Star-San vs. Iodophor - FIGHT!

Brau_Haus said:

But if the amounts are so innocuous, wouldn't the minimal amounts of chlorine also be subsequently forced to bond with the ions in the beer, thus stopping the oxidation process?

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Depends on the chlorine compound. I regularly use chlorine dioxide as a sanitizer for yeast cultures. Chlorine dioxide readily sublimates, 1 - 2 hours, and leaves zero chlorite dissolved in the water. So, this type of chlorine is useful to the homebrewer, especially since it doesn't affect yeast viability.

Sodium hypochlorite (household bleach) doesn't readily sublimate (think of swimming pools) and must be rinsed since humans can detect dissolved hypochorlite in very small concentrations. Besides that, it's a very powerful oxidizer and will pit pretty much any common metal over time and is dangerous if mixed with acidic cleaners/sanitizers. This type of chlorine should be avoided if possible.

Make sense?

Folks that don't believe bleach + vinegar is equally good -- Hey, don't take my word for it -- listen to this podcast (lord knows why the owner of star-san would tell this secret):

Basic Brewing™ : Home Brewing Beer Podcast and DVD - Basic Brewing Radio™ 2007

March 29, 2007 - Sanitizing with Bleach and Star San
Charlie Talley from Five Star Chemicals tells us best practices in using household bleach and Star San in sanitizing equipment.

RBlagojevich said:

Folks that don't believe bleach + vinegar is equally good -- Hey, don't take my word for it -- listen to this podcast (lord knows why the owner of star-san would tell this secret):

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You're providing REALLY bad information to people. Mixing bleach and vinegar causes an immediate [non-violent] reaction that releases chlorine gas into the air. Chlorine gas can be very dangerous to your health if inhaled.

Why People Mix Bleach and Vinegar [Anne Marie Helmenstine, Ph.D.]

If mixing bleach and vinegar releases toxic chlorine gas, then why do people do it? There are two answers to this question. The first answer is that vinegar lowers the pH of bleach, making it a better disinfectant. I'll explain how that works in a bit. The second answer to 'why people mix bleach and vinegar' is that people don't know any better or underestimate the risk. They hear mixing the chemicals makes them better cleaners and disinfectants, but don't realize it isn't going to make enough of a difference to justify the considerable health hazard.

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I was kidding around with you earlier, but you need to fully disclose the risks of mixing chemicals if you're going to recommend a particular solution. That, or include a disclaimer in all of your chemical related posts.

Oh come on. Like I said before, you can't mix them directly because it makes a poison gas. But stir an ounce of bleach into 5 gallons of water and then stir in an ounce of vinegar, and you're cool.

Anyway, Mr. Talley from Star San goes into all this in detail in the above-mentioned podcast.

RB(lots of consonants) is right. Bleach solution combined appropriately with a mild acid is highly effective.

Star San FTW!!!

Iodophor has been a savior to me. In all honesty, I've never used Star-san but I have used some other no rinse cleaners that cant even come close to Iodophor. I love the stuff. It's cheap and easy. That's all I need.

Iodophor works best cold. This may have not been said previously. My house puts out 154F tap water at it's hottest. That means I don't have too far to go to get my water boiling. However, I only have so much hot water before it starts moving to luke warm. When I was using other cleansers that needed hot water to work it took away from my brewing water. That in addition to the cheap cost and ease of use makes Iodophor work for me.

kaiser423 said:

Please; it's silly to try and save a quarter and end up not even sanitizing your bottles...<snip>THAT seems silly to me.

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kaiser, can't I just run my bottles through the dishwasher (without jet dry or other agent) to get them sanitized?..


lamarguy: thanks. Lots of good info.

eschatz said:

Iodophor has been a savior to me. In all honesty, I've never used Star-san but I have used some other no rinse cleaners that cant even come close to Iodophor. I love the stuff. It's cheap and easy. That's all I need.

Iodophor works best cold. This may have not been said previously. My house puts out 154F tap water at it's hottest. That means I don't have too far to go to get my water boiling. However, I only have so much hot water before it starts moving to luke warm. When I was using other cleansers that needed hot water to work it took away from my brewing water. That in addition to the cheap cost and ease of use makes Iodophor work for me.

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I would not compare Star-San to the other no rinse sanitizers. It's effective. It's easy. Tasteless. Odorless. Reuseable. Non staining. Can be used on warm water (not hot) or cold from a spray bottle. 30-second contact time.

You can argue cost, but the small amount of difference is not considerable IMO. I buy a 2.5 gallon jug of distilled water and add a small amount of Star-san. When I'm done using it, it goes back into the jug for next time. I've done 3 brews with the same jug so far and not even half gone, and not being careful with it. If you have soft water, you dont' even nee to worry about using distilled water.

Brau_Haus said:

kaiser, can't I just run my bottles through the dishwasher (without jet dry or other agent) to get them sanitized?..


lamarguy: thanks. Lots of good info.

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If you can run the washer without rinse aid, then you CAN sanitized bottles using the sanitize cycle on the wash, if it has one. I did this once or twice. Now I do it easier.

I dunk my bottles in star-san and place upside down on the top rack, with the tops of the bottles stuck in the openings. This way you avoid touching the top with the rack, and secures the bottle very well. By the time I've loaded up the 48-50 bottles, the first ones are dripped and possibly drying.

No worries, because they are upside down and preventing bugs from getting in there. Just start pulling them out and filling them.

If the star-san is still wet, no worries, just fill right on top!

I find this is faster than running a rinse cycle.

You can also sterilize the bottles in the oven if you like.

i just tasted a beer that was destroyed by using a too-strong soultion of iodophor. it was truely disgusting. can star-san produce off flavors if used incorrectly?

I use Starsan. I learned the hard way that bleach ain't as good as I thought it was. I've never used Idophor, simply because Starsan works; if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Regards, GF.

I can't believe no one has used science to solve this mystery...

it is so simple.

Starsan or Iodophore, which is better scientifically

Boerderij_Kabouter said:

I can't believe no one has used science to solve this mystery...

it is so simple.

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Let me help you with that link - Google Fight: Starsan vs Iodophor.

And, here is my own fight! Google Fight: Starsan vs Iodine

BarleyWater said:

It's also great at cleaning mineral deposits off, and kills ants instantly.

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I can second that it does indeed kill ants almost instantly. We had a few on the countertop tonight and I noticed one went to that big picnic in the sky seconds after the Star San made contact with him, so I tried it on the few remaining buggers with the same result. They are dead within seconds after contact with the diluted Star San.

I was reading this thread because I'm making our 5th batch of Apfelwein tonight and I wanted to make sure that the foam won't affect Apfelwein (I've read that the foam won't affect beer, but it never hurts to check).

I like iodophor for bottling day and I'm using Star San for everything else. I use iodophor on bottling day because I don't really care for all that foam interfering with an accurate fill level. Even if it gets pushed out of the top of the bottle, that's just more mess to deal with and we don't have that problem with the iodophor.

I sure like the Star San for other purposes and one of the main reasons I like it is that it doesn't stain the countertops.

kedash said:

I sure like the Star San for other purposes and one of the main reasons I like it is that it doesn't stain the countertops.

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Just for clarity, he means "undiluted" Star San will not stain countertops. Several people on this board have found out that straight Star San WILL stain countertops if left on long enough.

I started out years ago using bleach. I probably used too much bleach and it seemed like I could never get the smell out of the carboys and bottles. I bleached some clothes and was pissed. Eventually I found iodophor and I like it just fine but once I started using starsan in a spray bottle, and now a pump sprayer, it will take a long time to go back to iodophor. I just spray in a few ounces of starsan in a carboy, enough to swirl it around the entire thing, let it sit for a minute and repeat, then drain it out, and pour the wort in. I like the foam, it helps the stuff to keep in contact with what you're sanitizing. I also used it to kill a big spider last night.

Dude said:

I use Iodophor exclusively.

I have used both, and I hate Star-san because of the foam. It takes forever to get it off (say in a glass carboy) and for the pros already mentioned in Iodophor, that seals the deal for me. I won't use anything else for my brew equipment.

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I hate the foam as well. Should I worry about removing the foam since it is supposed to be no rinse?

The foam is completely harmless.

I use star-san, it's all I've ever used. I keep a spray bottle around and compulsively sanitize anything that might touch beer. I also keep a 5 gallon bucket which I replace every week that gets used for sanitizing bottles, tubing, etc.

Regarding the foam: I don't like it either so what I do is put the Starsan solution in the carboy (it foams just pouring it in there) well ahead of time (like during the boil). Then cap the carboy with foil and slosh it around (getting the foil/lip of carboy wet too). Then I'll slosh it around again a few minutes later then just let it sit. When you pour the Starsan out do it slowly so it doesn't 'gurgle'. No foam, wet carboy.

OR: If you happen to be making a fresh batch of Starsan, pour the distilled water into the clean carboy first (no foam) then add the Starsan to the carboy and swirl it enough to mix. Dump slowly. You shouldn't have much if any foam.

I love the foam, especially when I transfer to a bottling bucket. That head of star-san foam on top will kill anything trying to land on my beer.

SpanishCastleAle said:

Regarding the foam: I don't like it either so what I do is put the Starsan solution in the carboy (it foams just pouring it in there) well ahead of time (like during the boil). Then cap the carboy with foil and slosh it around (getting the foil/lip of carboy wet too). Then I'll slosh it around again a few minutes later then just let it sit. When you pour the Starsan out do it slowly so it doesn't 'gurgle'. No foam, wet carboy.

OR: If you happen to be making a fresh batch of Starsan, pour the distilled water into the clean carboy first (no foam) then add the Starsan to the carboy and swirl it enough to mix. Dump slowly. You shouldn't have much if any foam.

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I keep a small bucket of saniclean around. After sanitizing with star-san I pour in some sani-clean in and slosh it around.

I use Iodophore and love that it's cheap. I can't comment on Starsan as I've never used it. I allow a 5 minute contact time for my Iodophore and fill up a little spray bottle with the Iodophore solution to spray things that aren't fitting down into the solution. My very first time using it I think I ruined a batch by not paying careful attention to my concentration, that beer had a very distinct cleaner flavor and aroma. As my father-in-law put it, "It tastes like it was filtered through a laundry basket". Ever since then I pay specific attention to my concentrations and haven't had any problems at all. Yeah, even at 12.5ppm I can can smell that faint iodine smell in the bucket that I've mixed in but several times I've scooped up a puddle of it in my hand and tasted it and can't detect any iodine taste.

Cheap is great for me. Maybe some time I'll try Starsan...or maybe not.

Merry Christmas everyone!! I love this forum. I waste so much damn time at work reading through this site it's sick. Fortunately, I'm self employed so I only have myself to get angry at!

Cheap is great for me. Maybe some time I'll try Starsan...or maybe not.

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One of the great things about Starsan is if you mix it using distilled water you can use it over and over and over...

Only used Iodophor.

The dairy industry supposedely uses a ton of this stuff.

I've never had an issue with any off flavor beers.

I use about 18 ppm (I think 24 ppm is the max you can use to be a no-rinse sanitizer)

Dude said:

I use Iodophor exclusively. I have used both, and I hate Star-san because of the foam.

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I use Star-San in some applications (like my glass fermenters) and another Five Star product, Saniclean, in others -- for example, prepping kegs to fill them. According to the Fact Sheet, "SANICLEAN is a blend of phosphoric acid and Sulfonate Oleic Acid." It is very low foam -- as in, almost no foam.

Anyway, it works well, and when mixed to directions, it won't stain and is no-rinse. A spray bottle of the stuff can be a handy thing for opening carboys and the like.

Star-San and Saniclean for me, I will never go back to Iodophor but that's just me.

Has anyone run into problems using Star San on stainless or copper?

I saw the note on the AHS website saying that it is not recommended for copper or aluminum - was wondering if that would cause problems down the road for equip such as heat exchangers

Homercidal said:

If you can run the washer without rinse aid, then you CAN sanitized bottles using the sanitize cycle on the wash, if it has one. I did this once or twice. Now I do it easier.

I dunk my bottles in star-san and place upside down on the top rack, with the tops of the bottles stuck in the openings. This way you avoid touching the top with the rack, and secures the bottle very well. By the time I've loaded up the 48-50 bottles, the first ones are dripped and possibly drying.

No worries, because they are upside down and preventing bugs from getting in there. Just start pulling them out and filling them.

If the star-san is still wet, no worries, just fill right on top!

I find this is faster than running a rinse cycle.

You can also sterilize the bottles in the oven if you like.

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I used to do my bottles in the dish washer too. I do it just like Homercidal now and I find it to be faster and easier.

MikeZ said:

Has anyone run into problems using Star San on stainless or copper?

I saw the note on the AHS website saying that it is not recommended for copper or aluminum - was wondering if that would cause problems down the road for equip such as heat exchangers

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I can tell you that Saniclean will etch aluminum slightly at no-rinse levels. I blow it through my kegs and taps when I am kegging and left it overnight in a one gallon aluminum pitcher when I was done. When I poured out the Saniclean after about 16-odd hours, the inside of the pitcher was noticeably oxidized. That's not too surprising, but it does underline what AHS says.

Anyway, I have written both Five Star Chemicals and also Blichmann Engineering for their advice and will post what they reply. I suspect I will be pumping Iodophor through mine. Not a problem, but I would rather use Saniclean because it is always laying around in my brewhouse somewhere.

Got a reply from Five Star re: Therminators:


Hi Jon,

Quick question that I bet you have answered a few dozen times already:

I am the proud owner of a Blichmann Therminator plate chiller, and was wondering if you could answer a question I have not found and answer for:

I prefer to use Starsan and Saniclean products in my brewhouse, and would love to use the stuff inside my Therminator as well. Are these products safe to use inside the Therminator w/o damage if mixed to no-rinse levels? I especially like using Saniclean in this application and would definitely prefer to not use Iodophor if at all possible.

i have both from but i favor star san

I have used Iodophor exclusively for over two years. I have used it for that long only because I saw it was cheaper than Star-San. Then I joined this forum and read that you can store and reuse Star-San for months. Can't do that with Iodophor. I just bought my first bottle of Star-San yesterday. I haven't used it yet, so I can't give my opinion on which I prefer.

The fact that Iodophor stains equipment doesn't matter. Who cares if your equipment is stained. As long as it is clean and produces quality beer, don't fret. No one who drinks it will even see the stained buckets and tubing, nor care.

I bought Iodophor because it was there, and I remembered seeing it mentioned in a positive light here. Then I listened to about 9 hours worth of brewing podcasts while I drove to and from my ranch for a depressingly unsuccessful end-of-general-season deer hunt. The (one of the, anyway) dude from Five Star was on and did a pretty in depth conversation about both cleaning and sanitizing. I'll use up this bottle of Iodophor and if Star San happens to be available when the Iodophor needs replacing, I'll have no qualms about using either - which was the general message sent by those with far more knowledge about the chemistry of these two chemical cleaners than I'll ever need.

Use the right concentration, sanitize, and get your beer on.

I like Star-San; for its non-staining properties, and I use it to clean my wood stove cast-iron humidifier as well. As soon as you pour it in, it immediately starts to remove mineral/scale buildup. Try it, you'll love it!

I use star san almost exclusively. I don't fear the foam, and I have gotten to the point that when I am draining out a carboy, when you get to the last bit giving it a swish to create a whirlpool will pull most of the leftover foam out. Same with getting it out of bottles. Also don't gurgle the liquid. The only thing is that it creates too much foam when you are using a sulfiter to clean bottles.

I use it for bottling, brew day, and other tasks. Although since I have aqcuired a CFC, i got some iodophor for that, to leave it in the chiller when not in use since star san can apparently be corrosive if left for periods of time. So far so good.

I only have used B-T-F Iodophore. Cheap, and does the job. I have never had sanitation issues in 6 years of brewing. Did notice when first brewing that not rinsing leaves bad taste in beer, so now I rinse with city water. I figure there has to be enough chlorine in city water to keep the bacteria at bay.

Didn't vote since I have never used star san.

I just came across a really old thread where it had been established that Iodophor, when not being used for sanitation, can even be use for the starch conversion test...Star San however makes a kick a$$ paper weight when your not using it for sanitation, take that Star San

I have been using 1 step since about 1997. I recently switched to Iodaphor mainly because of cost (I brew every 2 weeks or so with friends).

Last night I mixed up some in one of my 5 gallon buckets in the basement and noticed pretty quickly that my eyes were burning. Once I got the bucket filled to the 5 gallon mark, the burning stopped.

I have never noticed this before, however I almost always mix this in the garage or outdoors.

Has anyone else ever noticed this? Maybe this is a case for me to switch to StarSan....

Fordude said:

I have been using 1 step since about 1997. I recently switched to Iodaphor mainly because of cost (I brew every 2 weeks or so with friends).

Last night I mixed up some in one of my 5 gallon buckets in the basement and noticed pretty quickly that my eyes were burning. Once I got the bucket filled to the 5 gallon mark, the burning stopped.

I have never noticed this before, however I almost always mix this in the garage or outdoors.

Has anyone else ever noticed this? Maybe this is a case for me to switch to StarSan....

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Never noticed that, maybe you had some residual chemical from cleaning in the bucket that reacted?

btw - i use both until I run out of one of them which seems like it will be years.

I decided to email fivestar support on this and received a reply very quickly!

You must have extremely hard (high pH) water. Iodine based products can release a vapor if the pH is above 5. I have not heard of this. Can you see the vapor, or is it just an odor? The odor is fine. If you don't like the smell, I might suggest Star San, an acid anionic sanitizer. The other 1 setp sanitizers on the market might not actually be sanitizers. They may just be cleaners, like our PBW.

Jon Herskovits
Five Star Chemicals

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He is right, the PH of our water is 7.5 right out of the tap!

Ya' gotta love the information age!