Tomorrow I'll be racking my India Black Ale to a keg and hope to harvest/wash some yeast. I used a total of 8oz. of hops in the 5gal batch, only 2 of which were pellets and contributed to the trub. I dryhopped in primary with 2oz leaf hops. Do you all think it'd be worth the trouble and would the yeast be healthy enough to make a starter from? OG was 1.072, FG 1.018. Thanks in advance.
Worth it to harvest?
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That is pretty high OG to harvest yeast form, you can do it but yeast is probably stressed.
My usual rule of thumb is to harvest under 1.070, or even 1.060 when I know that strain is tough to harvest (like wlp300) or I'll run in other difficulties with it.
My usual rule of thumb is to harvest under 1.070, or even 1.060 when I know that strain is tough to harvest (like wlp300) or I'll run in other difficulties with it.
Even if the yeasts were stressed during the fermentation wouldn't they recover once into a clean unstressing environment? It's not like their bio-makeup has changed. I thought once the stressors are removed they would perform normally, esp. a few generations downstream after a healthy step up.
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Sounds like you're going to do it regardless of what we say :cross: I say go for it and once you make a good starter from it, call it a win!
I'll give the experiment a go but I'm not the OP. I was suggesting that maybe the stress is a situational thing and the yeasts are able to recover from that given optimal conditions. I was remembering a "no secondary ferm" thread where a couple of our "elders"
washed yeasts from a month long primary or better. Some of the posts and related threads suggested that the yeasts can come back from quite a bit with time and optimal growth conditions.
I"m initiating an experiment to see if I can harvest yeasts from a commercial unfiltered wheat beer. I'll report back.
washed yeasts from a month long primary or better. Some of the posts and related threads suggested that the yeasts can come back from quite a bit with time and optimal growth conditions.I"m initiating an experiment to see if I can harvest yeasts from a commercial unfiltered wheat beer. I'll report back.
WoodlandBrew
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I think it's wort a try. Stressed yeast is more genetically different than the original strain. Under low stress yeast reproduces by budding so the child cells have almost identical DNA to the parents. Stress encourages yeast to reproduce sexually causing different DNA in the children. This can cause recessive traits to become active in the child cells making them preform different than the parents.
I just pour the slurry into mason jars and put them in the fridge to save yeast. It's worked fine for me. From testing I have done it seems that yeast washing does not improve the quality of the yeast at all. It only throws away good cells.
Here is a write up:
http://woodlandbrew.blogspot.com/2012/12/yeast-washing-exposed.html
I would be happy to test your slurry. If you are interested send me a PM.
I just pour the slurry into mason jars and put them in the fridge to save yeast. It's worked fine for me. From testing I have done it seems that yeast washing does not improve the quality of the yeast at all. It only throws away good cells.
Here is a write up:
http://woodlandbrew.blogspot.com/2012/12/yeast-washing-exposed.html
I would be happy to test your slurry. If you are interested send me a PM.
Nice experiment, good info.
WoodlandBrew
Well-Known Member
Thanks Helibrewer! It's encouraging to hear that. It makes me want to continue to take the time to write up brewing experiments.
Great read.
I always though that more attenuate cells stays in suspension longer, so depending on strain we can concentrate on layer we want (more flocculent strains have lower attenuation and vice verse).
Did you compared how they act in wort, what was attenuation/flocc?
I always though that more attenuate cells stays in suspension longer, so depending on strain we can concentrate on layer we want (more flocculent strains have lower attenuation and vice verse).
Did you compared how they act in wort, what was attenuation/flocc?
WoodlandBrew
Well-Known Member
I just read that the brewing strains of S. cerevisiae no longer reproduce sexually at all, but there was no source given. Do you have some data on that? Not questioning, I just always like to have a source! I would have guessed that the changes in yeast from stress were (mostly) epigenetic and expression-based in nature.
WoodlandBrew
Well-Known Member
I've read that yeast in general reproduces both ways, but not heard that brewers strains only reproduce by budding. Maybe I'm reading too much into what I am seeing, but some cells look conjoined. Not like groups of flocculating cells. They look like a bunch of grapes. I'll have to take a picture next time I see it.
WoodlandBrew
Well-Known Member
This is what I am seeing. It's much more clear on the scope than the image here that I took with my cell phone.
(A) Yeast Budding
(B) What looks like conjoined cells to me.
(A) Yeast Budding
(B) What looks like conjoined cells to me.
707
Well-Known Member
Is it beneficial to have a lower OG for a yeast harvest when a small amount of viable yeast is suspected? Or, another way to ask... Is it possible to have an OG that is too high for the yeast to work and multiply?
Sure. I harvest yeast all the time from my IPA and dubbel. I wouldn't try it with my quad or old ale, though. I think it was Chris White that said it's better to use fresh yeast from a bigger beer than older yeast from a smaller beer.
Many strains can ferment up to or past 10% abv. They don't really require any special treatment to take a 1.065 IPA down to 1.012. I think they are good to go for another round.
WoodlandBrew
Well-Known Member
If the beer ferments then the yeast have multiplied. At higher gravities they may multiple less, but they will reproduce. Even if you had a 1.150 wort the slurry at the end would have more cells than were pitched. For yeast propagation the golden number seems to be 1.036 or 9 degrees Plato. This is essentially the peak of the curve when looking at DME per cell produced.
707
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the info. I'm trying to harvest pacman from 2 different bombers. I used a 1/2c DME with 2c water for the starter. Boosted it once with the same mix. It been over 48 hours and I don't see any yeast. Just the grey-brown trub. There is some krausen-like material floating but it's not too impressive.
Same thing happened when I tried to harvest Chimay. Don't know if I could do anything different for a better outcome. I follow good antiseptic technique and have done other strains successfully in the past. Would a weaker OG wort solution make it easier for the yeast to get started?
Same thing happened when I tried to harvest Chimay. Don't know if I could do anything different for a better outcome. I follow good antiseptic technique and have done other strains successfully in the past. Would a weaker OG wort solution make it easier for the yeast to get started?
WoodlandBrew
Well-Known Member
Agreed. A bottle has roughly 2 billion cells in it. 50ml is a good size for the first step to get things going.
707
Well-Known Member
Ok. Thanks again. So should I dilute the current project with water or decant and try over with a weaker wort?
WoodlandBrew
Well-Known Member
That's a tough call. Adding water will decrease the osmotic pressure, but diluting will lower the already low inoculation rate. I would probably crash it for two days and decant as much liquid as I could then add more water to double the volume. I would try to end up with 50-150ml of liquid, but wouldn't want to toss out any of the cake, so it might end up larger.
707
Well-Known Member
Thank you (all). I'll work on this for a few days and try to remember to post the results.
707
Well-Known Member
I had about 2 cups (~500 mL) total harvest. Which settled nicely with cold refrigeration. So I decanted it down to the trub / yeast and split the decanted slurry in 2 jars. To one jar I added 3/4 cup (180 mL) boiled and cooled water. To the other half of slurry I added just about 3/4 cup (180 mL) wort with 15 grams (2 big tablespoons) DME.
Both jars fermented out very nicely. An both ended up with similar sized yeast cakes. So I have a lot of good harvested Pacman yeast now! Thank y'all for the input.
Both jars fermented out very nicely. An both ended up with similar sized yeast cakes. So I have a lot of good harvested Pacman yeast now! Thank y'all for the input.
WoodlandBrew
Well-Known Member
That's great! If you would like I'll test it for you for free. The you'll have a much better idea of how many cells you have.
See here for details:
http://woodlandbrew.blogspot.com/p/normal-0-false-false-false-en-us-x-none.html
See here for details:
http://woodlandbrew.blogspot.com/p/normal-0-false-false-false-en-us-x-none.html
707
Well-Known Member
Wow, thanks Woodland Brew! no kidding. free testing... very cool. can i send more than one sample? I have some other harvested yeast I'd like to know more about.
WoodlandBrew
Well-Known Member
Yes, send as many samples as you would like. I'm always curious as to how yeast preforms for others. If you can provide information on the fermentation that it was taken from it would be appreciated, but not nessiary. I see you have OG and FG listed. The others I would be interested in are IBU, and how many days after pitching it was harvested.
william_shakes_beer
Well-Known Member
To the OP; Obviously this is not an option for the present cake, but next time you do a starter try saving some of the slurrey to a container just prior to pitching. The yeasts have seen only starter wort, and presumably are at their most healthy.
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