Hop Impact of First Wort Hopping

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Jamo99

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My understanding of FWH is that it accomplishes a number of things. Better hop utilization, a 10% increase in the number of IBUs compared with a (60) addition, and a smoother overall bitterness. Some additional reading indicates that the hop flavor partially gets "locked in" during the steeping time, and remains after the boil, even though one would think that the boiling process would get rid of the flavor components.

How much of the flavor is maintained? I ask because I FWH for the second time yesterday and have not tasted my first attempt yet. My second attempt I grabbed the wrong hops from the fridge though, not worried about it, just curious. I had meant to FWH with liberty, but grabbed amarillo.

I know this rye pale ale will work well with amarillo...because I have a different rye pale ale on tap right now dryhopped with 2 oz of amarillo :rockin:

Edit: I guess by hop impact, i really meant flavor impact. D'oh!!
 
FWH is the $hit..... I love doing this to alot of different styles, especially IPA's. My favorite hop for this method has got to be Magnum.
 
I've read that you can approximate your FWH alpha acid utilization as if it were a 20 minute boil, but you definitely get more flavor. I use the 20-minute rule and experience good results.
 
Denny Conn had some samples analyzed and the results
Quote from Denny
" In a split batch I did, one with only FWH Cascades and the other with the same amount of the same hops at 60, the analyses of 2 different labs showed the FWH beer to have on average 10% more IBUs. Blind traingle tasting done both here in Eugen and by Jamil Z. in CA, each with a combo of homebrewers, pro brewers and BJCP judges showed remarkably little ability to tell a difference between the 2 and a slight preference for the FWH beer. Personally, I use FWH often (dozens, maybe hundreds of times) and tell myself that it _tastes_ (and bitters) like a 20 min. addition, so dammit, that's what I'm callin' it!

Dan, if that's how you perceive it, that's the right way to do it! Again, when I reduce the bittering to compensate for the FWH, I do it only as much as a 20 min. boil addition would add. That's not a lot.
 
a 20 min addition isn't so high that FWH can replace 60 min additions if you are going to for a high IBU finish though, right?

also, FWH go in when the grains are done steeping but before the boil or do they go in when the grains first go in?
 
Some additional reading indicates that the hop flavor partially gets "locked in" during the steeping time...

I always FWH. You can also mash hop. IMHO, it provides a much smoother bittering effect.

You better lock it up!
No you better lock it up!
No, you better lock it up!

Name that movie...
 
a 20 min addition isn't so high that FWH can replace 60 min additions if you are going to for a high IBU finish though, right?

also, FWH go in when the grains are done steeping but before the boil or do they go in when the grains first go in?

I don't know- I've only done it with all grain. I think if you were doing it for extract brewing, it wouldn't the same. If you added the hops before the extract, your bittering would be different due to the low SG of the wort at that point. You'd have better hops utlization, so I think the bittering wouldn't be as smooth, and it would intensify the bittering, if that makes sense. I've never heard of FWH for extract brewing- but someone must have done it and would be able to answer the question.

When I FWH, I put the hops in with the first runnings, and it steeps in there until I add the second runnings and start to bring the wort to a boil. So, the first runnings have a high SG- maybe that's why the bitterness you get is smoother? I don't know- that's just my guess.
 
a 20 min addition isn't so high that FWH can replace 60 min additions if you are going to for a high IBU finish though, right?

also, FWH go in when the grains are done steeping but before the boil or do they go in when the grains first go in?

I don't know- I've only done it with all grain. I think if you were doing it for extract brewing, it wouldn't the same. If you added the hops before the extract, your bittering would be different due to the low SG of the wort at that point. You'd have better hops utlization, so I think the bittering wouldn't be as smooth, and it would intensify the bittering, if that makes sense. I've never heard of FWH for extract brewing- but someone must have done it and would be able to answer the question.

When I FWH, I put the hops in with the first runnings, and it steeps in there until I add the second runnings and start to bring the wort to a boil. So, the first runnings have a high SG- maybe that's why the bitterness you get is smoother? I don't know- that's just my guess.



SRFeldman79, I believe it is time to do Partial mashes. FWHopping does not work with steeping
 
I'm wondering why, if what niquejim says is true, ProMash automatically DROPS your IBU's by a few points if you go from, say, 60 mins to FW. What's up wit dat?
 
I always FWH my bittering hops.

FYI - on First Wort Hopping


Posted to Homebrew Digest #1989, 3/20/96,
by Dave Draper
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Dear Friends, with the recent interest in First Wort Hopping, I thought I would provide this summary of the article in Brauwelt that was mentioned in George Fix's original post. To answer a recent question regarding the wording in Jim DiPalma's posts: First Wort Hopping refers to adding the hops to the kettle as the wort is sparged into it--the hops sit there soaking in the runnings for the entire time the runnings are collected. They continue to sit in the wort as the boil is commenced.
This summary is just from my reading of the article (The rediscovery of first wort hopping, by Freis, Nuremberg, and Mitter, Brauwelt IV:308, 1995; copy supplied to me by Andy Walsh) and is not meant to be comprehensive; but I hope that is useful to some of us. Any errors in understanding the content of the article are mine. I am sure we will all have lots to talk about on this subject; I'm only trying to provide what the original article had to say (in Readers Digest form). I'll do it in sorta outline form.

1. Introductory material. First wort hopping (FWH) was used extensively at the start of the century but mainly in order to enhance bitterness rather than aroma. It was recognized that the higher pH of the *wort* (as opposed to later in the boil) had a positive effect on utilization, combatting the effects of losses from coagulation on break material. The higher pH of the first runnings enhances isomerization of alpha acids. Other attempts were made to actually hop the mash (!!); other early efforts involved running the sparged wort through a hop filter--a "hop front" instead of a hop back, I guess...DeClerk steeped the hops in 50C water before adding to the wort (to remove "unpleasant" stuff); a later worker used 70C water. Both reported enhanced aroma qualities.

2. The experiments. Two different breweries produced the test brews that make up the subject of this article, Pils types. The two breweries make a slightly different version of Pils. At each brewery, the FWH beer was brewed with a reference beer alongside. The FWH and Reference beers at each brewery were done under controlled conditions, identical ingredients, pitching rates, etc., and differed only in the way they were hopped. In both test breweries, hops were dumped into the boiler once its bottom was covered with wort; no stirring--they just sat there while wort was sparged on top of them. Brew A (total hopping: 13.0 g alpha acid per hectolitre of cast wort) was first-hopped with 34% of the total amount added--Tettnang and Saaz that were typically used in aroma additions at the end of the boil under normal conditions. Brew B (total hopping: 12.2 g alpha acid per hl wort) used only Tettnang, but 52% of the total hop amount was used as First Wort Hops. No aroma hopping was done in either brew.

3. Tasting panel results: the FWH beers were overwhelmingly preferred over the reference beers in triangular taste tests (i.e., each taster was given three beers, two of either the reference beer or the FWH beer, and one of the other, and had to correctly identify which two were alike before their preference results were incorporated in the database). 11 of 12 tasters of each beer preferred the FWH beer. The main reasons given for the preference: "a fine, unobtrusive hop aroma; a more harmonic beer; a more uniform bitterness."

4. Analytical results--bitterness: The FWH beers had more IBUs than did the reference beers. Brew A: Ref beer was 37.9 IBU, FWH beer was 39.6 IBU. Brew B: Ref beer was 27.2 IBU, FWH beer was 32.8 IBU. This should come as no surprise, since more hops were in the kettle for the boil in the FWH beers than in the Reference beers. Prior to fermentation, the worts from both breweries showed the following features: the FWH wort had substantially more isomerized alpha acids, but less non-isomerized alphas. This was particularly true of Brew B, which had a higher proportion of first-wort hops. Nevertheless, the bitterness of the FWH beers was described as more pleasing than the (slightly weaker) bitterness of the reference beers.

5. Analytical results--aroma: For the aroma compounds, very distinct differences were measured (gas chromatography) in both the identities and concentrations of the various aromatic compounds between the FWH beers and the reference beers. Because the precise nature of the effects of aromatic compounds on beer flavor are very complicated, it cannot be said with certainty just why the various measurements resulted in the overwhelming tasting preference, but clearly something is going on here. Even though the reference beers had higher *absolute amounts* of most of the aroma compounds, again the FWH beers got higher ratings for overall pleasure.

6. Final comments: each brewery needs to experiment with its own setup for determining what sort of first-wort hopping is best for it. But the alpha-acid quantity should *not* be reduced, even if one gets more bitterness than one would get in the usual way. The tasting panel results seem to indicate that the bitterness in the FWH beers was fine, and mild--i.e. there is little harshness that can appear in a highly bittered beer. If the hops are reduced to compensate for the extra IBUs one gets from the first-wort hops, then the whole benefit of doing it might be lost. The recommendation is to use at least 30% of the total hops as first- wort hops--basically, this means adding the aroma hops as first-wort hops rather than late kettle additions (at least for my setup, and I suspect for many others' too).

That's my quick 'n' dirty summary. I found the article quite readable, aside from the parts where the technical info is too far afield for me to make much sense of it (e.g. the gas chromatography results). Hopefully this will give a baseline that interested readers can refer to for what will undoubtedly be a fairly extensive discussion of this topic.

One quick comment: Bob McCowan mentioned, quite correctly, that the above commentary applies to infused beers--in decocted beers, comparatively little break is formed in early part of the boil, so one needs to consider this. If I read the Brauwelt article properly, infusion beers were the only ones being discussed.
 
I always FWH. You can also mash hop. IMHO, it provides a much smoother bittering effect.

You better lock it up!
No you better lock it up!
No, you better lock it up!

Name that movie...



Wedding crashers ftmfw!!!:rockin:
 
i do partial mash sometimes, i guess i should have said before, during, or after mashing...
 
I'm wondering why, if what niquejim says is true, ProMash automatically DROPS your IBU's by a few points if you go from, say, 60 mins to FW. What's up wit dat?


By what I understand IBU's are up, but percieved bitterness is down due to the fact that it is smoother. If that makes any sense
 
I don't understand why ProMash drops the IBUs either, but I read that it's approximately a 10% increase in IBU's compared to the 60 minute addition.

I can wrap my head around the smoother bitterness aspect and the better hop utilization based on the pH/SG/temperature, but the aroma portion is still throwing me for a loop. I've read that writeup before Biermuncher and I guess the answer to my question is that it is really friggin' complicated and to just be happy that it works so well.

niquejim, it's funny that you mention Denny Conn because it's actually his recipe that I was doing. I had never done his Rye IPA before and I have a bunch of jars of washed "Denny's Fav 50" yeast that I figured it was about time to try his much lauded recipe. Of course I nonchalantly toss in the hops, look at the bag, and realize before the pellets even start disintigrating that I made a boo-boo. I personally think that the additional bitterness and aroma given by the amarillo will work great with the recipe.

Like I said, this is only my second time FWHing. The first I just moved my bittering addition in my IPA to FWH, but have yet to taste the results. Next time I do my IPA I'm thinking maybe 75% of the bittering additon as FWH and 25% at 60, just to try blending the different bitterness feels.
 
BYO has a Hobgoblin recipe that utilizes FWH for extract w/grains. I will be giving a partial mash version of this recipe a try with a FWH addition this weekend.
 
This is an older thread but I am still confused. For instance, If I was going to have 1oz amarillo as a 60 minute boil, but I am doing a 90 minute boil, and I change the amarillo to FWH, the software makes my 1oz an equivalent of a 20 minute addition?
If there is a more recent reference, please post a link.
-Ben
 
This is an older thread but I am still confused. For instance, If I was going to have 1oz amarillo as a 60 minute boil, but I am doing a 90 minute boil, and I change the amarillo to FWH, the software makes my 1oz an equivalent of a 20 minute addition?
If there is a more recent reference, please post a link.
-Ben

Analytically it's the equivalent (if not more) of a full boil IBU addition. The flavor perception is the equivalent of a 20min addition.
 
Bumping an older thread yet again, cause I wanna understand. Let's say I have a recipe that calls for a 60, 30, and 15 min addition. If I want to FWH and get the same profile, just smoother, or "more pleasant", would I move both the 60 and 15 to FWH? Only the 60? Only part of one? Or both? Or all 3?
 
When I FWH, I use late additions. I usually put in a 20-30 minute addition as a FWH. A lot use their 60 min. I don't think there is any hard rule, just try it. but be sure you do, cuz I love it personally. While this is revived, I have been thinking about doing an all FWH brew. Pale/IPA, all centennial with maybe 3-4 oz as FWH and no other additions. I'd be curious if anyone else has tried this and what they found. At the least, it should be able to tell me about flavor/bitterness of FWH'ing...
 
I have been thinking about doing an all FWH brew. Pale/IPA, all centennial with maybe 3-4 oz as FWH and no other additions. I'd be curious if anyone else has tried this and what they found. At the least, it should be able to tell me about flavor/bitterness of FWH'ing...

If anyone has done an ALL FWH beer, then I believe that quite a few people would be interested in the results. If you do one, then let us know Leapdop.
 
A while back i did an IIPA with the bittering hops as FWH. I still followed up with a 15min and 5min addition.

It was very smooth, and a great beer, but I was disappointed in that (though it finished around 1.010) the overall taste impression was sweet. Moving the bittering hops to FWH took the edge off, but in that aspect i think it was a detriment because i was looking for that big, bitey hop presence FWH'ing took away.

It isn't going to keep me from doing it again, though. It's just going to make me plan ahead better and better understand First Wort Hopping to begin with.
 
I'm your man.

I did an all FWH IPA. It was 70 IBUs but I would bet money you couldn't tell. It was closer to an APA if you can believe that. VERY smooth, not one bit of harshness anywhere to be found. Very drinkable. My first drunk post was because of this beer (search Party Like it's Tuesday). Just kicked the keg the other night.

What I discovered was that you get all 3 characteristics from the hops in FWH; bitterness, flavor & aroma. I definately would not hesitate to try an all FWH beer.

:mug:
 
Bumping an older thread yet again, cause I wanna understand. Let's say I have a recipe that calls for a 60, 30, and 15 min addition. If I want to FWH and get the same profile, just smoother, or "more pleasant", would I move both the 60 and 15 to FWH? Only the 60? Only part of one? Or both? Or all 3?

Move the 15 to FWH and leave the others as they are.

As to why you drop the IBU even if they calc out higher, it's because you're drinking the beer, not measuring it! Due to chemical changes that happen in FWH, the bitterness doesn't drink like it's 10% more....it actually tases like it's about 2/3 less. At least to my tastebuds.
 
So would it be desirable to increase the amount of FWH used by 2/3 to keep a similar profile? I'm definitely going to have to do some experimental batches.
 
I have done a Red Ale that had only one hop addition, at FWH. It was about 25 IBUs worth (according to beersmith, not set to FWH, so no +10%) and didn't quite taste like it was. Really good however, next time I'll set it to a 40min addition, because it didn't quite have the bite I wanted it to.
 
Try a fuggles FWH in an ESB and you'll understand what it's all about, one of my tastiest brews was done this way. Speaking of which, I need some of those hops. Anyone know of a good place to order a pound or two- preferably whole?
 
Just to throw my experience in there, I use FWH primarily for flavor. I throw it in for my first runnings and leave it in until I've about reached my boil, at which time I remove it. It makes everything nice and smooth and is perfect in my roggenbier.

I use bittering hops for bittering in straight 60 or 90 minute additions. I don't find that FWH adds a true "bitterness" if you use it all by itself. I calculate IBUs for FWH as if they were 20 minute additions.

I usually don't worry about late additions, however, when I'm not using FWH and concentrate on the bittering of my 60 minute additions. 20 minute additions don't add much in the way of bittering and I find promash calculations to be misinformative. FWH WILL add some, tho, so I calculate it as a 20 minute.

Confusing, no?
 
Denny makes a good point on only moving the late addition hops. FWH, as I understand it from reading different articles, is this:

Move only late hop additions to FWH
Do not use this to replace BITTERING hops
Use about 30% of your total hop bill
If possible, use noble or low AA (finishing) hops, as there is increased utilization with a FWH.

Do not use this to replace bittering hops if you are looking for a hoppy beer, as stated, the perception of those IBUs, is different.

Somehow FWH went from moving only late addition hops, to it being a replacement for bittering hops, which is not what the texts I have studied made it out to be.
 
Move the 15 to FWH and leave the others as they are.

As to why you drop the IBU even if they calc out higher, it's because you're drinking the beer, not measuring it! Due to chemical changes that happen in FWH, the bitterness doesn't drink like it's 10% more....it actually tases like it's about 2/3 less. At least to my tastebuds.


Agreed, in ProMash I changed the utilization factor for my FWH additions. It calculates the bitterness as a 20 minute addition. This is important for the reason Denny pointed out, we arent measuring it, we are drinking it. Who cares if it is 50 IBUs if it tastes like 35 IBUs. To formulate a recipe you need to know what will be percieved, becuase in tasting, perception IS reality.
 
<~~~~Look HERE FWH in the kettle while sparging.

I FWH most everything. I just put my fist hops (the bittering) in the boiler when or before I start to sparge. I made an Oatmeal stout that way with only those hops and it was awesome. Enough bitter for that beer, and a little aroma/flavor.

I do it all the time. I change nothing else. If I want 30, 20, 10 or 5 minute additions, I use em.

But I guess I am different.

It works for me.

I read that HBD post when it was written and have been using FWH ever since.

The last beer I brewed was a Fat Tire clone that did not call for FWH and I was trying to hit the nail on the head, so I didn't use FWH. It was odd not having the hops in at the actual start of the boil. A little easier to keep from boiling over and I scooped the hot break out like I did waaay back before I read about it in the HBD.

To each his own, but please try it once and see how the beer tastes.

One more thing.... Just take a whiff of the hops and first runnings in the kettle. Its the best! MMmmmm

David :)
 
I also find that by FWH my beer, it cuts down on my boil overs by providing a "bubbble cutter" if that makes sense. FWH is something I really like to do, but it isn't a bitter replacement. In fact, I don't use it to replace anything. It brings its own flavor and needs to be used as yet another choice in the arsenal!
 
I mean, I need to clarify... it is your beer, you can replace the bittering hops with a FWH if you like.

I am pretty much referring to some complaints I have heard from people that claim thier FWH beers are not as bitter, when in fact they have replaced the bittering hops with a FWH. That is the reason for the lack of bittering perception. IBUs dont equal bitterness with a FWH as they do with a typical bittering addition.
 
Who says that it creates as many IBUs anyway? Just because promash or beersmith says something doesn't make it true. Whether it's "perceived" bitterness or real bitterness, who knows if it is even a correct assumption?
 
Who says that it creates as many IBUs anyway? Just because promash or beersmith says something doesn't make it true. Whether it's "perceived" bitterness or real bitterness, who knows if it is even a correct assumption?

Apparently this can be measured, and has been, it is not a theoretical value, it is a physical thing.
 
Yes, true. At the same time though Pol, some might have more ability to taste the bitterness in both FWH and MH. So then they make a "less" bitter beer to balance it for their taste and we taste it and think it is too sweet or malty. I don't get more bitter from a FWH, I gte a more floral character. But that is just me so, meh.
 
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