Invert Sugar - Creation, Use, Flavor, Etc.

I've been looking at a lot of historical english ale recipes lately, and it seems like most, if not all use invert sugar in one form or another. I've even seen some articles suggesting that some type of simple sugar is almost a necessity for a true british ale. Read some of the articles at this link for more info: http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/search/label/invert sugar . I just used the recipe found here : http://www.unholymess.com/blog/beer-brewing-info/making-brewers-invert to make up some no. 2 invert sugar. It tastes really nice, but has a bit of a sourish, acidic twang. I'm wondering if anyone has created invert sugar like this before (using an acid and constant temp, not DAP and varying temps) and if there are any methods to alkalize it after inversion. I'm thinking about something along the lines of adding CaCO3 to raise the pH and get it to lose the twang and bring out some of the other flavors? Does anyone know how it is made commercially? Do they neutralize it or leave it acidic? My plan is to use it in a triple chocolate stout and between the cocoa and the invert sugar, I'm afraid it will be too "twangy" and not smooth and creamy.

I'd like for this thread to not only be used to answer my questions, but to stockpile any knowledge or experience with invert sugar. I'd like to keep the subject on british invert sugar, not belgian candi syrup since that has been discussed at length. Any information, experience, comments, or whatever is welcome.

all you need is table sugar, water, and lemon juice. for clear invert sugar, don't bother. use sugar. 4 cups sugar, 1 1/2 cups water, 1/4 teaspoon lemon juice. Bring to a boil. Then simmer for 1/2 to 2 hours, stirring occasionally, depending on clear, light, or dark invert

I don't have answers to your technical questions, but I made some the other day using this
http://www.chefeddy.com/2009/11/invert-sugar/
I brought the temp, up to around 350f and got a nice amber colored syrup.

KingBrian - that unholymess.com link is mine, glad you found it. The information there mostly came from Shut Up About Barclay Perkins, with help from one of the recipe authors as well. I've never had the acidic twang before - what type of sugar & acid did you use? What amount in how many pounds of sugar solution?

As for neutralizing the pH... if it really is too much acid as a problem, I know there are some references to the major invert producers adding chalk (CaC03) - but I don't have a good link for the amount.

lumpher: Damnit No, table sugar is not going to give you the right end product. See <a href="http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2009/06/refined-sugar-vs-invert-sugar.html"> here</a> The only way you can make use of inverted white can sugar is via the dilution method with good blackstrap molasses.

Hey unholy, thanks for posting. I made my batch with 1 lb of sugar, mostly turbinado, but I ran out at about 0.8 lbs and used demerara for the remainder. I mixed it with 2 cups of water and a little under half a teaspoon of 88% lactic acid. I cooked it for an hour and 45 minutes, trying to hold the temp at 140, but having it occasionally rise to over 150. I didn't get any burnt flavors though. The acidic twang isn't too bad, but it is very similar to what I get when I make belgian candi syrup with DAP and white sugar. Reading some of the recent posts on attempting belgian d2 syrup made me thing that neutralizing the syrup could be how the belgian producers got the bottom notes in their product. I feel like neutralizing it would reduce some of the bright flavors and bring out more of the deeper flavors. I wasn't sure how commercial makers do it and I'm not even sure what the commercial products produced in England taste like, but the hunch I have is that they might neutralize it like you said.

I wonder if you made a typo there - did you really mean 140/150? If so - that might not be hot enough to really get to the right spot. Most data I've seen recommends 240F.

unholymess said:

I wonder if you made a typo there - did you really mean 140/150? If so - that might not be hot enough to really get to the right spot. Most data I've seen recommends 240F.

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Oops, yep I meant 240 and 250. My bad. I also did not use the corn syrup, since if I managed to invert the sugar correctly, it shouldn't recrystalize. So far it hasn't.

Subbed.

Ok, I'll bite. I figure since I spend so much time brewing English ales, I might as well start making my own invert syrup instead of buying it. Can anyone tell me how theirs has come out in the final product or any other tips on making it?

I just bought 2.5 lbs of demerara today and will try to make some tomorrow.

I'll bite on this as well. it sounds like the sort of sugar you want to use for this is sold around here has "evaporated cane juice" which is quite a bit lighter than turbinado or demerara, but certainly not as white or refined looking as the normal C&H sugar and other refined sugars you buy in the store (http://www.multipleorganics.com/images/products/65.jpg) is the sort of color it is.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51WxPQkoBUL.jpg is what I've seen in the health food stores and the "organic/health-nut" part of my local grocery stores. However, it is sold in the mexican market for far cheaper as "zulka" or Azucar Morena. http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3288/2903559653_819effc170.jpg I'll try to make some of this later, but this really sounds like the type of sugar we're looking for here.

Reading that stupid Barclay Perkins blog has planted a seed in my brain about this as well. I might as well get started on it.

I just watched Alton Brown's caramel show twice, and the use of an acid (rather that a shot of glucose) in the pot while boiling candy syrup (sucrose) to prevent crystallization is mentioned briefly. I don't have lactic, so I was planning to use cream of tartar, like this guy:

http://www.chefeddy.com/2009/11/invert-sugar/

I am curious about the time-temp relationship, as I don't really know what makes the "color" in the brewer's invert so ofter mentioned on Shut Up About Barclay Perkins. I don't know how hot they took it, how long they cooked it, or (maybe more importantly) how refined the sugar they started with was. I have made simple syrup for (cocktails, etc.) from Demerara in the past. At a 1-to-1 ratio of sugar to water, and with only a minute of boiling, it turned out quite dark.

So, I assume the long boil at 240 is supposed to keep the glucose and fructose intact, but brown the fructose thoroughly--if so, why not a higher temp/shorter time?

Perhaps a 90-120 minute boil would require less acid to invert sufficiently, and thus avoid KingBrian's twang?

Perhaps the use of less-refined sugar would allow for a shorter boil and thus avoid KingBrian's twang.

Perhaps KingBrian's twang was a fluke?

I guess we just don't quite have enough information about the brewer's invert to reproduce it faithfully. Apparently they used either enzymes or a very strong acid to accomplish "inversion," but where did the color come from?

corncob - we know from articles posted on Barclay Perkins the sugar source was demerera and not cane sugar. We also know the color targets from the Ragus data. Both links are at the bottom of my page (http://www.unholymess.com/blog/beer-brewing-info/making-brewers-invert).

As for why a lower temperature and longer time... it is to avoid any burnt or roasty flavors that would be totally inappropriate. I don't think that has anything to do with the amount of lactic required or the aforementioned twang - I think they are something local to KingBrian. The color comes from pyrolysis - the breaking down of those organic sugars.

I'm not sure what more data you are looking to see. The process I've recorded there has been used to create all 3 invert sugars that come quite close, if not match, the commercial products from Ragus and others.

The process I've recorded there has been used to create all 3 invert sugars that come quite close, if not match, the commercial products from Ragus and others.

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So you never got the twang? What do you think that's all about?

What do you think about using cream of tartar instead of lactic acid? Where in the world did you get lactic acid, and what else do you use it for?

(Also, I only call the Barclay Perkins blog "stupid" because it has drained so many hours away from my life lately.)

No, never any twang. I'm not sure what that is... Any acid will work, you should be able to use cream of tartar just fine.

I use lactic to adjust sparge water, drop mash pH, etc. You should be able to get it from any reasonable homebrew shop - I get it from Northernbrewer and/or Midwest.

I see. I'll try to dig this thread back up in a few weeks when I try your method and post my results for the curious.

By the way, you seem to be connected with the Barclay Perkins folks in some way. Everything written there seems so familiar in tone, but I feel like I stumbled into the room and have started listening in on a conversation already in progress. I have no idea who these guys are and what they are doing. Is Ron an author? Where does he get all these old records? Is Kristen just some homebrewer with a lot of time on his hands? What in the world is a "brewer's quarter?" What is different about the time spent "mashing" and the time spent "letting stand?" Et cetera. I can't stop reading, nor can I get my bearings.

Somebody needs to write the wiki article on this phenomenon.

I know Kristen, he and I are in the same homebrew club (SPHBC). I've been following Shut Up About Barclay Perkins for quite some time now, such a fantastic insight into historic brewing.

Ron (Pattison) is "the" author. Kristen England is one of the most winning homebrewers in the last 5 yrs, and a general good guy and pain in the ass. Google them both for more infor.

The old records come from the brewing logs of those old UK breweries. For the others, well - you'll need to keep digging. That is half the fun!

So partially-refined sugars like demerara/turbinado are what one should use? Is there any benefit to using muscovado (unrefined, darker natural brown sugar)? I have an ESB coming up this weekend and if appropriate, would like to try making some for it.

I already have cane sugar and molasses on-hand, is there any difference in the final product using the dilution method?

I would think muscovado would be too much - almost like molasses. For the dilution method, you want to make sure you have a good molasses. One with a licorice flavor and not a burnt sugar flavor. There shouldn't be much difference in the final product - quoting Kristen England here:

"A mate of mine and I spent the better part of a month talking to very large producers of invert syrup to get the entire process and their thoughts on making it ourselves. Tons of great information that has solidified what we are doing at BP. Basically, the point was that you need to choose a very high quality blackstrap molasses. One that has a licorice character rather than bitter sugar. Once you choose your blackstrap, stick with the brand. Although there are fluctuations from batch to batch, there are much bigger differences between brands. A very simple blend with simple invert syrup is done on the specification of what number invert you are looking for. Its based on the color of the molasses but according to the invert syrup scientists, high quality blackstrap varies little compared to other molasses as to get the licorice character one needs to have a very similar practice. What we want to be able to do is make a reproducible product ourselves.
I made each invert as specified and had them analysed. Invert #1, #2 and #3 were 26, 68 and 124EBC respectively."

Thanks unholymess. You are a gentleman.

Bought some Sugar In The Raw yesterday. There were a few other brands that were called 'natural brown sugar' but based on the labels I couldn't be sure they were 'less refined' sugar as opposed to refined cane sugar with molasses added.

I don't have any corn sugar but I plan to use it the day after I make it so hopefully crystals won't be an issue.

Made syrup #1 last night. Took a while for it boil down enough to get the temp up but it finally got there, it got up to maybe 242* F or so. Damn this stuff is uber sweet. It's pretty thick too, maybe a little thicker than honey.

I was going to try 10 oz (5%) in the batch of ESB (5 gal).

How is the flavor? I'm going to make up some more no.2 to use in an ordinary bitter next week. That should give me a better idea of how it works in a beer than the triple chocolate stout I put some in. In that beer it is completely overshadowed.

I only tried a little from the back of a spoon and it was very, very sweet...but I had had a few beers by then. I brought some to work and intend to try it in my afternoon tea (I usually use Orange Blossom Honey), hopefully I'll have a better idea of the flavor (other than intense sweetness).

No1 isn't going to add a ton of flavor, more a subtle fruitiness. No2 is akin to English Crystal 75L, but without any of the roastiness. So - just the lovely fruitiness. Not sure how to describe No3, but No2 and darker

I really enjoyed them in bitters - really adds that extra dimension.

I bought demerara yesterday. So I'll be trying it out soon. Unholy, what is a typical bitter recipe for you? When using, say, #2 invert, how much do you use, and do you use any crystal at all? What else goes in there besides English pale malt? Do you still mash fairly low, or can the beer get too thin with a whopping dose of cane sugar?

I'll be making my first batch of no 2 invert tomorrow morning. I've always just used the commercial stuff that you find in bakery supply stores and have had good results with it. Hopefully my batch will turn out pretty well.

Well I finally got around to making a batch invert syrup this morning. I was aiming for no.2 invert but I'm pretty sure I fell short of that. I was able to maintain a stable temp of around 140F for one hour, but the syrup was reducing too fast and was getting really sticky without darkening very much. The color looks about 9-12 SRM, though the flavor is extremely sweet and somewhat fruity. Also, it appears my stuff inverted properly as there are no crystals but it is about twice as thick as molasses and at room temperature becomes impossible to pour without heating it up. Did I screw this batch up?

It should be fine, you just evaporated more water out of it. Next time you can keep adding little bits of water during cooking to keep it at the right consistency.

I came up with a great name for the standard bitter I am going to make with the no. 2 invert, looked it up, and dammit if someone else hadn't already used it. Whatever, I'm still going to use it. Anyway, here's the recipe I'll be doing:

Bog Standard Bitter
OG 1.038
IBU 31
SRM 9

2750 g (6.06 lbs.) Maris Otter
300 g (0.66 lb.) Simpson's Crystal 55
250 g (o.55 lb.) Invert No. 2

Northern Brewer @ 60 min to 31 IBU
14 g (0.5 oz.) Goldings @ flameout

Mashing @ 151 for 90 minutes

Fermenting with wyeast 1318

I'm shooting for a very simple, traditional recipe that should showcase the invert sugars flavor and take on a bit of its color.

And isn't the name awesome? Bog standard is british-speak for something very plain. And it is a plain, simple, no frills recipe. Standard bitter is of course the type of bitter. Bog Standard Bitter. Too bad someone is as smart as me and came up with it already.

bierhaus,
The #1 syrup I made was also quite thick and doesn't look that much lighter than yours. I think mine topped out at 242* F or so. Whatever temp it boils at determines how thick it will be (I was just a hair shy of 'firm ball'), next time I'll dilute it with some water to get the boil temp down to 230* F or so (or whatever soft ball is). You can always heat it up and add some water. IIRC, my first syrup (just caramelized syrup) boiled at ~220* F and was a bit too thin.

In order to add it to the boil I just used tongs and dunked the whole mason jar in the boil, filled it, dumped the watery stuff; repeated about a bazillion times until the jar was clean.

KB that's not too far from the ESB I just brewed (same yeast even) except I added a half pound of wheat, half pound of home-toasted pale ale, and bigger all-around. That is a pretty cool name, a lot better than #134. I think I mashed too high but we'll see what the FFT says when I get home.

SpanishCastleAle said:

bierhaus,The #1 syrup I made was also quite thick and doesn't look that much lighter than yours. I think mine topped out at 242* F or so. Whatever temp it boils at determines how thick it will be (I was just a hair shy of 'firm ball'), next time I'll dilute it with some water to get the boil temp down to 230* F or so (or whatever soft ball is). You can always heat it up and add some water. IIRC, my first syrup (just caramelized syrup) boiled at ~220* F and was a bit too thin.

In order to add it to the boil I just used tongs and dunked the whole mason jar in the boil, filled it, dumped the watery stuff; repeated about a bazillion times until the jar was clean.

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Thanks for the info! I plan on making another batch pretty soon to rectify my first attempt. The stuff I made has become so hard, it's like concrete - not looking forward dunking my mason jar a million times in the wort! Though I put some in my coffee this morning and it tastes pretty darn good.

I had a special bitter recipe already planned to test out the no.1 but after some consideration it I think I'll go super simple with something like 85% MO, 5% C40, and 10% No.1 invert to see what flavors the sugar adds. I got a hold of some Thames Valley II on a slant recently, so I'll give that a try. Anyone have any experience with this yeast?

I'm making another batch of invert no. 2 right now and have uncovered a few things. First of all, I've been tasting it through the whole process. The twangy kind of thing didn't show up until about 45 minutes or so into the hold at 240. I think that is a sign that the "twang" I'm getting isn't from too much acid, but rather something that develops as the sugar cooks.

Secondly, I think maybe the words "acidic" or "twang" I used earlier might be a little misleading. It's not a mouth-puckering or lemon juice kind of sourness, but a light, fruity brightness. Tasting it today I took some time to try to better figure out the flavor and it is actually a lot like the brightness you get from a tart apple or some other fruit. Not sour, just bright. I did notice last time that the brightness seemed to fade a bit with storage and a richer, deeper caramel flavor seemed to come out.

Made my second batch of No.2 last night and I'm pretty sure I got it mostly right this time - for one thing I ended up with no.2 and not another batch of no.1. Didn't have temperature problems and the syrup is about as pourable as honey, with good flavor. I compared it to some c80 and the flavors are pretty similar, with no twang.

Now it's time to brew with it...

bierhaus15 said:

Made my second batch of No.2 last night and I'm pretty sure I got it mostly right this time - for one thing I ended up with no.2 and not another batch of no.1. Didn't have temperature problems and the syrup is about as pourable as honey, with good flavor. I compared it to some c80 and the flavors are pretty similar, with no twang.

Now it's time to brew with it...

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Do you not get any tart apple "brightness" from it?

KingBrianI said:

Do you not get any tart apple "brightness" from it?

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I'd guess you could say there is some fresh apple notes in there, but it's more of a crisp, dark caramel sweetness than tart fruity flavor. Tasting the two, I definitely think my first batch has some dry tartness in it, as it seems as the sugar has retained some of its raw qualities. The second batch has a more mellow flavor and you can tell the sugars have been cooking for some time - it sorta reminds me of a (sweet) dark rum. My second batch took me 2 hours on the stove.

Good to hear the 2nd batch turned out better! No2 for me is *very* similar to English Med Crystal (70-80L), but without the chocolate/roasty notes.

I have been using this in mostly historic recipes from Barclay Perkins like these:
http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2009/08/lets-brew-wednesday-fullers-1962.html
http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2010/11/lets-brew-wednesday-1928-barclay_18.html

As for the flavors - I get no tartness at all, even for No1. I get syrupy sweet apples and light fruits, moving to more caramel, plum, figs, raisins and the like as you get darker. Always super sweet, never tart.

My first attempt at "invert sugar" was in the BP blog's 1955 XXX Mild:
http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2010/03/lets-brew-wednesday-1955-whitbread-xxx.html

I used DAP and acid with dark brown sugar in mine with a 2 hour simmer/boil without temp control. To be honest, next to the 5% crystal 70-80L in this recipe, I really didn't notice a contribution from the sugar, flavor-wise. I used Nottingham and the beer did have apple fruit notes to it and I suppose a tartness, but without having brewed an appropriate comparison, my opinion isn't worth much.

I have brewed with Thames Valley II and liked it despite my experiences - if that makes sense. Unfortunately I didn't put it through a series of similar beers so my attenuation was a bit inconsistent and had some issues trying to get the beer to finish. With my limited experience it seemed sensitive to a few degrees drop after the main fermentation in chewing off the last several points. I did manage to ferment one beer warmer 68-70 and remembered that the esters in a way unbalanced a lightly hopped beer. Beers mashed 155F seemed to have a full mouthfeel whereas something cooler might be more appropriate, all depending. An IPA with about 15% sugar seemed to make it lazy at the end of fermentation (repitched with Notty at bottling help create carbonic bite gushers).

bierhaus15 said:

I had a special bitter recipe already planned to test out the no.1 but after some consideration it I think I'll go super simple with something like 85% MO, 5% C40, and 10% No.1 invert to see what flavors the sugar adds. I got a hold of some Thames Valley II on a slant recently, so I'll give that a try. Anyone have any experience with this yeast?

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I've decided to formulate the bitter I'll be brewing this weekend more like what you describe here in order to let the invert sugar play a larger role in the flavors.

Bog Standard Bitter
OG 1.038
IBU 31
SRM 7.8

2775 g Maris Otter
340 g Invert No. 2
140 g Simpsons Med Crystal (55L)

NB hops to 31 IBU at 60 min.
14 g Goldings at flameout

Wyeast 1318

That should provide a nice canvas for the invert to shine. I'm really looking forward to trying a beer with that 1318 too.

Recipe looks good - pretty much the same as mine. I am really excited to see how this homemade invert syrup compares to the commerical stuff I've been using. Though unfortunately my starter with the thames valley II is not looking very healthy and it sorta smells off. It was a really old slant to begin with and I'm not going to risk getting a bad bad batch from it.

WY1318 is my new favorite yeast for low gravity bitters and milds. It is mildly fruity and leaves a wonderfully soft malt profile that finishes just a tad sweet even though it attenuates pretty well. It does well with hops too.

Well between better than expected efficiency and the sugar being thicker (and thus having a higher potential) than I calculated for, my ordinary bitter came out a special bitter. No big deal. The 1318 is pitched and the batch is sitting in the fermentation freezer at 64. I'll set the freezer to 68 later tonight to let it free rise to that temp, where I'll hold it until fermentation is over.