Will this work? First time extract brewing

Hi everyone,
I am looking to brew beer using LME and hops for the first time (I have previously only made kits).
My equipment is limited (3 plastic carboys w/ hardware, siphon hose, funnel, 5 Gallon boiling pot) so from what I can tell, it might be best to stick with extract brewing for now, as I am not properly equipped for the lautering process.
It has been difficult to figure out exactly how to proceed simply from online reading, but I have synthesized all the things I've read into a simple recipe/methodology that I am hoping will work for my first attempt.

I was hoping I could appeal to the online brewing community to quickly review my plan and tell me if there are any fatal flaws before I begin. I know everyone has a million opinions on how to brew and I would love any suggestions you have to offer, but mostly I just want to know if I have miscalculated or left anything crucial out before wasting my time.

As a long time beer enthusiast I have pretty developed tastes and am looking to brew a very hoppy Pacific northwest style IPA.
IPA recipes tend to be quite complex but just to get a feel for it I wanted to start with something simple, so here's my plan:

Step 1: Boil 2G water, pour into carboy, seal and let cool

Step 2: Boil 2.5G water, add 1 3.3lb can of pale LME

Step 3: 30 minutes into boil - add another 3.3lb can of pale LME and 2oz centennial hops

Step 4: 50 minutes into boil - add 1 3.3lb can of amber LME

Step 5: 60 minutes into boil - take off heat and cool rapidly w/ lid on (snowbank?)

Step 6: Pour room temperature wort into carboy (w/ water from Step 1) and pitch yeast (I'm assuming a couple things, one being that ale yeast is what I will use, the other being that I just pour the package contents on top and do not stir) - seal with bung and airlock

Step 7: PRIMARY FERMENTATION - 5 days

Step 8: Dry-hop - 2 oz cascade hops into 2nd carboy, rack beer on top

Step 9: SECONDARY FERMENTATION - 10-14 days

Step 10: Boil priming sugar (dextrose) into 1 cup of water, pour into 3rd carboy, rack beer on top, stir to mix

Step 11: Bottle

So it's all done with:
- 3 3.3lb cans LME, 2 pale and 1 amber,
- 2 oz centennial hops and 2 oz cascade hops (for dry-hopping),
- about 4 Gallons of water and
- priming sugar.
This is meant to make a typical 5 Gallon batch.

So my question for you guys is, will this work?
If not, why not?
If so, are there any simple ways to improve it?

Thanks in advance

JH

Hi jubal-

I would probably advise you that, in the first place, your water volumes don't add up to 5 gallons. You will probably boil off 1/2 to 1 gallon of water, during your boil, depending on your kettle shape (wider kettles tend to have more evapoaration due to their large surface area.) if you want 5 gallons of beer, you're going to need more water, and the boiled water and wort will take a long time to cool unless you have a chiller or use an ice bath. Boil top off water a day ahead. An ice bath will remove heat better than a snowbank, as icy water will contact all of the outside of the kettle, but the snow will melt and provide a slight thermal insulation.

I would also probably try to get some hops in at the beginning of the boil, at least an ounce, depending on the AA percentage. If you like hoppy flavor, add some 45 minutes into the boil and some at 55 minutes into the boil. Brewers usually count down from, say, 60 minutes, so you will ususlly see hop additions called 60 minute additions, 15 minute aditions, 5 minute additions, after flameout, etc. in instructions.

Here's a free online calculator to help you calculate bitterness, original gravity, and finishing gravity using your plan: TastyBrew.com | Recipe Calculation

You can just pitch dry yeast on top of the COOLED wort. It must be below 110*F to avoid killing the yeast. Try to get it much lower before you pitch, at least below 70 and even better, around 65.

Also, you don't mention how you are going to bottle from the third carboy. If you are using a racking cane and a bottling wand, you can just bottle from the secondary and skip the third carboy. Use a clip or have a helper hold the bottom of the cane above the trub (the dry hops should mostly sink to the bottom.) If hops start to plug the cane, you can tie some cheesecloth or a muslin hop bag to the inlet. Either way, if they're going to clog the cane, they'll do it racking to a carboy or racking into bottles. Just one less step and might help you prevent oxygenating your beer.

Bottling buckets are pretty cheap and have spigots that you can attach a wand to with a short length of hose.

Otherwise, sounds good.
Have fun, and enjoy!

Don't do step one as written. Never pour hot liquids into a glass carboy. It would likely shatter spilling boiling liquid and glass fragments all over. Boil it and let it cool before you pour into the carboy.

Thanks for the replies fellas,

Firstly, thanks for the advice on water volume. This is one detail that never seems to be included in directions or recipes.... I assume 3 cans of extract will create, after boil, just under a Gallon, so if I boil in 3 Gallons of water (allowing for 1 Gallon to boil off) and then add the approximately 3 Gallon finished wort to the 2 Gallons of previously boiled and cooled water in the carboy, I should end up with 5 Gallons of beer, yes?
If I have excessive boil-off or a I misjudge somehow, can I not just top it up with water in the carboy until it reaches 5 Gallons?

As for putting boiling water into the carboy... a lot of directions seem to call for this and the consensus seems to be that it's ok in a food-grade plastic carboy (like the ones I'm using). It seems a little strange to me, but I have done it before with priming sugar. any further input on this subject would be appreciated.

As for the ice-bath vs snowbank advice, very appreciated. I hadn't thought of the insulating effect of the snowbank.
Now, if it is indeed alright to put boiling liquid into a plastic carboy, do I need to chill the wort, or can I just put it into the carboy hot and let it cool to room temperature slowly?

To answer your questions about bottling... yes, I have a bottling cane. The 3rd carboy was simply a way to keep the sediment and hops remnants from the dry-hopping out of my bottles. I was unaware of the risk of oxidation and don't really know what this means or how big of a concern it is. I will dry-hop and bottle right from the primary fermenter if this is in some way preferable... I'll just have to use a grain bag or some other method of keeping the hops remnants out of my bottles.

Thanks again!

JubalHarshaw said:

Thanks for the replies fellas,

Firstly, thanks for the advice on water volume. This is one detail that never seems to be included in directions or recipes.... I assume 3 cans of extract will create, after boil, just under a Gallon, so if I boil in 3 Gallons of water (allowing for 1 Gallon to boil off) and then add the approximately 3 Gallon finished wort to the 2 Gallons of previously boiled and cooled water in the carboy, I should end up with 5 Gallons of beer, yes?
If I have excessive boil-off or a I misjudge somehow, can I not just top it up with water in the carboy until it reaches 5 Gallons?

As for putting boiling water into the carboy... a lot of directions seem to call for this and the consensus seems to be that it's ok in a food-grade plastic carboy (like the ones I'm using). It seems a little strange to me, but I have done it before with priming sugar. any further input on this subject would be appreciated.

As for the ice-bath vs snowbank advice, very appreciated. I hadn't thought of the insulating effect of the snowbank.
Now, if it is indeed alright to put boiling liquid into a plastic carboy, do I need to chill the wort, or can I just put it into the carboy hot and let it cool to room temperature slowly?

To answer your questions about bottling... yes, I have a bottling cane. The 3rd carboy was simply a way to keep the sediment and hops remnants from the dry-hopping out of my bottles. I was unaware of the risk of oxidation and don't really know what this means or how big of a concern it is. I will dry-hop and bottle right from the primary fermenter if this is in some way preferable... I'll just have to use a grain bag or some other method of keeping the hops remnants out of my bottles.

Thanks again!

Click to expand...

You have directions that tell you to add HOT liquid to the carboy?? Wow... as bad as instructions are, I can't imagine they wouldn't take into consideration thermal shock and possible breakage As for a better bottle - I just don't see any reason to add hot liquid to any vessel. You say you've done it with priming solution? Why? Why not cool it?

as far as dry hopping... I think I'd rack to a secondary, off the trub, AND use a steeping bag for easy disposal and clean bottling.

JubalHarshaw said:

As for putting boiling water into the carboy... a lot of directions seem to call for this and the consensus seems to be that it's ok in a food-grade plastic carboy (like the ones I'm using). It seems a little strange to me, but I have done it before with priming sugar. any further input on this subject would be appreciated.

Click to expand...

When I did extract batches I made 2.5 gallons of wort and cooled it. Then I put the wort in my bucket and filled the bucket up to 5 gallons. I always just used tap water but if you wanted to use bottled water I think it would work just fine.

As for cooling the wort I set it a sink full of water and ice.

I am no expert but that was my system with some pretty good results.

Enjoy your brew!

I also just noticed that you said "boiling" not "Hot"... hell no do not put "boiling" water in that carboy OR better bottle. The better bottle claims the UPPER limit of temps is 140F. For one, I wouldn't ever want to push an UPPER limit of any kind, let alone 212F boiling liquid!

Interesting... Everything I read previously says boiling or hot liquid is fine for a plastic carboy but you guys seem to disagree. I have to say, it sure doesn't seem like the best thing.
I have no idea what I'm doing so when I make kits I try to follow the directions to the letter and the most recent kits I used say to boil the sugar in water and add to carboy... nowhere does it say explicitly to let it cool or cool it down so I didn't (I figured maybe it mixes better hot or something). If this was incorrect I guess it's kinda my fault but I choose to blame a lack of attention to detail on the part of the kit's instructions.

So this leads me to ask, what is the best way to prime? Should I boil the sugar, then let it cool, then add it to the batch and mix it? Should I not be mixing it? Is there a way to do this without racking the beer into another carboy? Is that better?
Some kits say to add the sugar dry by the spoonful into each bottle which just seems ridiculous to me.

unionrdr - thanks for the tip about not including the LME as part of my volume... is there something specifically wrong with adding the cans at different times, or is this just a personal preference thing? Will my method be blatantly worse in some way?

Also, if I am dry-hopping, is it necessary to add the aroma hops at the end of the boil?

Thanks again!

JH

JubalHarshaw said:

Interesting... Everything I read previously says boiling or hot liquid is fine for a plastic carboy but you guys seem to disagree. I have to say, it sure doesn't seem like the best thing.
I have no idea what I'm doing so when I make kits I try to follow the directions to the letter and the most recent kits I used say to boil the sugar in water and add to carboy... nowhere does it say explicitly to let it cool or cool it down so I didn't (I figured maybe it mixes better hot or something). If this was incorrect I guess it's kinda my fault but I choose to blame a lack of attention to detail on the part of the kit's instructions.

So this leads me to ask, what is the best way to prime? Should I boil the sugar, then let it cool, then add it to the batch and mix it? Should I not be mixing it? Is there a way to do this without racking the beer into another carboy? Is that better?
Some kits say to add the sugar dry by the spoonful into each bottle which just seems ridiculous to me.

unionrdr - thanks for the tip about not including the LME as part of my volume... is there something specifically wrong with adding the cans at different times, or is this just a personal preference thing? Will my method be blatantly worse in some way?

Also, if I am dry-hopping, is it necessary to add the aroma hops at the end of the boil?

Thanks again!

JH

Click to expand...

It's not just us that disagree... the makers for the product do too

Water Temperature - Very Hot Water is Dangerous, Potentially Destructive, and Unnecessary.

BetterBottle PET carboys are rated up to 60�C (140�F), the highest temperature considered acceptable for residential hot water heaters, and BetterBottle fittings are rated up to 75� C (167�F), the highest temperature for the great majority of residential dishwashers. Water above 52�C (125�F) is generally considered to be dangerously hot and is not necessary for effective washing or sanitizing. The following chart, taken from the University of Michigan, Pediatric Advisor 2006, shows just how dangerous hot water can be.1 At temperatures above 60�C (140�F), it may not be possible to react quickly enough to avoid a serious burn.

Boiling water is at least 212F.


Don't prime each bottle - that's tedious and dangerous. You won't get uniform priming and could end up with a bottle bomb. I use a bottling bucket with a spigot - SO NICE! No need to siphon to bottles. I rack my beer from the primary to the bottling bucket using an autosiphon. Before I do this, I boil my priming solution and let it cool. I add the cooled mixture to the bucket FIRST, then I rack my beer to that and the end of the hose that goes into the bottling bucket gets put to the side of the bucket to create a bit of a swirl to mix everything, tube stays under the priming solution and subsequently stays under the beer/priming solution while racking. Then I use a bottling cane attached to the spigot to fill bottles!

You know, I don't actually think those kit instructions are intentionally implying that you should add the liquid just after boiling, it's just that those instruction SUCK so badly, that they omit pertinent information/steps that they either assume you know or don't they just don't care to clarify - IE, ferment for 1 week when it should be at least 2! OR, cool liquid before adding to carboy... Don't blindly follow those kit instructions - they are awful and misleading. Follow the advice here. Read the stickies and the guides. I recommend reading Palmer's book how to brew!

JubalHarshaw said:

Interesting... Everything I read previously says boiling or hot liquid is fine for a plastic carboy but you guys seem to disagree. I have to say, it sure doesn't seem like the best thing.
I have no idea what I'm doing so when I make kits I try to follow the directions to the letter and the most recent kits I used say to boil the sugar in water and add to carboy... nowhere does it say explicitly to let it cool or cool it down so I didn't (I figured maybe it mixes better hot or something). If this was incorrect I guess it's kinda my fault but I choose to blame a lack of attention to detail on the part of the kit's instructions.

So this leads me to ask, what is the best way to prime? Should I boil the sugar, then let it cool, then add it to the batch and mix it? Should I not be mixing it? Is there a way to do this without racking the beer into another carboy? Is that better?
Some kits say to add the sugar dry by the spoonful into each bottle which just seems ridiculous to me.

unionrdr - thanks for the tip about not including the LME as part of my volume... is there something specifically wrong with adding the cans at different times, or is this just a personal preference thing? Will my method be blatantly worse in some way?

Also, if I am dry-hopping, is it necessary to add the aroma hops at the end of the boil?

Thanks again!

JH

Click to expand...

Late extract additions help prevent caramelization. The LME would darken & cause that twang you read about,plus darker color than intended. So one can for the boil,the other two at flame out.
I boil 2C of water,than add the priming sugar,stirring to dissolve. Then cover & cool while getting other things ready for the fermenter.
And it's best to add the priming solution to a bottling bucket,then rack the beer onto it to mix it. Maybe even a few gentle stirs to make sure it's mixed.
Do not add it to the carboy primary. You'd be stiring up the trub by stirring to mix it in.
You can add some aroma hops at or near the end of the boil. I do sometimes if I'm not dry hopping. But dry hopping is the best,imo,for aroma bar none.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/beginner-extract-brewing-howto-99139/

This thread could be helpful.

I really appreciate you all taking the time to answer some of my specific questions, I think I'm ready to go.
I'll keep you posted as to how it goes and I'm always interested in further suggestions.

Update for anyone who is interested:

I went ahead with a modified version of the original plan posted in this thread.
After boiling and cooling half the water and sealing it in my carboy, I did a 60 minute boil with 1 3.3lb can of amber LME and 2 oz of northern brewers' hops in a grain bag.
I added 2 more cans of LME (another amber and a blonde - small-town availability played a bit of a role here) just before flameout.
I then cooled the wort and added it to the water in the carboy to make 5 Gallons. I stirred it lightly, let it settle and cool then pitched the yeast (14g of cooper's ale yeast) and capped it off with an airlock.
I allowed it to ferment for 8 days and then, yesterday, I racked it into a secondary carboy containing 2 oz of dry cascade hops.
Now I plan to let it sit for another 2 weeks before priming and bottling.
So far so good... the beer is a lot darker in colour then the recipe calculator said it would be, but it looks about right for the ingredients I put in I think.
I'll post updates here as things develop if the thread still exists.

I was concerned about this at the time so I looked it up... definitely seems like there are differeing opinions, but consensus seemed to be the primary fermentation doesnt have to be that long.

John Palmer: "The majority of the attenuation occurs during the primary phase, and can last anywhere from 2-6 days for ales, or 4-10 days for lagers, depending on conditions."

Also, I am not using a hydrometer, but the airlock stopped bubbling entirely after about 6 days, which I took as an indication that primary fermentation was complete.
I am concerned that I did not use enough yeast, but it is twice the amount I have used for kits in the past. I got the 14g figure from the calculator at mrmalty.com.

your use of twice the yeast might also account for longer fermentation time, but does that mean I have not realized the full potential of the wort in some way?

JubalHarshaw said:

I was concerned about this at the time so I looked it up... definitely seems like there are differeing opinions, but consensus seemed to be the primary fermentation doesnt have to be that long.

John Palmer: "The majority of the attenuation occurs during the primary phase, and can last anywhere from 2-6 days for ales, or 4-10 days for lagers, depending on conditions."

Also, I am not using a hydrometer, but the airlock stopped bubbling entirely after about 6 days, which I took as an indication that primary fermentation was complete.
I am concerned that I did not use enough yeast, but it is twice the amount I have used for kits in the past. I got the 14g figure from the calculator at mrmalty.com.

your use of twice the yeast might also account for longer fermentation time, but does that mean I have not realized the full potential of the wort in some way?

Click to expand...

Also worthy of note is that that OG 1.065 comes from a 6 gallon batch. 5G batch would've been more like1.070-1.075OG. And that book line isn't exactly accurate. In the first 2-5 days or so,only initial fermentation will be done. It'll slow down at that point with little or no bubbling till it ferments down to a stable FG. Always use a hydrometer to know for sure. Airlocks are just pressure check valves. It can be used to know when initial,vigorous fermentation is done,but not primary fermentaion to FG. I figured you got the 14g figure from using 2 7g cooper's ale yeast packets. And pitching as much ale yeast as I did re-hydrated would be about the same as a starter yeast amount. That usually makes for a faster,more vigourous ferment. Which it most certainly did. But when it got down to 1.020,I thought maybe it stalled. So I went through the swirl & warm it up routine for another week.
In reality it was done from the amount of darker malts I used. Not to mention,having to wait till it cleared back up again.
Oh well,leason learned. You're never done learning with this hobby.

JubalHarshaw said:

I
John Palmer: "The majority of the attenuation occurs during the primary phase, and can last anywhere from 2-6 days for ales, or 4-10 days for lagers, depending on conditions."

Also, I am not using a hydrometer, but the airlock stopped bubbling entirely after about 6 days, which I took as an indication that primary fermentation was complete.
I am concerned that I did not use enough yeast, but it is twice the amount I have used for kits in the past. I got the 14g figure from the calculator at mrmalty.com.

your use of twice the yeast might also account for longer fermentation time, but does that mean I have not realized the full potential of the wort in some way?

Click to expand...

What Palmer wrote was true, that the majority of the attenuation was done in the 4 to 6 days but that doesn't address the rest of the fermentation that takes place when that period is over. This second phase goes much slower and does so without releasing CO2 so your airlock won't be any kind of indicator of this phase's completion. Only your hydrometer will tell the whole story.

At the end of the week of dry hopping, pop the top off the carboy and take a hydrometer sample and while the top is off take a sniff. Your nose will be a pretty good indicator of what your beer will have for an aroma when it is done,

To clarify, I did leave it in the primary for close to 9 days when all bubbling in the airlock has stopped completely by 6.
Also, it is my intention to leave it in the secondary fermenter for another 2 weeks for the 'conditioning' phase.
Some might say not long enough (approximately 23 days total fermentation prior to bottling) but I don't want to push it too far as I have already added the dry hops, which most recommend doing for 7 days. From what I've read, this is OK to push at least as far as 14 days.

All that seem on the level?

Ok,
So I'm thinking about bottling tomorrow... that means almost 9 days in primary and 10 in secondary with dry hops. I know some people will say that's not enough fermentation time but then others would question dry-hopping for too much more than 7 days, so I'm trying to split the difference.
This seem like the best course of action?

So the beer is done. The end result is not what I expected but it is interesting.
It is sort of a dark reddish brown and lets very little light through. The flavour is very strong and maltier than I expected. I am not sure if this is because I used so much amber LME or if maybe I has some carmelization in the boil.
I would describe the flavour as being sort of like a strong dunkelweizen that is heavy on the hops.
Interesting for sure, albeit not really what I was going for. Certainly not the easiest drinking beer in the world but drinkable.