I propose a new law

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Status
Not open for further replies.

todd_k

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2006
Messages
2,640
Reaction score
38
I think a new federal law should be passed banning any search and rescue attempts for hikers/mountain climbers who choose to climb mountains such as Mt. Hood, in the middle of winter. How much money is being wasted trying to find these idiots when common sense should tell them not to climb a mountain because you may get snowed on and freeze to death.

It's called Natural Selection! They are being singled out so they cannot pass their stupid genes on to future generations.
 
todd_k said:
I think a new federal law should be passed banning any search and rescue attempts for hikers/mountain climbers who choose to climb mountains such as Mt. Hood, in the middle of winter. How much money is being wasted trying to find these idiots when common sense should tell them not to climb a mountain because you may get snowed on and freeze to death.

It's called Natural Selection! They are being singled out so they cannot pass their stupid genes on to future generations.

Washingtonians have to be happy about their tax dollars being put to good use. Never mind school quality, let's save people too dumb to know not to climb a mountain in February.
 
Cheesefood said:
Washingtonians have to be happy about their tax dollars being put to good use. Never mind school quality, let's save people too dumb to know not to climb a mountain in February.

LOL--there's always something deliciously amusing about someone making a mistake while dogging others for being stupid. The rescue was on Mt. Hood (in Oregon), right?
 
cweston said:
LOL--there's always something deliciously amusing about someone making a mistake while dogging others for being stupid. The rescue was on Mt. Hood (in Oregon), right?

Of course the difference is the magnitude of the mistake. I'm sure that if Cheese thought he might be putting his and other people's lives at stake as well as wasting a ton of taxpayer money, he'd have checked the facts first.
 
No more laws, please. Just get government out of it. You know this will likely develop into a political thread and get shut down, right?

Often the states try to bill back the costs for the rescue to the climbers, but they generally won't get their money back. The costs are overwhelming, so taxpayers end up getting stuck with it. There are lots of problems with the state being involved at all. A debate site like Volconvo is probably a better place to discuss it. In fact, there was a thread on the last Mt. Hood rescue drama that you could search for on that site.

I favor an insurance-based and personal responsibility-based approach. In my view, mountain climbing is a risky undertaking that people are free to engage in. By default, no one has an obligation to save them if they get into trouble. They could purchase insurance or not. Insurance rates might be structured as either accidental death type with payments made to named beneficiaries in the event of the climbers death, or might include retrieval/rescue services for a much higher price. If a climber fails to obtain insurance, he is accepting the full risk of his actions personally and should not expect rescue.

Climbers could form associations to pool resources for funding rescue attempts, too, and have volunteers from the association pitch in on rescues. Might not be feasible unless there are a lot of mountain climbers out there with the skill level to tackle a rescue in wintry blizzard conditions on big mountains.

Since the news media just love these dramas, perhaps they might wish to fund some rescues to drive up ratings and viewership. They could own the rights and make mini-series or sell 'em to big movie houses.

I'm sure there are more ways that people could dream up that avoid having taxpayers foot the bill.
 
rdwj said:
Of course the difference is the magnitude of the mistake. I'm sure that if Cheese thought he might be putting his and other people's lives at stake as well as wasting a ton of taxpayer money, he'd have checked the facts first.

Yeah, yeah--I was just making light.

I guess I should have included the following...

:ban: :mug: :D :)
 
Just wanted to say I agree with beer4breakfast. People should have a right to be stupid, but everyone else shouldn't have to be held responsible for their stupidity.
 
beer4breakfast said:
Climbers could form associations to pool resources for funding rescue attempts, too, and have volunteers from the association pitch in on rescues. Might not be feasible unless there are a lot of mountain climbers out there with the skill level to tackle a rescue in wintry blizzard conditions on big mountains.

I think the vast majority of the personpower of these rescue missions usually is from volunteer climbing organizations. Where the expense really gets racked up is in logistics from local law enforcement, helicopters, etc.

It's a tough issue with some major slippery slope problems. Could the same arguments be applied to a fat guy with high cholesteral who has a heart attack and needs an ambulance?
 
cweston said:
It's a tough issue with some major slippery slope problems. Could the same arguments be applied to a fat guy with high cholesteral who has a heart attack and needs an ambulance?

That's why it's best to get government out of it. If government provides a service, everyone has to pay for it. That gives the state more leverage to pass more laws that infringe on personal liberties.

Private solutions are best.
 
I think we should level Mt. Hood and drill for oil there. I mean, there's gotta be some Oregon Tea down there somewhere, right? Good thing there are no evil laws preventing us from doing this. :D
 
Fiery Sword said:
I think we should level Mt. Hood and drill for oil there. I mean, there's gotta be some Oregon Tea down there somewhere, right? Good thing there are no evil laws preventing us from doing this. :D

Hey, if you own Mt Hood, go for it.
 
I SCUBA dive and the coast guard and my medical insurance is quite clear on the obligation of any airlift/recompression chamber costs as being MY problem. That's why there's DAN and divesafe insurance.
 
If people want to risk their own lives and volunteer man hours, equipment, gas, etc then that's fine with me. I was more concerned with the stupidity of the climbers rather than who was paying to save these morons. Can't you wait until spring to climb that mountain?
 
orfy said:
Simple. Make them take insurance or be affiliated to a club with insurance or they pay for it themselves.

Probelm with that Orfy is now you're getting the governement involved again. IMHO if you're dumb enuff to go up a mountain thats known to be dangerous in the winter (most dangerous time) and ya get stuck I dont know why we are diverting law enforcement resources to get ya unstuck.

If some volenteer group wants to help ya out fine with me
 
I hear what you are saying and have the same sentiment but when it comes down to it aren't tax dollars and the government supposed to be there for the good of the masses and individuals? The less fortunate unfortunately do need help. Even the thick ones. There is no way individuals can afford to pay out the full $100,000 or so a rescue mission costs but it's reasonable to ask them to cover it with insurance. You have to do that with other things like motoring and public liability insurance.

Although I do subcribe to the old "Remove warning signs and safety label to help clean the gene pool" movement.
 
beer4breakfast said:
That's why it's best to get government out of it. If government provides a service, everyone has to pay for it. That gives the state more leverage to pass more laws that infringe on personal liberties.

Private solutions are best.

AMEN brother.
 
Fiery Sword said:
I think we should level Mt. Hood and drill for oil there. I mean, there's gotta be some Oregon Tea down there somewhere, right? Good thing there are no evil laws preventing us from doing this. :D


No need to level it! We can get at the oil from the side - like Mr Burns did. We just need to build lots of roads and cover the mountain with a fine layer of diesel-soot (thus protecting it further.)

:D
 
orfy said:
I hear what you are saying and have the same sentiment but when it comes down to it aren't tax dollars and the government supposed to be there for the good of the masses and individuals? The less fortunate unfortunately do need help. Even the thick ones.

The government’s job isn’t to help people. Government is only needed to create a system where everyone has the opportunity to use their abilities to help themselves. Any other help (interference) only restricts freedom and hinders ones ability to help themselves.
 
I'm still amzed by the number of libertarians on this site (even if most dont know they are libertarians) . . . Go us :)
 
Yeah, it's pretty great, but aren't we going to get in trouble for saying all this stuff? ;)
 
Most of the rescues are not high profile like the last two.
It's mostly regular people (day hikers) making poor decisions in all types of weather conditions.
Most of the injuries associated with rescue occur while volunteers are driving in their vehicles en-route to the scene.

Lets be thankful that no beer was lost in this operation.
 
I believe all the rescuers road-tripped over to Rogue to celebrate after the rescue. (ahhhhh, back on beer topic. we're safe.)

...and for all I know Rogue and Mt. Hood are 7 hours away from each other. :D
 
We have a "Stupid Motorist Law"

http://www.azcentral.com/specials/special21/articles/0217waterrescue17.html

Stupid motorists, beware
County to invoke law, charge for Cave Creek flood rescue

Holly Johnson
The Arizona Republic
Feb. 17, 2005 12:00 AM


SCOTTSDALE - The Maricopa County Sheriff's Office will invoke the state's "stupid motorist law" for the first time, after a Cave Creek man drove around traffic barricades and tried to cross a flooded street last week in his Hummer.

The driver, Paul Zalewski, 47, reportedly ignored warnings not to enter Creek Canyon Road in Cave Creek on Friday.

But "Hummers are made to float," sheriff's spokesman Lt. Paul Chagolla said. "Other people told him not to go in there, and he did it anyway," endangering himself and six passengers, including three children.


Zalewski was cited for reckless driving. If he is found guilty of the charge in Cave Creek Municipal Court, he will be prosecuted under the state's stupid motorist law, which was passed in 1995 and requires drivers to reimburse the state for the cost of rescues.

Sheriff's spokesman Sgt. Travis Anglin said the cost of the 55-minute rescue could exceed $800, based on hourly rates for fuel and maintenance of the rescue helicopter, two employees inside the aircraft, insurance and any damage sustained during rescue.

Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio is considering charging another Cave Creek resident, Jacqueline Goodspeed, 65, for entering a flooded area near 58th Street and Desert Hills Drive despite warnings from officers.

Neither Zalewski or Goodspeed have yet been charged, but Arpaio said Wednesday that he intends to "pursue the law" if they are found guilty of reckless driving.

"We basically have people who were told not to go around barricades, and they went anyway. It's rather stupid," he said.

But that doesn't mean stranded motorists shouldn't call for help.

"It's not worth dying over the possibility of getting a ticket," Arpaio said. "We want people to use common sense." With more strong storms expected to hit this weekend, more than 600 sheriff's volunteers are on standby.

After wet weather dumped two inches of rain over the Valley over the past week, the sheriff's posses had a record-breaking number of rescues: 21 people, including 7 children, and three dogs.

Wednesday the Sheriff's Office assisted the Phoenix Fire Department in the rescue of a man from a flooded truck near 91st Avenue and Baseline Road, near the Salt River basin.

"It's a very serious situation," Arpaio said. "We're predicting more flooding in the washes and rivers, but we're proactive. We're ready to go."

Water rescues involve painstaking precision by both pilots and rescuers; helicopters fly directly over stranded vehicles and airlift victims to safety one at a time. One skid rests and balances on the vehicle, allowing rescuers to scoop up victims, while the other skid hovers above the water.

Wet, precarious surfaces and the risk of electrical shock make the task a dangerous one for rescuers, Anglin said. And "every single time it rains, somebody does this.

"And it's always the same washes. If an H2 and a tractor-trailer and a front-loader can't make it through these washes, your car isn't going to."
 
olllllo said:
Zalewski was cited for reckless driving. If he is found guilty of the charge in Cave Creek Municipal Court, he will be prosecuted under the state's stupid motorist law, which was passed in 1995 and requires drivers to reimburse the state for the cost of rescues.

THAT is exactly the kind of law we need more of. Inidividual responsibility. And really, we need more laws where the punishment is to reimburse other people you may have injured in one way or another, rather than paying fines to the government.

Anyway, Oregon and Washington do have some of the best beers in the country. I love Deschutes' Black Butte Porter. ;)
 
Since the news media just love these dramas, perhaps they might wish to fund some rescues to drive up ratings and viewership. They could own the rights and make mini-series or sell 'em to big movie houses
.

If this isn't a perfect "reality TV series": Natural Selection - Stupid people against Nature. Unfortunately, mid-winter mountaineering means no hot babes in bikinis.:mad:
 
Although it is unfortunate that they lost their lives, you could say they knew the risks they were taking. That said, I think it not only is a big waste of tax dollars to fund rescue efforts (for only a few individuals), it is also an inconvenience to those rescue workers who might otherwise have gotten to spend more time during the holidays with thier loved ones. (i'm referring to the previous incident during Christmas time.) yes, it is their job, but not to bail out those who knowingly took the risk, for sport nonetheless.

I'm no libertarian, but I disagree with this wasted effort.

The tax dollars could go toward beer research. :)
 
orfy said:
On that note I have a very important announcement to make.















I'm going the Pub.
:D


BAH!!! not even noon here and I wanna go with ya . . . but I gotta pick up the kid from school and the wife frowns on me doing that buzzed
 
Well I'm back. I only had a 2 halfs. (Driving) I have to go back out at 9pm, in the meantime I'll clean 2 kegs keg a pale ale and a Hobgoblin whilst chugging another Blonde. Then I can have a few with Dinner.
 
Washingtonians have to be happy about their tax dollars being put to good use. Never mind school quality, let's save people too dumb to know not to climb a mountain in February.

Unless there's a pub up there with a kick-a$$ beer selection, I aint climbin' no mountain!:D
 
Brewtopia said:
Unless there's a pub up there with a kick-a$$ beer selection. I aint climbin' no mountain!:D

How 'bout for some fresh Mt. Hood hops?





(I can't believe it's post 33 and no one has mentioned these hops by now... )
 
I agree people need to take responsibility for their own stupidity. In CT(and probably elsewhere) if you crash your car into a telephone pole(and live), you pay for a new one, and they aint cheap. A friend of mine had to shell out about $5,000 for one.

As for those mountain climbers, don't they know they can get a hand held GPS for about $100?? Seems like that might be an easy solution...
 
cnbudz said:
As for those mountain climbers, don't they know they can get a hand held GPS for about $100?? Seems like that might be an easy solution...

why spend a $100? Bring a plastic sled that costs like $5 and let gravity do the rest
:drunk:
 
todd_k said:
I think a new federal law should be passed banning any search and rescue attempts for hikers/mountain climbers who choose to climb mountains such as Mt. Hood, in the middle of winter. How much money is being wasted trying to find these idiots when common sense should tell them not to climb a mountain because you may get snowed on and freeze to death.

It's called Natural Selection! They are being singled out so they cannot pass their stupid genes on to future generations.
It's about time someone said this im 100% with ya. :tank:
 
You people better not touch my Mt. Hood OR my hop stash! *mad* I have an awesome view of that volcano and you'll ruin my property value leveling it.



OH, you didn't know it was an active volcano? :D
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top