Results from juice, yeast and sugar experiments

Man, Kevin, I just tried a sample from the spontaneously fermented gallon from that last haul from you. VERY weird. Yeasty, bready...tastes nothing like cider. We'll see how it does in a few months.

Evan - did you check the sg when you tasted it? My experience is that when sg drops below 1.020 is where it starts getting weird. Last year I tested a bottle of Scrumpy's (which is apparently fermented with wild yeast) and it was at 1.028, so they may have come to the same conclusion.

I fermented out five gallons of that same batch (Staymans and Winesaps) and bottled them on Friday. Two I sorbated and three I cold crashed. They got all the way down to 1.000 - 1.002 and taste surprisingly decent. I have no idea how that happened. I dont like these as much as the last batch but my guess is that you and the other brewers will probably like them better.

Felix - so far I have no technique on wild yeast, only luck which has been mostly poor but seems to be improving.

So far I've just done gallons, pouring out a little bit of juice to make space for foam and slap on a fermentation lock. Usually it takes about 2-3 days to start and another to really get going. One thing I have learned is to stop the fermentation around 1.020, but my last batch was an accidental exception to that rule.

The batch that everyone liked came from a cider pressing party that some friends hosted and they were really careful with prep. We washed all the apples and cut the bad spots out before pressing. That probably cut down on the chances of picking up weirdness bugs but you cant expect this level of prep from a commercial press

The odd thing about the last 5 gallons is that they fermented out before the ones I did with ale yeast. Normally I dont even bother checking the wild yeast batches before the ale yeast ones are finished because the wild yeast is a lot slower but this time the wild batches finished first - so either there was more yeast on these apples or a more aggressive strain, or maybe it was something else. I just wish I had caught them just a little earlier, like around 1.004.

I can tell you that for the two gallons with wild yeast that I sorbated, I was able to stop fermentation with half the recommended dose of k-meta and half the recommended dose of sorbate, while for the ale yeasts, it took a full dose of each to stop fermentation. I'm not sure if the wild yeast fermentation was easier to stop because of the yeast or because it was close to terminal sg already.

so you just let the juice go by itself?

i've heard of people preparing wild yeast by peeling skins , put them in a small container with some juice, and let this go for a week. They would then use something like half a cup of this juice as a starter for their fermentations, happily for 2 years apparently... so my gess is that one could simply trow some peels direct in their carboys and filter them out when racking, but that doing a "mother" cider would allow for more control over what you get from wild yeasts...

edit: i hope i'm making sense, i'm quite a newbie!

Yep, I have always just let the juice go by itself. The juice will already have lots of yeast from the skins which comes off during the crushing and pressing. There may be a better way. I suppose you could culture a wild yeast but it would probably take a fair amount of work to select one that is consistently better than whatever natural yeast is on the apples.

In an earlier post you said you were going to try The Wyeast3068 with unpasteurized juice. I was wondering how much of a difference you found between that and the pasteurized juice. By the way I've really enjoyed this post. I don't think I would have ever tried the Safale S 04 without it. I love it.

felix said:

so you just let the juice go by itself?

i've heard of people preparing wild yeast by peeling skins , put them in a small container with some juice, and let this go for a week. They would then use something like half a cup of this juice as a starter for their fermentations, happily for 2 years apparently... so my gess is that one could simply trow some peels direct in their carboys and filter them out when racking, but that doing a "mother" cider would allow for more control over what you get from wild yeasts...

edit: i hope i'm making sense, i'm quite a newbie!

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I've done quite a few batches using this method of propagating wild yeasts, and I'm waiting to post up a thread on it untill I've got the method down pat, but what I can tell you, is that the first batch using the peels will be a bit wierd if you go down below 1.020, like a earlier poster said. HOWEVER, I have found that if you let a small batch (gallon or half gallon) go all the way, then wash the yeast using the yeast washing instructions, the next batch is very clean and nice. My theory on that is that once the abv gets above 4% or so, the bugs have a harder time surviving, but the yeast does fine. I've got a bit of a wild yeast bank going from the yeast gotten off fruit grown in different areas. So far I've got two different wild apple yeasts, plum, and peach. some of the yeast is so-so, but I've got one that kicks the pants off the White Labs english cider yeast.

felix said:

so you just let the juice go by itself?

i've heard of people preparing wild yeast by peeling skins , put them in a small container with some juice, and let this go for a week. They would then use something like half a cup of this juice as a starter for their fermentations, happily for 2 years apparently... so my gess is that one could simply trow some peels direct in their carboys and filter them out when racking, but that doing a "mother" cider would allow for more control over what you get from wild yeasts...

edit: i hope i'm making sense, i'm quite a newbie!

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I tried this once based on a youtube video I saw. It was really good until about 1.024, then it started tasting and smelling like nail polish remover. I think that was an infection rather than an off flavor. I haven't tried it again but I probably will in the future. Here is the thread of my notes.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f32/quick-sweet-cider-impatient-70318/

i find the subject of wild yeasts wildly interesting.

I have a keg batch of Wyeast 3068 in progress now, with unpasteurized Stayman and Winesap juice. It has been the slowest fermenting of the most recent five keg batches. I started them almost 3 weeks ago and have already cold crashed the other four at sg's ranging from 1.002 to 1.004, but the 3068 is still at 1.030. Its still chugging along, just slow. It tastes pretty good though. Really nice body. Still too sweet and not much of a tart note, but hopefully that will change in a couple more weeks.

I'd have to say though, that for as much hassle as this 3068 batch has been, it will have to be a lot better than the ale yeasts to be worth another shot. It produced a foam that wasnt very dense, but it was soapy and gummed up the airlock for days. I finally gave up trying to keep it clean and just wrapped a towel around the neck of the carboy so that it wouldnt drip all over the carboy. That worked but encouraged fruit flies. If I use it again I will definitely use a blow off tube for the first 10 days instead of an airlock. And I'm not crazy about tying up a primary for six weeks. Normally three weeks in the primary is plenty and then three more weeks in secondary so I can free up my six gallon primary jugs for more juice. Hopefully it will be worth the extra hassle in a couple of weeks.

Thanks for that info and everything your doing. This post is a great source for me and others.

just a quick question of your saflager s23. I was going fine with it but it got away on me and is now at 1.000 Yeeech!!!! You say it improves with age. About how long? Oh well, if it improves a little bit maybe I 'll try to blend it with the safale s 04. I think I'm addicted to that

Bummer about the S23. Mine has dropped a little bit more since crashing to 1.002, but still very tasty. It has a bit more complexity than the S04 with the same juice. I just kegged the S04 batch and it tastes great. I also just crashed the S23 one more time to clear it a little more before kegging and hopefully keep it stable until I can drink it. I'm going to let it chill for several days this time.

The S23 definitely improves with age. I didnt think it was all that when I bottled the first batch in mid December of last year, but it was OK when we drank most of in in January and really good when we drank the last liter in September. In my short experience with saving cider, the drier it is, the longer it takes to really get good.

Great thread, lots of good info here.

Question for Kevin: Do you have anything that's been in the bottle for more than a year now?

I've got some more long term plans for a few batches and just wanted to get your take on longer term storage.

I still have two liters of a batch that I started on January 2 of last year. Thats the oldest stuff I have.

Last year was the first time I've ever managed to save anything past February, maybe March at the very latest, so I dont have much experience as others with storage. I saved 36 liter bottles and two kegs until September. The kegs were overly dry and I was planning to give them to a friend to make vinegar until about the end of August when they started to get decent tasting.

I have read a lot of posts from folks who just let it go dry and then save it for at least a year and that is what I am planning to do with the first 5 kegs I made this season. I let them ferment all the way out, didnt cold crash and will try to save them until next Fall. It remains to be seen if they will last that long or be any good, but that is the goal.

CvilleKevin said:

I still have two liters of a batch that I started on January 2 of last year. Thats the oldest stuff I have.

Last year was the first time I've ever managed to save anything past February, maybe March at the very latest, so I dont have much experience as others with storage. I saved 36 liter bottles and two kegs until September. The kegs were overly dry and I was planning to give them to a friend to make vinegar until about the end of August when they started to get decent tasting.

I have read a lot of posts from folks who just let it go dry and then save it for at least a year and that is what I am planning to do with the first 5 kegs I made this season. I let them ferment all the way out, didnt cold crash and will try to save them until next Fall. It remains to be seen if they will last that long or be any good, but that is the goal.

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I've got two batches that feremented out to 1.002 with Montrachet that are over a year now and one Cotes de Blanc batch that is getting close and they are both still good. The Montrachet has improved significantly.

gwood said:

I've got two batches that feremented out to 1.002 with Montrachet that are over a year now and one Cotes de Blanc batch that is getting close and they are both still good. The Montrachet has improved significantly.

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What was the OG?

jay415 said:

What was the OG?

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I don't have the numbers with me but I think that both batches had four pounds of sugar added...relatively high.

Kevin
I just thought I'd give you an update on the saflager S23yeast. 2 weeks ago I told you how it had chaged to something horrible. Well I took a sip of it last night and it is on its way back. I can't believe how much it changed in just two weeks. It is really quite pleasant tasting

When you tried the 4184 sweet mead yeast what was the FG? I am reading where this yeast is suppose to die out early and I was wondering how sweet the cider would be.

CvilleKev,

on some of these wild yeast strains that you are getting have you considered harvesting and washing some of the yeast, with that you could try to reproduce some of your more favored brews?

RugenBrau said:

When you tried the 4184 sweet mead yeast what was the FG? I am reading where this yeast is suppose to die out early and I was wondering how sweet the cider would be.

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Rugen,
the 4184 stopped at 1.010 for me. the cider was left tasting sweet and appley. i had boosted with two pounds light brown sugar so im thinking its still close to 8% abv (didnt take OG). regardless, i am wicked happy with the result and recommend the sweet mead yeast.

Kev, I was wondering just how exactly you got the S-04 batch to stop fermenting. I've started a batch that is 3.5 gallons of grape juice and 1 gallon of apple. I want to keep it above 1.006. Did you just rack it to a secondary, crash cool, and then keg it. Did you get it to completely stop?

Rugen – I’m glad to hear that your S23 improved. I finished off mine at a party a couple of weeks ago and it was great! It was the first keg to float (although we had already made a decent dent in it before the party). It was tough to stop fermenting though. Cold crashing it slowed it down, but it took 2 additional rackings to stop it at 1.002. I just started another batch. I crashed my 4184 batch at 1.002, and it dropped another couple of points over the next two weeks to 1.000. That was further than I wanted it go go and it started out pretty dry and raw tasting. That was a couple of months ago. It is just starting to get decent tasting now

Cheeto – I’ve considered harvesting and washing the wild yeast and probably will at some point, but for now I’m just experimenting with what happens naturally. I’ve only got a few wild batches to come out good so don’t have much basis of comparison for what makes one wild batch better than another. I started my first attempt to do a wild keg batch about 6 weeks ago. It came out pretty good. I crashed it at 1.014 and it is currently clearing in the secondary. It took a week for fermentation to start and I was just about to give up and add some ale yeast, but I’m glad I waited. I just started another wild keg batch yesterday.

Bwright – I usually rack to a spare 6gal carboy, then crash cool for one or two days and then rack into a 5 gal secondary. Usually I let the secondary sit a few weeks to continue clearing, but sometimes I go right into the keg - depending on how clear it is, how good it tastes, and whether I need something to tap. The S04 always stops right away, which is one of the reasons I like using it. Sometimes I will see some airlock activity with S04, but I’m pretty sure that is malolactic fermentation because the sg never drops. One thing that is a little puzzling to me is that last year I did a lot of different yeasts in gallon batches and they all cold crashed with no problems, even at fairly high sg. In 5 gallon batches, the S23 and 4184 sgs kept dropping after crashing. I’m not sure why. Maybe the larger volume and fermentation activity keeps some of the yeast warm enough to keep going. Come to think of it, I might try to make some sort of stand to make sure that the bottom of the carboy gets cold when I crash the S23 I just started. But the ale yeasts I’ve been using (S04, US05 and Nottingham) all crash with no problem, as did the 3068 and wild batch.

Hi Folks - Here are some preliminary results from 21 experimental batches I started at the end of October, to check out the effects of k-meta and k-sorbate. All were done using the same juice which was a mix of Staymans and Winesaps, unpasteurized, with an unsweetened sg of 1.050 and pH of 3.7:

I made 16 single gallon batches that were all variations of the same recipe, plus another 5 gallons that were wild yeast batches, with different methods for stopping fermentation. I bottled three liters from each batch. My goal was to taste one liter from each batch as soon after bottling as possible, then again sometime in the Spring and then next Fall, to see how they hold up over time.

Much to my surprise, the wild batches finished fermenting first. I didn’t check them until they got to 1.002, which was a little too dry, but they were still drinkable. The five wild batches were finished as follows:
- One just cold crashed with no additives.
- One with half the recommend dose of k-meta (1/40tsp) after fermentation and then cold crashed.
- One with the recommended 1/20tsp of k-meta after fermentation and cold crash.
- One with a half dose of k-meta and half a dose (1/4tsp) of k-sorbate after fermentation, no cold crash
- One with a full dose of k-meta and half a dose of k-sorbate after fermentation, no cold crash.

I didn’t have time to set up a dedicated tasting for these so we opened them at the beginning of a party a few weeks ago and checked them out. I had rating sheets, but it was kinda hectic and there was better stuff on tap so most people only tasted 2 or 3 before moving on and they all got mediocre scores. So I dont have much of a consensus opinion on these, just my own impression. This was about a month after bottling and at this point, the k-meta and k-sorbate both had easily discernible tastes. The k-meta had the sour bite, even in the half dose and the k-sorbate has a sweeter, sort of spicy taste, that I cant really describe, but if you put a little bit of fresh k-sorbate on your tongue, that’s the taste. It doesn’t change much after reacting with the cider for a month. Fortunately the two additives are somewhat complimentary. My favorite of the five was the one with the ½ dose of k-meta, plus the k-sorbate, but that was partly because the ciders didn’t have a whole lot of taste to start with – most of the sugar was gone. The k-sorbated batches were also noticeably clearer than the ones I cold crashed, so it acts somewhat as a clearing agent.

While the wild yeast batches were fermenting away, I was keeping a closer watch on the 16 S04 batches. All of them had 3oz of organic cane sugar and 1.5oz of corn sugar to bump the sg to 1.060. I tried to stop them all at 1.006, but I wasn’t able to check them every night so one finished at 1.008 and a few went to 1.004 and 1.002. The batches were as follows:

- No k-meta added before or after fermentation - cold crash
- No k-meta before fermentation, ½ dose afterwards - cold crash
- No k-meta before fermentation, 1/3 dose afterwards - cold crash
- No k-meta before fermentation, regular dose afterwards - cold crash
- 1/3 dose k-meta before fermentation, none afterwards - cold crash
- 1/3 dose k-meta before fermentation, 1/3 afterwards - cold crash
- ½ dose k-meta before fermentation, none afterwards - cold crash
- ½ dose k-meta before fermentation, ½ afterwards - cold crash
- regular dose k-meta before fermentation, none afterwards – cold crash

- No k-meta before fermentation, 1/3 dose afterwards – sorbate, no cold crash
- No k-meta before fermentation, ½ dose afterwards - sorbate, no cold crash
- No k-meta before fermentation, regular dose afterwards - sorbate, no cold crash
- 1/3 dose k-meta before fermentation, 1/3 afterwards - sorbate, no cold crash
- 1/3 dose k-meta before fermentation, 2/3 afterwards - sorbate, no cold crash
- ½ dose k-meta before fermentation, ½ afterwards - sorbate, no cold crash
- ½ dose k-meta before fermentation, regular dose afterwards - sorbate, no cold crash

When I sorbated these, I used the full recommended 1/2tsp dose. I tried the first few with 1/4tsp but that was not enough stop the fermentation of the S04. For the wild batches ¼tsp was enough to stop fermentation. As with the wild yeast batches, the ones with sorbate cleared up more than the ones I cold crashed.

After I bottled these, I realized that 16 different batches would be really tough to compare all at once, but by then it was too late to go back and re-think this. Last weekend a good friend had a birthday, so we had a critical mass for a tasting. Amazingly, besides myself a half dozen folks made it through all of the batches and scored them and several folks got partially through the list, so I have a few other opinions to go on besides my own taste.

The batch with no k-meta before fermentation, a full dose of k-meta afterwards and cold crashed scored the best across the board. Generally, the batches that had no k-meta in the beginning, some k-meta at the end and cold crashed scored better. The sorbated batches generally didn’t score as well, except for the batch with 1/3 dose of k-meta in the beginning, and 1/3 dose of k-meta at the end, just before sorbating. Maybe this is the optimal taste balance of k-meta to the sorbate, but I suspect the real reason was that this was the one batch that I stopped at 1.008, which was higher than all the others – in which case the lesson is that it doesn’t matter much what you do, just don’t let the sugar drop too low. For some reason, no one else liked the first batch that had no additives at all - just the cold crash, although it was one of my favorites

I didn’t like the sorbate as much on these batches as I did with the wild yeast batches, and most folks seemed to agree with the scoring I think part of it was because I had to use the full dose of sorbate to get the S04 to stop fermenting. Also, because these batches had a higher FG, they had a little more apple taste than the wild batches, and the sorbate stomped on that a bit. I was hoping that I could use sorbate as an alternative to cold crashing because its easier and it helps the cider to clear, but at this stage at least, I didn’t care for it as much. Maybe it will get better as time goes on. A few people really liked though, so I’d still recommend at least trying it and see if you like the taste, as it is easier than cold crashing.

Another thing that I found interesting and useful is that the k-meta taste wasn’t nearly as prominent when the k-meta is added after fermentation, compared to the same amount of k-meta added before fermentation. The tartness is still there, but its not as harsh. That would lead me to believe that in addition to having some taste of its own, the k-meta must also affect the fermentation – otherwise adding it earlier in the process ought to cause the taste to fade more. I’m hoping that this means that the preservative effects of the k-meta can be gained afterwards, so one could make a batch and then either drink it right away or add k-meta for storage.

So after you crash cool and rack it, do you leave it in the fridge or can you bring it back to room temp to clear? I really don't have room in my kegerator for a 5 gallon carboy to be clearing. Also, would it be any harder to stop fermentation at like 1.006 as compared to 1.002?

I usually bring it up to room temp to clear (room temp being my basement which stays between 58 and 65 these days). I've crashed S04 batches as high as 1.010 and they have always stayed stable. One thing I have learned is on the last rack after cooling, dont try to get every last drop of clear cider because when you get close to the bottom is when you are most likely to accidentally suck up some yeast. On the rack before the cooling, you can afford to be a little more sloppy because any yeast you accidentally suck up will precipitate out in the fridge.

Why all the effort to stop an active fermentation. Why not just let it ferment to dry then back sweeten to the desired taste and force carbonate if desired?

After all it appears that the ones with the highest residual sugar tend to be preferred.

"Residual sugar" is not back sweetening with lactose or splenda. To me its not even comparable. The natural sugars in the grape juice are what makes it taste good. Lactose is made from milk. It's just not the same. Also, if let it ferment out all the way, it's going to be dry regardless of whether or not you back sweeten.

I'm not talking about lactose or splenda. I'm talking about back sweetening with either beet, cane, or corn sugar. Maybe it's just me, but I can't taste the difference between cider with residual sugar and cider that has been back sweetened with cane or beet sugar.

After all, many people here seem to be adding sugar to increase the alcohol content anyway. How do you know if it is the naturally occurring sugars that remain or the added sugars when you have residual sugar?

phred_02 said:

I'm not talking about lactose or splenda. I'm talking about back sweetening with either beet, cane, or corn sugar. Maybe it's just me, but I can't taste the difference between cider with residual sugar and cider that has been back sweetened with cane or beet sugar.

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Good luck getting that to not ferment out.

Evan! said:

Good luck getting that to not ferment out.

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Yep, that is what I was just thinking. Every time I've done this that is what happens.

So here's my plan, correct me if I'm wrong. I've had this fermenting about 4 days now. I'm gonig to check the gravity and when it reaches 1.007 I will rack it to a 5 gallon carboy. I'll still have an active fermentation if I left it at that. Then I crash cool it to about 35? to get the rest of the 04 to drop out. Leave it there a couple of days and then rack into another 5 gallon carboy and let it clear in my basement (60F). At this point, if I was careful while racking, the fermentation should have held at 1.007.

Cold crashing works..but you risk some yeast restarting after you bring it in and take it back up to 60F. Even some lagers that has been cold crashed, then bottled has quite frequently "self carbed" itself after the fact.

I'd play it safe and if you want to stop it...take frequent Hydro readings..and then add sodium metabisulphite and sorbate to it, and wait for it to clear.

Dan

what flyweed says. The only way you're going to safely backsweeten with fermentables and keep them from fermenting is to cold-crash, then back sweeten while it's cold, then add K-meta (campden tablets), then send it to a keg and keep it cold the whole time. Maybe Kevin can correct me here, but I just wouldn't trust it, especially if you're bottling.

Alright, you've beaten me into submission. I have to see if this initial batch works though. Kevin is talking about a specific yeast US-04. He was only able to do this with one other yeast. That's why I used it. I don't want to back sweeten at all. That's my whole point here. To not HAVE to backsweeten. But, since my experience is limited, maybe I'm going about this wrong anyway. I've got it in my head that to allow the fermentation to go its course will take my gravity to around 1.000. Now, I started at 1.070 to beging with, so its going to be dry as hell. Which is exactly what I DONT want. And even if I back sweeten, it will still have a bit of a sharp taste to it. Am I wrong about this? I've never back sweetened anything. It always seemed to me that back sweetening is a technique used to try and mask that sharp bite that dry wines have. I was trying to avoid that all together. Acording to Kevin, it can be done with a specific yeast (US-04), multiple rackings, and cold crashing. Apparently everyone else completely disagrees. I think it would be possible if kept it cold after cold crashing. My intent wasn't to bottle, although I would love to bottle some. If back sweetening will result in the same taste as leaving some residual sugars at 1.007, then that's what I'll do. Otherwise, I've got to give this a try. And if I do add the chemicals, I can still only back sweeten with unfermentables right? lactose, splenda......

Well it's entirely up to you how you do it..but the best way is probably to let it ferment out and backsweeten. I've backsweetened Apfelwein and it doesn't take away anything from the original taste, other than being sweeter to my liking. So I don't think sweetening after fermenting causes any problems..it does take away the "dryness"...but that's about it.

IF you DO add the K-meta and sorbate..you can backsweeten with anything...I used K-meta and sorbate in my apfelwein let it sit a good 48 hours, then backsweetened with 2 cans of apple juice concentrate and 1/4 wildflower honey....this took my apfelwein from a S.G. of .998, to right around 1.013 at 66F. I now have it kegged and carbonating at 25psi for about a week.

Anyway..like I said, it's totally up to you on how you do it, but if you go the cold crash route, crash it, and keep it cold until it's ALL gone..otherwise you will have fermentation likely restart on you.

Good luck and keep us posted
Dan

Sounds good. One last thing though, I've read differing opinions on whether or not the k-meta and sorbate adds flavor (notably acidity) to the apfelwein. Lactose seems to be the easiest route to backsweeten, but being that it comes from milk makes me pause. Although, I've never used it. Keep you posted.

So, can you go thru the cold shock process, rerack, let settle, then bottle like beer with priming sugar?

Possibly, and only if you keep it cold. I wouldn't bottle without a full fermentation and chemicals.