High Altitude Fermentation Times...

I brew at 7000 feet. My brother brews at 0 feet. We use same yeast, recipies etc generally. But my fermentation takes 3 weeks to get to FG. His take 9 days. Brewing around 68 degrees.

OG usually around 1.056. Takes 3 weeks to get down to 1.015. Beer tastes good.

This is with all types of yeast and beers. I have done about 40 batches and tried extra aeration to no aeration. I have tried no nutrients to some yeast nutrients. Fruit beers, beers with all sorts of combos. I always pitch around 75 and temp drops to around 68 next day and ferments hard core a few days before slow down. But then it takes 3 weeks to complete. I have used Dry yeast from coopers. I have used Wyeast and White labs. Yeast activator from white labs gets really puffed out like a fat baloon so I know the yeast is healthy.

Does higher altitude cause longer fermentation time?

yes, I live at 6600 and I have noticed a slower time from when I ferment in the valley at 2500 feet. You have brought up a good point.

Do you make starters? Does your brother make starters?

What ambient temps between you and your brother?

I brew at 7,000 ft as well; and usually have no problem getting to FG in ~5-10 days. When I use liquid yeast, I always make a starter....

Think it has anything to do with oxygen density in the atmosphere being less at altitude?

d_striker said:

Think it has anything to do with oxygen density in the atmosphere being less at altitude?

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Not if you make a good starter...

Primary phase usually takes me around a week for that OG, I'm at 8500, I'd look elsewhere.

Gremlyn1 said:

Not if you make a good starter...

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Those are two different issues.

Even if your yeast count is good and viable, there may not be as much oxygen saturated in the wort at altitude compared to sea level.

d_striker said:

Those are two different issues.

Even if your yeast count is good and viable, there may not be as much oxygen saturated in the wort at altitude compared to sea level.

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A well made starter, such as on a stir plate, once pitched should require little to no oxygen dissolved in the wort to effectively grow the yeast required to ferment. Pre-oxygenating the yeast in the starter and then just pitching the starter without oxygenating your wort should yield good fermentation results no matter what altitude. I imagine using stir plates and making good starters could be more critical at higher altitudes where the air is thinner, as the stir plate helps to ensure that the yeast in the starter gets plenty of oxygen. Here is a little 'light' reading for you on the subject: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/crabtree-effect-over-aeration-128187/

Not the topic is still unclear to home brewers, but I've made plenty of starters on a stir plate and pitched them without shaking or stirring my wort past the splashing that occurs when I pitch the starter and had great success with attenuation and yeast growth. It also helps to cold pitch a decanted starter, but that's a different topic

Gremlyn1 said:

A well made starter, such as on a stir plate, once pitched should require little to no oxygen dissolved in the wort to effectively grow the yeast required to ferment. Pre-oxygenating the yeast in the starter and then just pitching the starter without oxygenating your wort should yield good fermentation results no matter what altitude. I imagine using stir plates and make good starters could be more critical at higher altitudes where the air is thinner, as the stir plate helps to ensure that the yeast in the starter gets plenty of oxygen. Here is a little 'light' reading for you on the subject: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/crabtree-effect-over-aeration-128187/

Not the topic is still unclear to home brewers, but I've made plenty of starters on a stir plate and pitched them without shaking or stirring my wort past the splashing that occurs when I pitch the starter and had great success with attenuation and yeast growth. It also helps to cold pitch a decanted starter, but that's a different topic

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Great info. Thanks.

What if you don't have a stir plate to make a starter? Do you think that oxygen levels in the wort created by shaking/stirring would vary depending on altitude?

d_striker said:

Great info. Thanks.

What if you don't have a stir plate to make a starter? Do you think that oxygen levels in the wort created by shaking/stirring would vary depending on altitude?

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Absolutely they will. It's hard to come anywhere close to the same level of dissolved oxygen in the wort you get from a stir plate through any other method. Maybe a stir plate to make starters is a requirement for efficient high altitude brewing?

Gremlyn1 said:

Maybe a stir plate to make starters is a requirement for efficient high altitude brewing?

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There must be another variable here; as I've had no problems in fermentation times using dry yeast, liquid without a starter (that sample size is pretty small admittedly), liquid with a starter without a stir plate, liquid with a starter and a stir plate pitched at high krausen, liquid with a starter and stir plate cold pitched after decanting....

Hmmmm....maybe not just elevation (I'm at 7,000' too), but latitude as well?

Why you don't get a bottle of pure oxygen from lowes or home depot, $10 each (used for welding), and oxygenate you wort before pitching? Then see how that affect your fermentation profile.
I do that on all my batches and I'm at sea level.

Gremlyn1 said:

Absolutely they will. It's hard to come anywhere close to the same level of dissolved oxygen in the wort you get from a stir plate through any other method. Maybe a stir plate to make starters is a requirement for efficient high altitude brewing?

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I'm not asking about the comparison between a stir plate vs shaking/stirring.

I'm asking about comparing the oxygen level in the wort at altitude vs sea level, shaking/stirring the same way in both places.

d_striker said:

I'm not asking about the comparison between a stir plate vs shaking/stirring.

I'm asking about comparing the oxygen level in the wort at altitude vs sea level, shaking/stirring the same way in both places.

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Oh sorry, I misunderstood your question. It makes sense that there would be a difference based on the amount of oxygen in surrounding air. Whether it's enough to make a big difference... experiments would need to be run

AZ_IPA said:

There must be another variable here; as I've had no problems in fermentation times using dry yeast, liquid without a starter (that sample size is pretty small admittedly), liquid with a starter without a stir plate, liquid with a starter and a stir plate pitched at high krausen, liquid with a starter and stir plate cold pitched after decanting....

Hmmmm....maybe not just elevation (I'm at 7,000' too), but latitude as well?

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I can only guess based on anecdotal data given by the people in this thread. There are far too many variables to account for so getting info from just a few brewers of unknown caliber (not saying anyone specifically is bad at brewing) can't really help us make but educational guesses. Some carefully controlled experiments would be needed to figure out how much of an impact air density at different altitudes plays.

I'm at 9300 ft and my average-gravity ales will reach FG in less than a week. I check pitching rates with a hemocytometer (targeting 0.75 million/mL-°P) and ferment most things between 64-70°F. At work we oxygenate to 10-15 ppm DO; at home I use an air pump and stone for 10-15 min.

a10t2 said:

I'm at 9300 ft and my average-gravity ales will reach FG in less than a week. I check pitching rates with a hemocytometer (targeting 0.75 million/mL-°P) and ferment most things between 64-70°F. At work we oxygenate to 10-15 ppm DO; at home I use an air pump and stone for 10-15 min.

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You're in Silverton? Great town, and pretty good little brewery there!

Thanks! I've only been here since October but I'm liking it so far. We'll see how the summer goes...

I'm assuming you enjoy the summer a helluva a lot more than the winter!

I asked White labs about fermentation times in the primary. They said higher altitude would be a little slower, but not that much slower. And they said that lower temps make it slower. 68 degrees is not that low of a temp. Who knows. Guess I should not bother worrying about it if the beer taste good and has the ABV that I am looking for. I get 75% attenuation pretty much every time. I may try a starter just to see one time. I am lazy. That is why I buy liquid yeasts that have the 75 Billion to 100 Billion cells already to go.

KilhavenBrew said:

That is why I buy liquid yeasts that have the 75 Billion to 100 Billion cells already to go.

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I know Wyeast and White Labs say that those 100 billion cells are enough to provide a standard pitching rate, but that's a lie. For an average-gravity ale (5 gal batch) you need around 200 billion.

I can guarantee you WILL have faster fermentations if you increase the pitching rate. You'll probably also like the flavor of the beer better.

KilhavenBrew said:

I asked White labs about fermentation times in the primary. They said higher altitude would be a little slower, but not that much slower. And they said that lower temps make it slower. 68 degrees is not that low of a temp. Who knows. Guess I should not bother worrying about it if the beer taste good and has the ABV that I am looking for. I get 75% attenuation pretty much every time. I may try a starter just to see one time. I am lazy. That is why I buy liquid yeasts that have the 75 Billion to 100 Billion cells already to go.

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Did they say why it's slower at altitude?

They did not tell me why it would be slower. But based on the posts here, seems like that is not a concern. I believe the answer would be oxygen in the wort as that makes sense. But who knows. At this point, I got the answer I needed. That some of you have quick fermentation times at high altitude, so I can look else where for an answer if I care. Cant blame it on altitude anyhow.

KilhavenBrew said:

I asked White labs about fermentation times in the primary. They said higher altitude would be a little slower, but not that much slower. And they said that lower temps make it slower. 68 degrees is not that low of a temp. Who knows. Guess I should not bother worrying about it if the beer taste good and has the ABV that I am looking for. I get 75% attenuation pretty much every time. I may try a starter just to see one time. I am lazy. That is why I buy liquid yeasts that have the 75 Billion to 100 Billion cells already to go.

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But, it's underpitching. If you pitch the correct amount of yeast, I think your fermentations will go better. For an ale, you want to pitch around 0.75 million cells of viable yeast, for every milliliter of wort, for every degree Plato.

From mrmalty.com:
Here is the simple math to calculate the number of cells needed. For an ale, you want to pitch around 0.75 million cells of viable yeast, for every milliliter of wort, for every degree Plato.

(0.75 million) X (milliliters of wort) X (degrees Plato of the wort)

There are about 3785 milliliters in a gallon. There are about 20,000 milliliters in 5.25 US gallons.

One degree Plato is close to 1.004 of specific gravity (SG). Just divide the decimal portion of the SG by 4 to get the approximate degrees Plato (e.g., 1.060 is 15°P).

The proper amount of yeast for 5.25 US gallons of 1.060 wort is around 225 billion cells if you are pitching 0.75 million per milliliter.

(750,000) X (20,000) X (15) = 225,000,000,000

Another way to put it, you need about 3 ¾ billion cells for each point of OG when pitching into a little over 5 gallons (20 liters) of wort. Double that number for a lager.

With each vial or pack having around 100 billion cells, you would need two vials or packs (approximately 200 billion cells) to get close to that rate, if you didn’t want to make a starter.

How can you say that it is under pitching? My brother uses the same exact pitching rates. Dump in a container of the same exact yeast. And the results are very consistent between us.

KilhavenBrew said:

How can you say that it is under pitching? My brother uses the same exact pitching rates. Dump in a container of the same exact yeast. And the results are very consistent between us.

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Just because it's under pitching, doesn't mean that it won't work. It's just not the IDEAL pitching rate for the beer. White Labs created a product for the average, everyday home brewer that can be used right off the shelf to make good beer. If you want to take the next step and ensure your fermentations are carried out to the fullest with the healthiest yeast you can possibly obtain AND be able to repeat your results across multiple brews, then you need to calculate the amount of yeast you need and make a starter.

Chris White, the founder of White Labs, has a book out right now all about fermentation and he goes into some of this stuff in there.