Is using a paint strainer bag better than whirlpooling?

I have used the paint strainer bag method for all my batches and am thinking of trying the whirlpool method and siphoning after chilling the wort with my IC. Is this method better as far as keeping the cold and hot break out of the fermenter? I wasn't sure if the strainer bags were fine enough to collect the cold and hot break material. If they are then all the mateial is probably going through the bag when i squeez it (the bag always gets clogged with hop material). I want to use what ever method is better for having clear beer, no chill haze. Oh and I do use whirlfloc in all my boils. Thanks!

Any suggestions/advice??

If you whirlpool you will leave the trub in the pot along with some wort. That wort is potential beer. Would you throw out a couple bottles of beer on purpose? Not me! I don't even filter it, just dump it all into the fermenter. When the ferment is over the yeast will have used any of that break material they want and the rest will settle to the bottom of the fermenter and get covered by the settling yeast. That gets left in the fermenter when I bottle.

BansheeRider said:

Any suggestions/advice??

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I'm not sure your question makes much sense here. Are you asking what is a better way to remove break proteins from the wort, a whirlpool or pouring through a paint strainer? Assuming a good hot break, followed by a fast chill (cold break), your break proteins should settle to the bottom of the kettle. Whirlpooling (if sustained) will force those proteins into the center of the kettle in a cone, allowing only clear wort through the spigot. If you can't sustain a whirlpool while the kettle empties, simply allowing the break to settle and racking from above it will do the same. I'd hesitate to say that a paint strainer would remove much of the break. IME, it'll catch the hops sludge and let most of the break material through into the fermenter.

Or, as the poster above mentioned, assuming a good hot and cold break, any break material should settle out in the fermenter (trub) and be compacted beneath the yeast cake. Break material in the fermenter shouldn't keep you from having clear beer. If your beer's cloudy, hazy (proteins), try fining the kettle with whirlfloc and make sure you get good breaks during the boil and chill.

Additionally to kill off chill haze, lagering or a prolonged time in the fridge will help clear.

I do PB/PM BIAB,& still get the floury stuff & some hop gunk at the bottom of the kettle. but I pour the chilled wort through a dual layer fine mesh strainer to get out that floury stuff from the bottom of the kettle. Makes for a bit less trub at bottling day.
But I am getting less of the floury stuff,about 50% less since I got my Barley Crusher grain mill. A more even crush helps a lot.

unionrdr said:

I do PB/PM BIAB,& still get the floury stuff & some hop gunk at the bottom of the kettle. but I pour the chilled wort through a dual layer fine mesh strainer to get out that floury stuff from the bottom of the kettle. Makes for a bit less trub at bottling day.
But I am getting less of the floury stuff,about 50% less since I got my Barley Crusher grain mill. A more even crush helps a lot.

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Not with break material. That stuff will (and should) form in the kettle. Flour is another story, you wanna limit that period. Break is protein that forms when sweet wort is boiled (and chilled), and can't be avoided by the width of the crush.

NordeastBrewer77 said:

Not with break material. That stuff will (and should) form in the kettle. Flour is another story, you wanna limit that period. Break is protein that forms when sweet wort is boiled (and chilled), and can't be avoided by the width of the crush.

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Yeah,I'm aware of that. I was refering to the fine floury stuff I got in excess before I got a proper grain mill & used a mini food processor. Less floury fine stuff from crush getting into the BK. So less gunk overall. Looks like more break material & less grain sludge in the strainer if that makes any sense...

NordeastBrewer77 said:

I'm not sure your question makes much sense here. Are you asking what is a better way to remove break proteins from the wort, a whirlpool or pouring through a paint strainer?

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For somebody who doesn't understand the question you did a pretty good job summarizing lol.....yes that is what I asked and I do use whirlfloc. Chill haze can be prevented by removing the cold break material from the beer. I was wondering what the best method was to remove that material, straining or whirlpooling then siphoning.

unionrdr said:

I do PB/PM BIAB,& still get the floury stuff & some hop gunk at the bottom of the kettle. but I pour the chilled wort through a dual layer fine mesh strainer to get out that floury stuff from the bottom of the kettle. Makes for a bit less trub at bottling day.
But I am getting less of the floury stuff,about 50% less since I got my Barley Crusher grain mill. A more even crush helps a lot.

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unionrdr said:

Yeah,I'm aware of that. I was refering to the fine floury stuff I got in excess before I got a proper grain mill & used a mini food processor. Less floury fine stuff from crush getting into the BK. So less gunk overall. Looks like more break material & less grain sludge in the strainer if that makes any sense...

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This is irrelevant in my case because I use extract in my recipes. However I will keep this in mind if and when I move to AG or PM.

BansheeRider said:

For somebody who doesn't understand the question you did a pretty good job summarizing lol.....yes that is what I asked and I do use whirlfloc. Chill haze can be prevented by removing the cold break material from the beer. I was wondering what the best method was to remove that material, straining or whirlpooling then siphoning.

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I'd say whirlpool, if you can. If you're siphoning, just letting it settle and racking from above will keep most of the trub in the kettle, but if you can get it into the center with a whirlpool first, even better.

If the goal is clarity of the brew, I'm a little surprised nobody has mentioned gelatin. There are several resources both on this forum and elsewhere that describe the process of using it as a fining.

I'm a brand new brewer so have yet to try it myself, but I intend to on an upcoming batch, and from what I've read it works really well.

Cheers!

Mozart said:

If the goal is clarity of the brew, I'm a little surprised nobody has mentioned gelatin. There are several resources both on this forum and elsewhere that describe the process of using it as a fining.

I'm a brand new brewer so have yet to try it myself, but I intend to on an upcoming batch, and from what I've read it works really well.

Cheers!

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I've heard both good and bad about gelatin. I've heard it's bad for your beer lines and keg equipment. I also heard it strips some flavor from the beer. I will be kegging a couple IPA's soon and I don't want to strip that wonderful hop flavor or aroma. Also what if I am serving beer to a bunch of vegans?

There has to be some good methods along with patience to achieve clear beer without adding a bunch of crap to the finished beer. I know patience is key, but my keg is just about empty and I just now started getting clear pints. waiting 2 months for no chill haze along with an almost empty keg is unsat.

I didn't mention gelatin because the questions posed were about kettle trub. Gelatin's an option, though IMO not a necessary one. I definitely feel that gelatin can "flatten" a beer's character to some degree, though it does produce an extremely bright looking brew. Basically what it does is bind to proteins and resins (yeah, so, hops and yeast character), solidifies and drops out. In theory, and IME in the home brews I've tasted that used gelatin, it takes flavor/aroma down with it. I've never used it myself, so I can't speak to it's effects on kegging lines, but the bottled beers I've had that were fined with gelatin had a gummier yeast pack on them so it makes sense that it'd gunk up equipment.

NordeastBrewer77 said:

I didn't mention gelatin because the questions posed were about kettle trub. Gelatin's an option, though IMO not a necessary one. I definitely feel that gelatin can "flatten" a beer's character to some degree, though it does produce an extremely bright looking brew. Basically what it does is bind to proteins and resins (yeah, so, hops and yeast character), solidifies and drops out. In theory, and IME in the home brews I've tasted that used gelatin, it takes flavor/aroma down with it. I've never used it myself, so I can't speak to it's effects on kegging lines, but the bottled beers I've had that were fined with gelatin had a gummier yeast pack on them so it makes sense that it'd gunk up equipment.

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I've never used it either, trying to avoid it if possible.

BansheeRider said:

I've never used it either, trying to avoid it if possible.

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As am I. I really don't care about clarity unless I'm entering comp., and even then appearance is only 3 points, aroma and flavor account for 22 points. As a judge, I can tell you that unless a beer is extremely cloudy and the style calls for clarity, I'm not going to give less than a 2/3 for appearance due to haze. Again, I've never used it myself, but the beers I've had that I knew used gelatin tended to be bland. Now whether that's due to the gelatin or a matter of poor recipe, I can't say.

I use a plate chiller and don't try to filter the cold break from the fermenter.
I do use whirlfloc and hop bags in the boil.

After 1-2 weeks kegged in the fridge, the beer is crystal clear. You can force carb the beer in a couple days but the beer is usually pretty green until 1-2 weeks of conditioning.

NordeastBrewer77 said:

As am I. I really don't care about clarity unless I'm entering comp., and even then appearance is only 3 points, aroma and flavor account for 22 points. As a judge, I can tell you that unless a beer is extremely cloudy and the style calls for clarity, I'm not going to give less than a 2/3 for appearance due to haze. Again, I've never used it myself, but the beers I've had that I knew used gelatin tended to be bland. Now whether that's due to the gelatin or a matter of poor recipe, I can't say.

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So, what your saying it really doesnt matter when entering in comps. what is 3 points in the grand scheme of things. However, does this matter when it comes to the overall impression of the scoring? This is worth 10 as a judge if you have 2/3 for clarity would the overall impression lose points on this as well so it could cost you points? As you can tell im interested in comps as I have entered in only 2 comps when someone turned me on to it in january of this year.

eluterio said:

So, what your saying it really doesnt matter when entering in comps. what is 3 points in the grand scheme of things. However, does this matter when it comes to the overall impression of the scoring? This is worth 10 as a judge if you have 2/3 for clarity would the overall impression lose points on this as well so it could cost you points? As you can tell im interested in comps as I have entered in only 2 comps when someone turned me on to it in january of this year.

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I guess it could affect the "overall", but if the beer's solid in every other aspect, I don't think most judges would lowball the overall because of clarity. I certainly wouldn't. It's like this, for me at least; I get the beer and the first thing I do is look at it. If it looks right, 3/3. If it's say too hazy, not enough head, etc. 2/3 unless it's terrible. Now say it is a 10a and it's brown, I may give it a 1 or a 0 depending on other aspects of the appearance. After I score "appearance", I go Aroma, Flavor, Mouthfeel, Overall in that order. By the time I get to Overall, unless the Appearance seriously hurts the brew, it's not high on my list of things to mention. If the Appearance is seriously out of whack, I may mention it and knock a point or two in Overall.

Something to consider: I know a lot of judges (myself included) who pretty much know the score they're looking to give early in tasting each beer. They'll then work the math back to that score. The Overall section is a place to make math on a scoresheet. So say your brew's really nice, spot on for the style but a tad too hazy (or lacks head retention or is too pale), you may actually gain a point in Overall, despite losing one in Appearance, if the judges liked your beer and it was otherwise a good example.

Hope that helps. Keep in mind that the vast majority of judges are home brewers, and the vast majority of the beer they judge is home brew. Make a good beer that represents the style category well, don't do anything too outta whack like use Citra in a BoPils, don't sweat the minor stuff (like perfect clarity) too much, and you'll score well. From there you can work the recipe to perfection and hunt out that 48 pointer.

NordeastBrewer77 said:

I guess it could affect the "overall", but if the beer's solid in every other aspect, I don't think most judges would lowball the overall because of clarity. I certainly wouldn't. It's like this, for me at least; I get the beer and the first thing I do is look at it. If it looks right, 3/3. If it's say too hazy, not enough head, etc. 2/3 unless it's terrible. Now say it is a 10a and it's brown, I may give it a 1 or a 0 depending on other aspects of the appearance. After I score "appearance", I go Aroma, Flavor, Mouthfeel, Overall in that order. By the time I get to Overall, unless the Appearance seriously hurts the brew, it's not high on my list of things to mention. If the Appearance is seriously out of whack, I may mention it and knock a point or two in Overall.

Something to consider: I know a lot of judges (myself included) who pretty much know the score they're looking to give early in tasting each beer. They'll then work the math back to that score. The Overall section is a place to make math on a scoresheet. So say your brew's really nice, spot on for the style but a tad too hazy (or lacks head retention or is too pale), you may actually gain a point in Overall, despite losing one in Appearance, if the judges liked your beer and it was otherwise a good example.

Hope that helps. Keep in mind that the vast majority of judges are home brewers, and the vast majority of the beer they judge is home brew. Make a good beer that represents the style category well, don't do anything too outta whack like use Citra in a BoPils, don't sweat the minor stuff (like perfect clarity) too much, and you'll score well. From there you can work the recipe to perfection and hunt out that 48 pointer.

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Thanks for the info i just sent off 4 to a comp 10 hours away from where i live. Love the feed back by others that know what they are talking about. Ive got way too mny fiends that drink coors lt and key. Hard to tell them what they are drinking instead i just watch and see if the keep on filling their glass.

NordeastBrewer77 said:

I guess it could affect the "overall", but if the beer's solid in every other aspect, I don't think most judges would lowball the overall because of clarity. I certainly wouldn't. It's like this, for me at least; I get the beer and the first thing I do is look at it. If it looks right, 3/3. If it's say too hazy, not enough head, etc. 2/3 unless it's terrible. Now say it is a 10a and it's brown, I may give it a 1 or a 0 depending on other aspects of the appearance. After I score "appearance", I go Aroma, Flavor, Mouthfeel, Overall in that order. By the time I get to Overall, unless the Appearance seriously hurts the brew, it's not high on my list of things to mention. If the Appearance is seriously out of whack, I may mention it and knock a point or two in Overall.

Something to consider: I know a lot of judges (myself included) who pretty much know the score they're looking to give early in tasting each beer. They'll then work the math back to that score. The Overall section is a place to make math on a scoresheet. So say your brew's really nice, spot on for the style but a tad too hazy (or lacks head retention or is too pale), you may actually gain a point in Overall, despite losing one in Appearance, if the judges liked your beer and it was otherwise a good example.

Hope that helps. Keep in mind that the vast majority of judges are home brewers, and the vast majority of the beer they judge is home brew. Make a good beer that represents the style category well, don't do anything too outta whack like use Citra in a BoPils, don't sweat the minor stuff (like perfect clarity) too much, and you'll score well. From there you can work the recipe to perfection and hunt out that 48 pointer.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the info i just sent off 4 to a comp 10 hours away from where i live. Love the feed back by others that know what they are talking about. Ive got way too mny fiends that drink coors lt and key. Hard to tell them what they are drinking instead i just watch and see if the keep on filling their glass.

eluterio said:

Thanks for the info i just sent off 4 to a comp 10 hours away from where i live. Love the feed back by others that know what they are talking about. Ive got way too mny fiends that drink coors lt and key. Hard to tell them what they are drinking instead i just watch and see if the keep on filling their glass.

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I hear that! I've got a lot of friends and fam that drink craft/home brew, but just as many that are hardcore light lagerers. Like I said earlier in the thread, comps are a great way to get feedback on your beers and the best stuff to pay attention to is the Overall, cuz a good judge will give you tips/feedback, and if you get the good scoresheets in a comp, the checkboxes can be really useful. Good luck in the comp!

NordeastBrewer77 said:

I hear that! I've got a lot of friends and fam that drink craft/home brew, but just as many that are hardcore light lagerers. Like I said earlier in the thread, comps are a great way to get feedback on your beers and the best stuff to pay attention to is the Overall, cuz a good judge will give you tips/feedback, and if you get the good scoresheets in a comp, the checkboxes can be really useful. Good luck in the comp!

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Ill let you know how i did