Sauerkraut Starter Gose

Yakima 728
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SmCranf said:
never trust an air lock, always trust science! gotta refractometer around?
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No, just a hydrometer. I'm talking about looking into the bucket, though, where the thin, filmy pellicle is intact and without a single bubble. I know fermentation is happening. I'm just not sure whether there's any yeast active. It wouldn't be the worst thing, I don't guess, but this thing's going to come out extremely tart with only bacteria in it.
 
My starter took off yesterday, probably because my roommate used the foreman grill next to it. Sorry for the blurry pic, phone has been sketchy lately.

IMG_3110.jpg
 
Nice! So you're building up a starter from brine placed in wort? I had pretty good success doing that with a berliner weisse I made recently.
 
SmCranf said:
never trust an air lock, always trust science! gotta refractometer around?
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Took a sample today, and we're down to just under 1.030, or a 1 point drop in 10 days. I haven't tasted it yet. It's in the refrigerator chilling.
 
I poured in some brine and kraut, gonna let it sit around until sunday and kettle sour either an oud bruin or berliner.

Since you're dropping gravity points do you think there are other bugs in there? or you have a culture of lacto that ferments and sours?
 
SmCranf said:
I poured in some brine and kraut, gonna let it sit around until sunday and kettle sour either an oud bruin or berliner.

Since you're dropping gravity points do you think there are other bugs in there? or you have a culture of lacto that ferments and sours?
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I wish I had the faintest clue, honestly. In the spirit of farmhouse brewing, I'm going to keep at this until I find something that works. Maybe I'll do a science along the way.

It's my understanding that lacto p., present in a stage of a typical sauerkraut fermentation, is homofermentative, but if I said I had lacto p. in my beer, it'd be a complete WAG.

I tasted the sample, chilled, last night, and it's getting really tart. It's possible that the culture I have will eventually finish the beer completely, but I'm considering pitching some US-05 to knock out some sugar so it doesn't turn into an acid bomb.
 
burninator said:
I wish I had the faintest clue, honestly. In the spirit of farmhouse brewing, I'm going to keep at this until I find something that works. Maybe I'll do a science along the way.

It's my understanding that lacto p.[i/], present in a stage of a typical sauerkraut fermentation, is homofermentative, but if I said I had lacto p. in my beer, it'd be a complete WAG.

I tasted the sample, chilled, last night, and it's getting really tart. It's possible that the culture I have will eventually finish the beer completely, but I'm considering pitching some US-05 to knock out some sugar so it doesn't turn into an acid bomb.
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Whats your method on keeping this culture for future use? I want to do that to mine, and I'm guessing you don't want a mixed culture with 05 to mess up anything in the future.
 
SmCranf said:
Whats your method on keeping this culture for future use? I want to do that to mine, and I'm guessing you don't want a mixed culture with 05 to mess up anything in the future.
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I have a jar of wort fermented with a few drops of the brine from a previous batch of kraut. It sours really nicely, and I'm happy with that culture. I've used it in two beers already, with positive results.

As for preserving the culture, I'm not sure of the biology behind it. I think that lacto (and whatever other bugs I might have) rise and die in phases. I might transfer this to another bucket in hopes of saving the slurry, just to see what survives. I mixed them together in my berliner, and like you, I didn't think the slurry would be worth saving.

I do know that often you'll read that you should save some brine from a batch of sauerkraut to use on future batches. It gives you a boost, to be sure, but you sacrifice diversity, and thus, complexity. I assume it's the same with wild beer made this way.
 
I transferred this to a secondary fermenter tonight. Smelled and tasted nice and tart...way better than the last one. I dropped in a large pitch of US-05 slurry from the centennial blonde I bottled a few weeks ago. I'll check back in on it in about two weeks.
SmCranf said:
Whats your method on keeping this culture for future use? I want to do that to mine, and I'm guessing you don't want a mixed culture with 05 to mess up anything in the future.
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To answer your question, here's the lacto/whatever slurry I took from the bottom of the bucket.

View attachment 1439169024470.jpg
 
Yesterday I finally noticed some airlock activity, three days after racking to secondary and pitching US-05. If I get close to the bucket, I can hear a fizzing, like a freshly poured Coke, but a peak inside reveals no krausen at all. It's bubbling away, lively, but there's just a sparse layer of bubbles on top.

I'm guessing the kraut brine acidified my wort so thoroughly that there's no structure left to form foam. :ban:
 
I still have my starter sitting on the bar....need to find a time to mash in and do my kettle sour...
 
SmCranf said:
I still have my starter sitting on the bar....need to find a time to mash in and do my kettle sour...
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You get around to this yet?

My latest batch has been in secondary for 15 days (4 weeks total fermentation) now. I'll likely go ahead and bottle this week, if I can find the time.
 
burninator said:
You get around to this yet?

My latest batch has been in secondary for 15 days (4 weeks total fermentation) now. I'll likely go ahead and bottle this week, if I can find the time.
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this weekend is the only time i have for it, ill report back for sure!
 
Agate said:
Starter is inoculated with pickle brine. Not much going on yet, but there's a decent microbial haze already. I'm expecting to see some CO2 generation in a day or two, but nothing yet.

View attachment 298822
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I'll be interested to know how it does. First batch bubbled like a regular fermentation. Second batch never bubbled at all until I added yeast to secondary.

From the size of your starter, it looks like you're doing a full batch?
 
No, that's just a 1-quart starter. It's on day 2, still no activity but there is definitely a population of bacteria growing in there that is settling at the bottom. There are some persistent bubbles around the edges of the liquid line, looks like the start of fermentation but I don't really see anything going on inside the wort. Odd.
 
Agate said:
No, that's just a 1-quart starter. It's on day 2, still no activity but there is definitely a population of bacteria growing in there that is settling at the bottom. There are some persistent bubbles around the edges of the liquid line, looks like the start of fermentation but I don't really see anything going on inside the wort. Odd.
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I have a culture I pulled at the beginning of the summer that I keep on the counter. From time to time, I add a bit of wort. The jar turns cloudy for a few days, then crystal clear. When it's done, there's a layer of sediment, and the wort is very sour.
 
My gose is resting quietly in secondary. Action stopped some two weeks ago, but I'm just looking for an opening to bottle it. I figure stretching secondary to 4 or 5 weeks won't hurt anything.

In the meantime, here's a shot of my first attempt at a Berliner weisse. I brewed this back in May using the culture mentioned in the post above. That culture came from the same batch of sauerkraut as my first failed gose, but I pulled it later in the fermentation cycle.

View attachment 1441153760941.jpg

It's tart without being overly sour, like a nice white wine. I dropped an ounce of German hops in the mash, which was heavy on the wheat. Probably couldn't be happier with this beer. I hope I can recreate next time I brew it.

Don't be afraid to culture bugs from non-traditional sources. You just might find a gem.
 
Agate said:
Here's my pickle brine starter next to a "clean" starter I got going tonight. Can't believe I'm using a sacch-only culture. The pickle brine dropped brilliantly clear! Haven't taken a gravity reading yet, but I think I'll decant and step it up again before pitching into a real batch.

View attachment 303688
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Wow! Have you tasted it?
 
Back from the grave update: Plan on brewing a lemon lime kettle sour berliner with my sauerkraut bugs in the next couple weeks. My list of brews has finally shortened and I have time for the fun stuff now :tank:
 
I finally took a look at the latest batch tonight. I really need to bottle it soon, while it's still bright and tart. The closet it's in now smells of coriander and bright lactic acid. I can hardly wait to drink it.

View attachment 1444526273146.jpg
 
This thread is very insightful.

I attempted to make my own sauerkraut and failed miserably. By day 4 the smell coming from the fermenting (rotting) veggies is so foul I can barely manage to keep it from turning my stomach. There is no way that I emulated a pure lacto fermentation. I am gonna chalk this one up to science and try a sour mash instead.

:(
 
specharka said:
This thread is very insightful.

I attempted to make my own sauerkraut and failed miserably. By day 4 the smell coming from the fermenting (rotting) veggies is so foul I can barely manage to keep it from turning my stomach. There is no way that I emulated a pure lacto fermentation. I am gonna chalk this one up to science and try a sour mash instead.

:(
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Sorry to hear it didn't work out. Were the vegetables submerged the whole time? Just like with a sour mash, it's important to prevent oxygen exposure.

I like to make a gallon batch and time it so that I'm brewing as the sauerkraut finishes. If you're interested in making kraut more for the souring culture, let me recommend fermenting in a quart jar. You can use a shot glass and a rubber band to keep the cabbage pressed down.
 
burninator said:
I got around to bottling this last evening. I let it go way longer than I planned to, at about 3 and a half months, but I don't think the beer was hurt by it.

This version is bright, citric, dry, with a little salt on the finish. Oh, and it's fantastically, devastatingly tart. I think I'm going to be really sorry I only got 15 bottles of the stuff.
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Sounds interesting - do you get any of the vegetable flavour?
 
slym2none said:
Sounds interesting - do you get any of the vegetable flavour?
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I sampled an early bottle a few days ago, and I didn't notice any. I'll pop a bottle tonight, but really the brine carries with it a salty, sour flavor, but not really any notes of the actual kraut, in my experience.
 
specharka said:
This thread is very insightful.



I attempted to make my own sauerkraut and failed miserably. By day 4 the smell coming from the fermenting (rotting) veggies is so foul I can barely manage to keep it from turning my stomach. There is no way that I emulated a pure lacto fermentation. I am gonna chalk this one up to science and try a sour mash instead.



:(
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Here's how I make mine. http://www.wildfermentation.com/making-sauerkraut-2/

Always delicious. Some people say they don't get much pellicle/mold on top. I always get a lot. Looks disgusting. I scoop that away and everything under the liquid is good to go.
Here's what's left of my current batch. 2-1/2 weeks on the counter during warm temps. Napa cabbage, carrot and jalapeño slivers and radishes.
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1447973034.084836.jpg
 
Well, here's the finished product. I think it cleared up really nicely.

I definitely got a good souring culture for this one. It's refreshingly sour, bright, citric, a little funky on the nose. Very effervescent (over carbed a bit), and more clear than I expected after two weeks in the bottle and 24 hours in the refrigerator. It's incredibly dry. I can't wait to drink this again when my cold is gone, and I can fully taste it.

I'm not quite prepared to call this just right, but I'm definitely very happy with this beer.

View attachment 1447984572724.jpg
 
Finally checked on my dill pickle starter today. Hardly any attenuation, hydro still reads about 1.044. But, that's just fine with me! Even though there isn't much gravity drop, the hydro sample is puckeringly tart, even with all the residual sugars.

I stepped it up again as it has a distinct dill pickle taste, hopefully this gets diluted out. But, it's got some real potential!

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1448822705.771107.jpg
 
So, I've started a kraut-based starter mixed it into a 1.044 10 ibu wort (half pils/half wheat extract, with some Belgian chocolate, and rolled oats, shooting for a Lambic type ale).

I let it go for a week fermenting at about 80f. After a week I have NO sourness, just bready, funky, but clean tasting/good smelling fermenting wort. I then pitched saf05.

Any idea why I would have NO detectable sourness?
 
That would be due to the 10 IBU. Lacto is very hop intolerant. Best to avoid hops entirely when using lacto to sour.
 
Well, that me backup a little. I started this project with an unhopped wheat wort, with Sauerkraut bugs, One gallon total volume. I then racked a 1 gallon 9-ibu pilsner wort on top of the wheat.

I was expecting a sour flavor with the solo unhopped wheat. It actively fermented for a few days prior to mixing: the sample was a funky and bready, but no bite.

It's still shaping up to be a very palatable beer, just no sour flavors.
 
Sounds a bit like my first try at this. I added Saaz hops to about 8 IBU. I had a good fermentation, and the beer dried out over time, but all I got was funk and Belgian-like esters...mostly just banana. It'd make a decent table beer, if not for the lack of hop flavor/aroma and the slightly salty finish.
 
It's about time to revive this project. I'm going to scale it up to a full 5 gallon batch, using the grain proportions from the second batch, and the salt and coriander proportions from batch 1. As batch 2 continued to dry out in the bottle, the salt became very apparent. It wasn't off-putting, but it was around the level of Gatorade, and I thought I could lighten it up a little.

I have a batch of kraut I'm about to start, but it will have radishes, and I just don't know if I want to risk that flavor carrying over into my beer.

Has anyone else had a chance to experiment with this? I'd love to be able to draw on the experience of the community.
 
I'm so glad you're starting this up again as I've just this week been thinking of doing the same thing. It'd be great if you could share the recipe you're planning on using and then plan of action to create sauerkraut and then inoculate the batch. PM me if you don't want to lay it all out here. I'll do a parallel batch along with yours and see how it turns out.
 
Sure thing.

First, the sauerkraut:
3 lbs of cabbage, chopped/sliced. I like mine thin but in longer pieces. Think 3/4" to 1 1/2" long.
1.5 to 2 tbsp non-iodized salt. I use sea salt. Kosher salt works great, as well.
1 green apple, peeled and chopped.
1 tbsp caraway seeds (optional, but oh so tasty)

Massage all this together in a large mixing bowl until it's nice and juicy, then press into a jar or ceramic crock. Really massage it in there. I use my fist and a pestle to press it down tight. It's critical that it is packed in so that the brine, formed by the salt drawing out the cabbage's natural water content, covers the cabbage. Any cabbage left above the level of the brine is at risk of going mushy or moldy. Not good, especially if we're brewing beer with this stuff.

Use a plate, quart jar filled with water, or a freezer bag full of salt water to hold everything down and prevent oxygen getting in. Just like with beer, oxygen is the enemy. Put the kraut in a dark place at room temp. No need to expose it to heat. In fact, that will make your kraut funky and soft. We want acidic and crunchy.

I'll probably let mine go 10-14 days. The first experiment went about a week, and that wasn't long enough. The second went about 10 days. Even though that one yielded no yeast, the souring culture was awesome.
 
Pictures are always fun. Here is some kraut in the making. I go with quart jars as I don't need a crap ton of kraut. I use a smaller pint jar with water as a weight.

[edit] dumb phone and it's sideways picture. Also this one uses red and green cabbage, hence the red/pink color.

View attachment 1455994894137.jpg
 

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