSA based on his own extensive research"

It says he explains some of the myths, not that it's all a myth. I honestly don't have the time right now to listen to it but all I'll say is there are dozens of articles about it. If he says it's all a myth then I wonder why the whole brewing community hasn't accepted and adjusted to it and why books still teach the same thing. Not saying I don't believe it, just that every time we turn around someone else is stating something is a myth due to their experimenting. When I get a moment I'll give that podcast a listen.

*EDIT - This is from Palmer's book and is still in the latest edition albeit written a little more thoroughly in the book:

"You should not aerate when the wort is hot, or even warm. Aeration of hot wort will cause the oxygen to chemically bind to various wort compounds. Over time, these compounds will break down, freeing atomic oxygen back into the beer where it can oxidize the alcohols and hop compounds producing off-flavors and aromas like wet cardboard or sherry-like flavors. The generally accepted temperature cutoff for preventing hot wort oxidation is 80°F.

Oxidation of your wort can happen in several ways. The first is by splashing or aerating the wort while it is hot. Other beginning-brewing books advocate pouring the hot wort after the boil into cold water in the fermenter to cool it and add oxygen for the yeast. Unfortunately the wort may still be hot enough to oxidize when it picks up oxygen from the splashing. Pouring it down the side of the bucket to minimize splashing doesn't really help either since this increases the surface area of the wort exposed to the air. Thus it is important to cool the wort rapidly to below 80°F to prevent oxidation, and then aerate it to provide the dissolved oxygen that the yeast need. Cooling rapidly between 90 and 140°F is important because this temperature region is ideal for bacterial growth to establish itself in the wort."

Again, I'd like to know why it's a myth when it's still claimed today supposedly using science as a result - in this example the oxygen binding chemically to certain compounds and later breaking down into the beer.


Rev.

Even you must know your full of **** right?
 
Man people make this so complicated!!! Just carefully pour some cold water in there. Better yet, freeze water in ziplock containers and put the ice into your kettle. Sanitize if you want. I never did though.
Ice will always cool wort better compared to water. Ice requires a LOT of energy to melt.

However, I HIGHLY suggest making a wort chiller or you could buy one if you are more comfortable spending the money that way. It's the best way to cool wort and it saves a lot of time that otherwise would have been wasted.
 
In one of Charlie Papazian books he states in every recipe that is a partial boil to pour your hot wort into your fermenter with the other amounts of water to equal your total volume. Then submerge into an ice bath. Nothing in there states whether to stir or not to stir. I mix the crap out of it for 2 reasons. 1. cause I want it to cool faster. 2. cause it helps when pitching my yeast. I do this everytime and I havent had a problem yet. If its good enough for Charlie then its good enough for me. Seems like people are forgetting what we are doing. Brewing Homebrew for fun! Its not supposed to be this complicated and insulting to others. Yes we all want to make better beer (I do too) but for the rest of us, just relax cause everyone is allowed to have an opinion. If you dont have anything nice to type then keep your fingers off the keyboard.
 
With all respect to Charlie Papazian, there are 3 reasons I strongly recommend chilling your partial boils before pouring them into your fermenter:
1) If you are fermenting in a glass carboy, hot wort + room temp glass = broken glass; if that doesn't do it, then hot wort + room temp glass + ice bath = broken glass. Broken glass = no fun (no beer and possible trip to emergency room).
2) If you are fermenting in a BetterBottle, hot wort can soften the PET and damage your BB and cause it to become misshapen.
3) If you are fermenting in a plastic bucket, these buckets have poor heat transfer qualities, and will therefore have to spend much longer in the ice bath, and it might be nice to be able to use that sink sometime today.

So I chill my partials in the kettle, in an icebath and get to pitching temp in less than 15 minutes.
 
I stumbled across this old post and found it both informative and interesting. Personally, for my extract brews, I use a combination of ice bath and added cold water. I am a little concerned with HSA, but I am comfortable with my tap water after experimenting with a few brews without boiling my tap. My tap is very good drinking water and I've made at least 4 brews with it straight from tap with nothing but great success. So, I use an ice bath for the initial cooling - boiled wort goes in the sink with icy water and gets stirred.. stirring might be underrated, it drops the temp a TON... and once the temp has fallen to something like 100 or so, I start adding cold water from the tap to get down below 80, usually 75 or something. Then I simply pour into my fermentation vessel, aerate, and add enough water from the tap to bring it to just over the 5 gallon mark. At this point it's pitching temp and I haven't really aerated it at too hot a temp. I also add the water from the tap with a measuring cup or something to minimize the aeration effect. Maybe now that I've jinxed myself, I should start boiling the water before adding to the wort, lol.
 
Not sure if it's the same water supply/source as I've had (in Natick, MA) but I won't drink the tap water, so I don't use it for brewing/fermenting. I have a really good under-sink water filter system that I use on all water I'll drink or will be used for cooking (even boiling pasta). There have been more than enough times where I've smelled chlorine in the water to NOT use it.

As for HSA being a reason for not using a chiller... That's more than just lame. I can chill my wort very quickly using my plate chiller. Even recirculating the wort into the keggle (through the chiller) both while boiling (to sanitize it) and after flame-out hasn't done any harm. I typically recirculate for 5-10 minutes, after flame-out, (depending on the season/ground water temp) and then run it into my fermenter. Doesn't take me long to chill ~7 gallons of boiling hot wort this way.
 
Golddiggie said:
Not sure if it's the same water supply/source as I've had (in Natick, MA) but I won't drink the tap water, so I don't use it for brewing/fermenting. I have a really good under-sink water filter system that I use on all water I'll drink or will be used for cooking (even boiling pasta). There have been more than enough times where I've smelled chlorine in the water to NOT use it.

As for HSA being a reason for not using a chiller... That's more than just lame. I can chill my wort very quickly using my plate chiller. Even recirculating the wort into the keggle (through the chiller) both while boiling (to sanitize it) and after flame-out hasn't done any harm. I typically recirculate for 5-10 minutes, after flame-out, (depending on the season/ground water temp) and then run it into my fermenter. Doesn't take me long to chill ~7 gallons of boiling hot wort this way.

Its probably natick labs that is making the water awful....
 
Its probably natick labs that is making the water awful....

Wouldn't put it past them... Moving to Nashua, NH this month.

My rule of thumb, for water is if it's good to drink, it's good to cook with, and it's good to brew with. Never been disappointed with this method.
 
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