Batch sparging confusion

I'm nearing the end of my all-grain drought, having purchased the last few items required to re-build a basic all-grain setup (cooler mash/lauter tun, immersion cooler, etc). I've decided to give batch-sparging a go, but am not sure about the best method to use. My reading of the net has revealed at least three distinct ways to do it - I was wondering if there was any reason (aside from equipment volume limitations) to prefer one over the other.

FWIW, I have a 50L (~50qt) cooler, which should hold the mash+sparge water for nearly any imaginable 23l (6 US gallon) recipe.

Method 1: At the end of the mash add all the sparge water, mix well, let sit 10min, drain
Method 2: At the end of the mash drain what you can, add sparge water, let sit 10min, drain
Method 3: Essentially method 1 or 2, with the sparge water added piecemeal (i.e. 2 separate washings, or 3, or 4, or...)

Is one way better than the others? If doing multiple washes, how do you avoid over-sparging (as there wouldn't be a continual change in gravity/pH you coudl monitor for).

Thanx

Bryan

I did my first all grain a couple weeks ago and it went great. I had 9.5 lbs of grain so I added 3 gallons of mash water. Let it sit for an hour and drained it. Collected about 2 gallons from the mash. I knew my boiloff rate was about 1.5 gallons per hour, so I needed 7 gallons for the boil to get down to 5.5 gallons if I wanted to leave a half gallon in the kettle with the trub. So I did two sparges of 2.5 gallons at 180 F.

Everything worked perfectly. I had exactly 7 gallons pre-boil and 5.5 gallons post boil. Hit my OG at 1.047 when I was shooting for 1.046. Efficiency was about 75%.

Method 2.

I've read that getting 2 equal volumes of the mash runnings and the sparge running is ideal for efficiency but there may be an advantage to doing 2 sparges. You may want to add some boiling water to the mash to increase the temperature to aid in the mash runnings from becoming stuck. It's not a mashout, but just a temperature boost to the high 150's without depleting too much of the sparge water. A few minute rest there may allow the alpha amalyse convert starches if there are any. Your sparge water can be safely heated to 175F-180F without much chance of your sparge to ever exceed 168F.

Method 1 is not batch sparging.

2 and 3 are but don't forget "stir really really well after adding the water".

If you mash slightly thinner, say 1.5qt/lb then you can limit your sparge addition to just one big one.

You also don;t have to wait after adding the sparge water. It's a waste of time. See my article in Zymurgy or www.dennybrew.com for details.

My favorite method is to drain the tun and then sparge once. I've lately started basically splitting the mash and sparge water into roughly equal amounts.

You could figure a grain to water ratio instead, and then add enough sparge water to make up your boil volume, but equal batches seems to work fine too and as Denny says, no waiting required, although I do let the grain drop a bit before I start. Usually it's like 2-3 minutes while I'm doing other things.

Doing 2 or even 3 sparges is supposed to increase you efficiency, but the very small amount of increase doesn't make it worth it in my opinion. I simply like the equal batch/mash method better.

I like to try and mash-out, which is to add 180* water to the mash until temp reaches 168* (while stirring), then vorlauf and drain, add next sparge addition, stir, drain, repeat until hitting preboil volume. I let the sparge water cool a bit after the 180* addition so that I'm not running risk of tannins when the ph changes with each sparge addition.

Unless your water is really weird, there will be no appreciable pH change in a batch sparge.

Thanks, things are already clearer.

I always mashed-out, so I didn't even think of skipping that step (usually bring a small pot of water to a boil; enough to raise to 76C). Based on what everyone here has written, for the first go I'll follow method two (minus the 10min soak, as per danny's page), at least for the first go.

One quick question about stuck sparges; one of my more commonly brewed recipes is a blue-moon-esque brew, which due to the high amount of wheat/oats was really prone to sticking. I always threw in a few handfuls of rice hulls to help, but even then, it got stuck every other batch. Some of the pages I've read have suggested that stuck sparges are nearly impossible with batch sparging - is that true, and if so, could I forgot the rice hulls?

Thanx again

Bryan

I think it has more to do with your system than the process of batch sparging. I've brewed 422 batches and I've never had a stuck runoff. But I can't conclusively say whether that's due to my equipment or my process.

I've brewed about half as many beers as you (most all-grain), and I've had 6 stuck sparges - all being the blue moon clone. It may have been my old system (10gal water cooler + phils phalse bottom); the deeper grain bed was supposedly more readily stuck than a shallower one.

Bryan

Mash out is not necessary for homebrewing due to the relatively short amount of time we take to sparge. However, you may choose to do it for other reasons, like it might make your time to get to boil a bit quicker. Some think that it makes a sparge flow better. The jury is out on that one.

I have used a drilled copper manifold that has been de-burred inside and out and have yet to have a real problem with stuck sparge. I've never used rice hulls. It really comes down to your manifold type. Some have larger or smaller openings and/or things for the bits to get caught on.

I typically start the vorlauf kind of slow to the grain bed will have a chance to sort itself out. Once it's settled a bit I can crank the flow without worry.

What kind of manifold system do you use?

Yep, based on that, I'd say it was a system issue. My experience is that false bottoms are more prone to stuck runoffs than a braid (calm down, FB users!) and that a deeper grain bed exacerbates the situation.

Homercidal said:

Mash out is not necessary for homebrewing due to the relatively short amount of time we take to sparge. However, you may choose to do it for other reasons, like it might make your time to get to boil a bit quicker. Some think that it makes a sparge flow better. The jury is out on that one.

Click to expand...

I found with my old continual-sparge system that it gave me an extra 2 points or so efficiency (or, at least, efficiency went up when I started doing it - it may have been improved competency that arose at the same time). I also had a few brews whose final character was improved once I added the mash-out; basically they kept more body, presumably due to stopping amylase activity.

Homercidal said:

I have used a drilled copper manifold that has been de-burred inside and out and have yet to have a real problem with stuck sparge. I've never used rice hulls. It really comes down to your manifold type. Some have larger or smaller openings and/or things for the bits to get caught on.

I typically start the vorlauf kind of slow to the grain bed will have a chance to sort itself out. Once it's settled a bit I can crank the flow without worry.

What kind of manifold system do you use?

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Its under construction, but I was planning on it being a slotted copper manifold. Maybe I should drill it - what diameter holes did you use?

Thanx

Bryan

Warthaug said:

I've brewed about half as many beers as you (most all-grain), and I've had 6 stuck sparges - all being the blue moon clone. It may have been my old system (10gal water cooler + phils phalse bottom); the deeper grain bed was supposedly more readily stuck than a shallower one.

Bryan

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Use rice hulls with wheat, oats, etc

Denny said:

Unless your water is really weird, there will be no appreciable pH change in a batch sparge.

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The 2nd and 3rd batch should be less acidic, right? As the concentration of wort decreases?

tre9er said:

Use rice hulls with wheat, oats, etc

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I was.

Bryan

I used this method and it worked great

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/hybrid-fly-sparge-technique-75454

I used a 12 oz ladle I got off eBay for $6.75. It made it very easy

tre9er said:

The 2nd and 3rd batch should be less acidic, right? As the concentration of wort decreases?

Click to expand...

If you're doing 2 or 3 batch sparges, we need to talk.....

Denny said:

If you're doing 2 or 3 batch sparges, we need to talk.....

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It has more to do with the size of my tun. It's only 6.5g. so with grain I can't run much sparge water into it. I run off first runnings then have to do almost two full sparge additions to get to preboil.

I see Denny already chimed in - I would suggest going to the Beersmith podcast page and listen to the interview of him regarding batch sparging - you'll get all his thoughts and some good info there.

drklingman said:

I see Denny already chimed in - I would suggest going to the Beersmith podcast page and listen to the interview of him regarding batch sparging - you'll get all his thoughts and some good info there.

Click to expand...

Myself, I'm not doing 2 batch sparges because I think its awesome to do so...I simply can only fit so much water in my mash tun at a time. For clarity

tre9er said:

It has more to do with the size of my tun. It's only 6.5g. so with grain I can't run much sparge water into it. I run off first runnings then have to do almost two full sparge additions to get to preboil.

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That's what I was afraid of. Any plans to replace it with something larger?

I don't get it. Why is it not ok to batch sparge with 2 separate sparges? I collect my first runnings from the mash, say 2.5 gallons and then I sparge with like 2.5 gallons twice getting my total preboil of 7.5. I also wait 10 mins before running off. I read that link you posted and didn't see an explanation as to why it doesn't matter to wait that time. I thought we were letting the grain bed reset. I'm all confused now. :-/

Denny said:

That's what I was afraid of. Any plans to replace it with something larger?

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Perhaps, but swmbo is already not pleased with how much I have spent on my hobby.

This is a good discussion! I was wondering this my self as I did my first all-grain last weekend. When I put my recipe into Beersmith it splits it into two sparges and for some reason I couldn't make it into just one.

I have a 50 qt converted Gatorade cooler. It's awesome.

I researched the hell outta this prior to converting said cooler and building a CFWC. I settled on the method espoused by BYO contributor and brand spankin' new brewery owner Jamil Zainasheff (Mr. Malty himself).

I mash at 1.5 qts/lb per the recipe's recommended temp. Then I'll add near boiling water until the mash is 168ºF. I'll let it rest for 5-10 minutes. I'll run about a gallon of vourloff and then drain it directly into my kettle. I have a ready supply of 170ºF water in a second kettle (my old tamale pot I used to do extract batches in). I measure how much wort I retrieved from the tun and then batch sparge with however much 170º water I need to achieve my pre-boil volume.

Batch sparge as in I dump it in, stir it, let it rest for about 5 minutes, do another vourloff, and then drain into my kettle.

I've done about 99% off my AG batches this way. The other 1% is going to happen this weekend when I experiment doing a parti-gyle.

docrmarten said:

This is a good discussion! I was wondering this my self as I did my first all-grain last weekend. When I put my recipe into Beersmith it splits it into two sparges and for some reason I couldn't make it into just one.

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Do you have your equipment setup properly in Beersmith, also you can look into the Mash Profiles. http://www.beersmith.com/help2/mash_profiles.htm

vince805 said:

Do you have your equipment setup properly in Beersmith, also you can look into the Mash Profiles. http://www.beersmith.com/help2/mash_profiles.htm

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Thanks. As soon as I changed my mash tun volume it fixed it.

panicbuttonguy said:

I don't get it. Why is it not ok to batch sparge with 2 separate sparges? I collect my first runnings from the mash, say 2.5 gallons and then I sparge with like 2.5 gallons twice getting my total preboil of 7.5. I also wait 10 mins before running off. I read that link you posted and didn't see an explanation as to why it doesn't matter to wait that time. I thought we were letting the grain bed reset. I'm all confused now. :-/

Click to expand...

I'm generally confident in saying that Denny's position is that there is no appreciable benefit to batch sparging with more discrete infusions (over one). Other than the time and effort in doing so, there is also no harm unless you use so many small infusions that the grain never really gets fluid. There is a very small increase in efficiency with 2 sparges over one, but it's in the realm of 3-4% and for most won't make the extra work worth it. If your tun can't handle one large infusion, no worries.

Alright, a few more articles and podcasts behind me, and I think I'm ready to go. But a few last questions before I built my MLT:

1) Is it correct that with batch sparging, grain bed depth isn't overly important - i.e. I could by a large (47qt) cooler big enough to do big beers, and still make lighter ales/etc with 5-8lb grain bills without a huge loss of efficiency? I know with my past fly-sparging setup that grain bed depth was important, so this seems a little counter-intuitive to me.

2) I was planning on building my manifold out of 3/8" copper (based roughly on this design), but I see some use PVC to save $$$. Is there any noticeable decrease in efficiency (or other negatives) of PVC versus copper?

3) I know with batch sparging you need to mix the sparge water really well with the grain. But I also assume you need to be careful, to avoid hot-side aeration. Any tricks/hints on how best to do this (mixing time, etc), or am I just paranoid?

Thanx, yet again, for all the good advice

Bryan

Warthaug said:

Alright, a few more articles and podcasts behind me, and I think I'm ready to go. But a few last questions before I built my MLT:

1) Is it correct that with batch sparging, grain bed depth isn't overly important - i.e. I could by a large (47qt) cooler big enough to do big beers, and still make lighter ales/etc with 5-8lb grain bills without a huge loss of efficiency? I know with my past fly-sparging setup that grain bed depth was important, so this seems a little counter-intuitive to me.

2) I was planning on building my manifold out of 3/8" copper (based roughly on this design), but I see some use PVC to save $$$. Is there any noticeable decrease in efficiency (or other negatives) of PVC versus copper?

3) I know with batch sparging you need to mix the sparge water really well with the grain. But I also assume you need to be careful, to avoid hot-side aeration. Any tricks/hints on how best to do this (mixing time, etc), or am I just paranoid?
Thanx, yet again, for all the good advice

Bryan

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1. Correct. The only issue I can see is a loss of heat during a mash in a big cooler. Not really a problem, especially if you have a well insulated mash tun, and it won't affect the sparge at all.

2. No, but use cPVC, not the regular PVC. cPvc is ok for hotter temperatures (food safe).

3. HSA is not an issue with stirring the sparge well. You want to stir very well before vorlaufing and draining. I'm not sure HSA is an issue at all in homebrewing, but that's for another discussion!

panicbuttonguy said:

I don't get it. Why is it not ok to batch sparge with 2 separate sparges? I collect my first runnings from the mash, say 2.5 gallons and then I sparge with like 2.5 gallons twice getting my total preboil of 7.5. I also wait 10 mins before running off. I read that link you posted and didn't see an explanation as to why it doesn't matter to wait that time. I thought we were letting the grain bed reset. I'm all confused now. :-/

Click to expand...

Dozens of experiments have proven to me that the very small increase you _might_ get in efficiency from multiple sparges just isn't worth my time or efforts. Likewise, waiting after adding the sparge water is completely unnecessary. I've tried dozens of time variations, from waiting 30 min. to immediately running off the sparge. There was absolutely no difference in the beer so why spend the extra time?

docrmarten said:

This is a good discussion! I was wondering this my self as I did my first all-grain last weekend. When I put my recipe into Beersmith it splits it into two sparges and for some reason I couldn't make it into just one.

Click to expand...

Keep in mind that Beersmith is just a tool for you to use. Don't confuse it with brewing instructions. Multiple batch sparges are something I've discussed with Brad before, even when I was guest on his podcast. I wish he would make that an option to be used in special circumstances, not the default method.

fargo234 said:

I have a 50 qt converted Gatorade cooler. It's awesome.

I researched the hell outta this prior to converting said cooler and building a CFWC. I settled on the method espoused by BYO contributor and brand spankin' new brewery owner Jamil Zainasheff (Mr. Malty himself).

Click to expand...

Why take batch sparge instructions from a guy who doesn't batch sparge?

Bobby_M said:

I'm generally confident in saying that Denny's position is that there is no appreciable benefit to batch sparging with more discrete infusions (over one). Other than the time and effort in doing so, there is also no harm unless you use so many small infusions that the grain never really gets fluid. There is a very small increase in efficiency with 2 sparges over one, but it's in the realm of 3-4% and for most won't make the extra work worth it. If your tun can't handle one large infusion, no worries.

Click to expand...

Correct, Bobby. The other thing to be aware of that the more batch sparges you do, the more likely you are to dilute the pH buffering power of the grains.

Homercidal said:

Mash out is not necessary for homebrewing due to the relatively short amount of time we take to sparge. However, you may choose to do it for other reasons, like it might make your time to get to boil a bit quicker. Some think that it makes a sparge flow better. The jury is out on that one.

I have used a drilled copper manifold that has been de-burred inside and out and have yet to have a real problem with stuck sparge. I've never used rice hulls. It really comes down to your manifold type. Some have larger or smaller openings and/or things for the bits to get caught on.

I typically start the vorlauf kind of slow to the grain bed will have a chance to sort itself out. Once it's settled a bit I can crank the flow without worry.

What kind of manifold system do you use?

Click to expand...

Did you solder the joints or just friction fit them together?

Alright. On our next batches we're not going to wait the 10 mins. We're just going to wait the time it takes to vorlauf. I think we're going to experiment with the 2 sparges vs. 1 and see what we get. Thanks for the responses and letting me hijack your thread for a bit Warthaug.

Kaiser has an interesting analysis on batch sparging here:

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.ph...Analysis#Effect_of_the_relative_run-off_sizes

I agree that the small efficiency gain from multiple sparges isn't worth the time and trouble.

Bobby_M said:

I'm generally confident in saying that Denny's position is that there is no appreciable benefit to batch sparging with more discrete infusions (over one). Other than the time and effort in doing so, there is also no harm unless you use so many small infusions that the grain never really gets fluid. There is a very small increase in efficiency with 2 sparges over one, but it's in the realm of 3-4% and for most won't make the extra work worth it. If your tun can't handle one large infusion, no worries.

Click to expand...

In my 6.5g. MLT I can get way more than 1.25qts/lb of strike, sparge, etc. Now, that's for medium gravity beers. I already know I'm losing a lot of efficiency if I start making high-gravity beers as my ratio goes way down. Right now I'm in the 70's on efficiency and the next time I don't screw something up with the mash I'm feeling confident I'll be near 80%.

I have to admit though, it's crossed my mind now that I have two e-kettles that I could do a nearly 10g. batch (probably about 8, split boil) if only my MLT was large enough. I've seen the marine cooler in the 12.5g. size for about $30 at walmart and that got me thinking.