Digitally track your fermentation

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Yeah, I think if the liquid were left in the sightglass, there would be a pretty big lag, not to mention the yeast in that tube may ferment at a different rate than the main vessel given temp differences, skewing the reading. It would be easy enough to have a valve to the sightglass to take a reading, and a valve under it to empty into a glass for a taste. Then you might not have the sterility issue.

Of course that idea doesn't use lazorz, but you still line the tube with some sweet LEDs to trick it out.
 
artbrau said:
This may be treating the subject with too much gravity (!) but I wonder about the sight glass idea. Can we assume that the gravity in the sight glass would match the gravity in the larger vessel? Is there a gravity gradient at different parts of the vessel? Maybe the turbulence would eliminate that, but the sight glass would be out of that At a minimum it seems there would be a lag.
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No, my original visions is that when you're ready to take a grav reading, you open the stopcock and the beer from the fermenter then floods into the tub. What you are taking a reading of is of the fermented beer.

Additionally if you did an open inflow from the fermenter into the sightglass in a stopcockless design, you're going to be getting all the movement from the yeast in there. The fluid is all going to be the same.
 
There might be a small lag but with the way fermentation turns over the wort it would be small with an open stop cock like revvy described .
 
windbreaker123 said:
There might be a small lag but with the way fermentation turns over the wort it would be small with an open stop cock like revvy described .
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I don't think there'd be any lag since the liquids are connected to each other still, the yeasties are moving back and forth doing their job, it's no different that if you are fermenting in an aquatainer or a water jug with a built in handle and wort is in there. It's not like it's a seperate "satellite" fermeter which is it's own closed environment- It's like a tidal pool that is still connected to the ocean, they're still part of the same body of water.
 
Revvy said:
The only status a bubbling airlock indicates is that your airlock is bubbling, or not....It doesn't tell you why it is, or why it isn't. I think it's moronic to believe otherwise.
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Look, no one is disputing the fact that the only way to truly monitor a fermentation with certainty is to use a hydrometer. End of story.

That said, airlock activity is in most cases a reliable indicator of what is happening inside your fermentor. As with most basic scientific exercises, the simplest explanation is usually the correct one. You site all of these remote possibilities of what airlock activity could/could not mean, while ignoring the most likely reason...the course of fermentation. If you are truly experiencing these oddball issues 50% of the time, I suggest you invest in some new equipment, or learn how to use it properly.

Finally, here's a free tip...condescending, long-winded diatribes aimed at new brewers make for an unfriendly atmosphere around here. There is a way to be helpful and offer advice that is grounded in reality, without coming off like a pontificating know-it-all.

Cheers mate.
 
Revvy said:
And how does an airlock that may or may not bubble, or can bubble slow, or fast or not at all, can start and stop due to changes in barometric pressure, temperature, or whether or not the cat or vacuum cleaner bumped into it, help you to know how or even if a brew is fermenting at any given time? Half the time my airlocks NEVER bubble. And sometimes the lowest gravity beer will have an airlock blowoff whereas I could be brewing a barleywine that barely bubbles?


Bubbling and fermetnation are NOT the same thing. And you really need to separate the two ideas. Airlocks tell you the WHAT is happening, that co2 is or isn't getting out of the fermenter....but they aren't telling you the WHY. If it's fermenting or not, or off gassing or not. If it's done or not....

A HYDROMETER is the only indicator of how a beer/wine is doing at any given time. An airlock is purely a vent, a VALVE to release built up co2, it's not a "magic fermentation gauge."


Airlock activity is irrevelent. Just gravity points on a hydrometer.

The rate or lack of or whether or not it bubbles at all, or if it starts and stops has more relation to the environment the fermenter is in, rather than fermentation itself. All it is is a vent, a valve to let our excess gas, especially co2, nothing else. It's not a fermentation gauge whatsoever.

And the only TRULY airtight fermenters out there are if you ferment in a keg or a conical, something that can contain the pressure of fermentation.

Contrary to what you may think, neither a bucket OR a carboy with a bung is airtight. As I stated above you don't want it to be airtight, unless it's a keg or a Stainless conical, unless you like beer/ wine on your ceiling.

The airlock is one of the most superfluous things in brewing, that new brewers seem to put the most stock in.

I've said it over and over and trolls like to try to get me, or even accuse me of lying (which I don't get why I would lie about something like this) but over the years of LOTS of batches of ALL SIZES and BOTH carboys and buckets, better bottles or glass, carboy caps or bungs, new buckets old buckets, s-types and 3 piece, I get about 50% airlock failure rate (but 100% success rate of fermentation) and it's any number if things, usually simply a non tight seal in the bucket or carboy or grommet....but to me the reason doesn't matter....the point is just trying to glance at an airlock and know what the beer is doing, just is NOT accurate.

My belief is that 1 occurrance is an anamoly, 2 may be a coincidence, BUT 3 or more occurance is an epidemic...and that's the case for folks relying on airlocks all the time, to me if 1 brewer comes on saying his airlock is not bubbling, AND he takes a reading and finds fermentation is going fine, that's an anamoly...

But DAILY on here there are at least 10 threads stating the exact thing...so MAYBE there is something to this idea that airlocks can be faulty. AND if they have the potential to be faulty, then how can we trust them to tell us what's going on?

You can quibble about it all you want, or deal in semantics, but we deal in sheer volume of users on here, and daily we have airlocks not bubbling, and many of them where a gravity reading indicates that fermentation is happening beautifully.

And yes, in an IDEAL situation (like let's say fermenting in a keg with a tight seal and no leak from around the airlock) the airlock SHOULD bubble 100% of the time (providing there's not too much headspace.) If more co2 is created than can be contained in the spavce of the fermenter, THEN an airlock should bubble....because an airlock is a valve.

But MOST of us don't have IDEAL situations, and rarely is a plastic or glass fermenter airtight- it really isn't supposed to be anyway...SO we aren't in the best situation to have IDEAL 100% accuracy of an airlock...


So that's why it's a good idea NOT to relie on or stress out about what it is or isn't doing. Just realize that airlocks bubble or they don't, they start, they stop, they bubble fast, they bubble slow, and they bubble or don't whether fermentation happens or not.

Like I said, the only accurate thing that will tell you what your beer is or isn't doing, is taking gravity readings.

So tell me again how this is an important brewing device?
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You misspelled fermentation. :cool:
 
user_23443_3L28L9MH.gif
 
Man everyone gets soooooo touchy. Its all good! Bubble counter=awesome!

Everyone relax, dont worry, and have a home brew, without worrying anymore about bubbles, fermentation, hydrometers, etc.

If anything, there have been some good ideas thrown around for monitoring fermentation continuously during primary!
 
Joe Dragon said:
Yeah, that's it Revvy. He apparently claimed that bubbles are the only way on earth to explain fermentation. He clearly said "For every bubble an angel gets its wings". He clearly stated that bubble emission is the only way on earth to determine fermentation completion. Yay, your diatribe against anything fun makes this entire post useless. Hell, Tex should delete this post and ban the guy because YOU say his idea is useless!!!

Now excuse me while I go back and dump every beer I have that hasn't spent 87 weeks in a primary and God forbid I actually used a secondary.
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Daaaaaaaaaaaaamn
 
Well.....for me, the horse was never alive to begin with, possibly because I've never experienced a stuck fermentation or any other related problems. Does my airlock bubble? Yes; every time. I check it in the evening after brewday before I go to bed. I've almost always got some activity then; if not, then the next morning. I then forget about it for the month of the extended primary. When I take the lid off and use the thief to extract a sample (I just put the hydrometer in the thief), it's always at an acceptable point to declare FG.

So- my conclusion is: I don't see what the big deal is about tracking fermentation, whether we're using a bubble-counting device, taking periodic hydrometer readings, or using a Magic 8-Ball™. OTOH, as I alluded to earlier, maybe I just haven't had certain problems surface yet, and so it isn't an issue to me.
 
All these pics of guys kicking dead horses all look like camels to me. Why would someone kick a dead camel? :D

I too think there are WAY too many threads about airlocks not bubbling 1 day after brew day and new brewers being concerned about it. If you say as some do here that an air lock bubbling is a "likely" or "pretty likely" or even somewhat likely indicator that fermentation is happening, then you're enabling the problem to keep going. There's a freaking sticky at the top of the beginners section that says fermentation can take up to 3 days to show activity or something. There are still 10 threads a week about fermentation not starting right away or airlock activity ceased after 3 days or people saying "well the airlock was bubbling once every second, now it's only bubbling once every minute. Should I be worried?" There should be a second sticky that says "Airlocks dont indicate fermentation" or "Dont trust your airlock too much."

All these aribitrary indicators of fermentation really indicate only that there is a pressure change in the fermenter. It doesnt tell you why. The only thing that indicates that sugar is being turned into alcohol is that thing that measures the resistance of the liquid, you know, a hydrometer.

I think Revvy is sick of it because of the sheer number of posts like the ones I outlined. You think that maybe a new guy is actually having a problem with his brew, maybe. But it's just an anxious guy being too ready to add more yeast or call the fermentation done or counting the bubbles saying it's happening or not. You have to respond the same way every time. Dont worry about it, it'll have krausen by morning or that airlocks arent a good indicator of fermentation or take a gravity reading in the morning. A simple search would yield that the worried guy's fermentation will fire off just like 98% of the guys in the threads he sees after he searches. But endless threads still end up here. I think that's the main reason that the digital fermentation tracker isnt a good idea. It just gives anxious guys a reason to be more anxious about airlocks.
 
g-star said:
Look, no one is disputing the fact that the only way to truly monitor a fermentation with certainty is to use a hydrometer. End of story.

That said, airlock activity is in most cases a reliable indicator of what is happening inside your fermentor. As with most basic scientific exercises, the simplest explanation is usually the correct one. You site all of these remote possibilities of what airlock activity could/could not mean, while ignoring the most likely reason...the course of fermentation. If you are truly experiencing these oddball issues 50% of the time, I suggest you invest in some new equipment, or learn how to use it properly.
Click to expand...

Hmmm and some of you trolls think I'm full of ****, eh????? That airlocks always bubble???

No airlock activity but MASSIVE krausen

Maybe if you actually spent time actually helping the new brewers and spent time in the beginner's forums, instead of being a troll, you would see that DAILY there are threads just like this on here.


Cheers Mate!!!!
 
g-star said:
Look, no one is disputing the fact that the only way to truly monitor a fermentation with certainty is to use a hydrometer. End of story.

That said, airlock activity is in most cases a reliable indicator of what is happening inside your fermentor. As with most basic scientific exercises, the simplest explanation is usually the correct one. You site all of these remote possibilities of what airlock activity could/could not mean, while ignoring the most likely reason...the course of fermentation. If you are truly experiencing these oddball issues 50% of the time, I suggest you invest in some new equipment, or learn how to use it properly.

Finally, here's a free tip...condescending, long-winded diatribes aimed at new brewers make for an unfriendly atmosphere around here. There is a way to be helpful and offer advice that is grounded in reality, without coming off like a pontificating know-it-all.

Cheers mate.
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This. CO2 is a direct by-product of fermentation. If you have fermentation, you have CO2. The only way it won't be bubbling is if you don't have a good seal on your vessel (which is another good reason to look at the airlock; it'll help you know when you need to better seal your vessel).

I have never had a leaky fermenter in my 80+ batches and watching the airlock is an extremely valuable resource for me. I use it all the time to know when things are slowing down and when to begin ramping temps on fermenters etc. Telling people to not watch the airlock is pandering to the lowest denominator. Throwing out a useful tool simply because the information it provides might be misinterpreted doesn't make sense to me. Instead of us slamming new brewers for doing this, how about we let them know the variables involved, give them an understanding of what is happening, and let them figure out whether they should be watching it or not?
 
Just one more viewpoint: if you assume bubblers always bubble during fermentation, what happens when you get a stuck fermentation? Those bubbles cease, you bottle, you create 2 cases of potential bottle bombs.

While some folks may be heavier handed with the argument than others, I think it's misleading to newbies at best, and somewhat dangerous at worst, to perpetuate the idea that bubbles or the rate of bubbling necessarily indicate anything about fermentation.
 
{NB: I am merely thinking by typing in writing this post, it's not personal or aimed at anyone who has contributed to this thread......so if you feel you might be offended by mere speculation on my part, please quit reading NOW.}

Since this thread is moving further into the psychology of this pastime, after reading "statseeker"'s post I thought of our cultural context. In the U.S., we are conditioned to instant gratification, and the more instant the better, preferably yesterday, and for everything. We are immersed in this by the media and all of our "pushbutton" technology to the point where immediate results are a cultural assumption, it's somehow a virtue to be "busy" and be constantly moving on to the next thing, and the correct results move somewhere further down on our list of priorities. An outcome is more important than a thorough plan, it's all about "-getting to the bottom line."

I hasten to add that I don't claim that I'm any more immune to this syndrome than any other 21st century person in the developed world......but we can learn. I've been brewing for four years, and I find that the progress of -most- of my fermentations is quite predictable. I adopted extended primary as my standard procedure (except for big beers or others requiring extended bulk aging) only partly because it simplified the brewing process and made for less work. In effect, It eliminated all concern about the progress of the fermentation, concern that was real enough when I was doing the standard 1-2-4 week brewing. Any variable that might have resulted in the beer not having fermented out in a week was completely eliminated by leaving it in primary for 3-4 weeks. I reiterate that I make no claim that I am more careful or skillful in my brewing than the next person.

This calls to mind the line by Homer Simpson when told he'd have to wait a week to get a gun- "But I'm mad now!" About a year after my start in brewing, I began to realize that something needed to be done to eliminate the problem of constantly waiting on beer to be done. After reading enough threads on HBT, I decided that the easiest solution, although it required some work and expense, was to just increase the extent of my pipeline so that it didn't matter how long it took for something to be done. I also understand that this method is of little use when one wants a special beer on short notice.

I state again that what I have written here reflects only my own experience and the changes that have taken place in my brewing.....some of which may not even be possible or applicable to a given person's situation.
 
wonderbread23 said:
Instead of us slamming new brewers for doing this, how about we let them know the variables involved, give them an understanding of what is happening, and let them figure out whether they should be watching it or not?
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There are explanations about airlock activity all over this site. So if new brewers want an understanding of what is going on, all they have to do is read. I think that the issue is that new brewers post new threads about airlock activity without searching the forum and reading. It is certainly not that other people on here have not tried to teach "an understanding of what is happening" - even on this thread.

Granted, it can sometimes be difficult to find an exact answer to a question by searching HBT. And I am also likely guilty of posting new threads that have already been answered elsewhere. But questions about airlock activity are everywhere on HBT. And the answers (and great explanations) are very easy to find.
 
HBT is a forum not a search engine. New brewers come here to ask questions. If that bothers you don't answer. The condescending attitude is uncalled for.
 
Revvy said:
Hmmm and some of you trolls think I'm full of ****, eh????? That airlocks always bubble???
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Sigh. If you can’t understand the difference between “always” and “most of the time” then no one is going to be able to help you. Of course there are going to be exceptions to every rule, but that doesn’t mean we should ignore basic brewing facts and statistics. Like your mystery cases of rampant non-bubbling airlocks, you only focused on the part of my post that validates your pre-conceived notions about homebrewing and the people that post here with different perspectives than your own narrow viewpoint. Then you decided to go the personal attack route, so I’m done arguing with someone so hard-headed.

FYI…just b/c you have the time to make 30,000+ posts to an internet forum doesn’t make you the final word on the subject…you’re just another guy with an opinion. :rolleyes:
 
AnOldUR said:
HBT is a forum not a search engine. New brewers come here to ask questions. If that bothers you don't answer. The condescending attitude is uncalled for.
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I suppose you are right about this being a forum but there is definitely overlap and searching the forum is just something that I think should be better promoted, for many reasons. It looks like the site tries to promote it... its even mentioned in the rules and regs FAQ on the site.

FWIW, my condescending attitude (which was not intentional) was in reference to the prior poster who seemed to be disappointed by the lack of explanation regarding airlock activity. I don't agree.
 
Just a quick question? How many of these threads end this way - couple a day/week? I am all about poking fun and having a good time with posts as long as everyone else is having fun, but this thread has gone deep into super ridiculous now. Are my post always helpful and educational? Absolutely not. Maybe they should be... I think that at least 10 different people have answered the same question about fermentation/airlocks. Yes, gets tiring reading the same posts, and yes, with a little research on HBT, you can find answers relatively easily. Granted, it is not a search engine, but still it is easy enough to find answers. Someone even mentioned that there is a sticky. Isn't home brewing all about educating yourself and bettering your processes via reading, researching, and asking questions when you can't find the answer? For me it is, and I have asked my fair share of questions on HBT.

I will work on being more kind and courteous to everyone on HBT, and I apologize for being an ass if anyone took offense to the "camel" pic/my comments.

To the OP - thanks for sending the link to the bubble monitor! As i mentioned before, would be awesome to know how to do that! I am struggling to wire up my DIY stirplate. Off to radio shack after i post this!
 
FYI - The search feature on this site is pretty bad. I rarely find what I am looking for using it. Unless I am looking for single, rare word. I usually end up doing a Google search and finding the HBT thread with Google.

That said, the scientific explanation was given many posts back. Bubbles do not indicate fermentation. There are several reason why they might not bubble, or why they might bubble when fermentation is not active. New brewer should learn these reasons and understand how they apply to their hobby. The simple answer of "you should make your fermenters bubble" is poor advice. At best, a bubbling fermenter probably indicates your fermentation is underway.

Beyond the initial "Is my yeast working?" question, I advise using a more proper tool, a hydrometer, to better understand where the gravity of the beer is, rather than making assumptions based on what might or might not be happening with the airlock.

Fermenters that leak are not necessarily a poor fermentation vessel. An airlock on an otherwise perfectly sealed fermenter will not keep air from being sucked back in, if the pressure differential is great enough. Many, many people successfully ferment in leaky buckets, or even leaking carboys, for YEARS without any issues.

As a final disclaimer, I am talking about the primary fermentation, not an extended aging where you certainly would wish to blanket the beer with CO2 and keep air out lest the beer become oxidized. During primary, there is enough positive pressure and CO2 from solution being released to protect the beer from that problem.
 
I think the bubble counter is super-nifty. Kudo's to the guy who built it. You guys shouldn't get so worked up over a simple clever gizmo someone made in their free time.

Unfortunately (well, actually it's fortunate I guess), almost all fermentations would produce a nearly identical curve, so it would get boring pretty fast.
 
Homercidal said:
FYI - The search feature on this site is pretty bad. I rarely find what I am looking for using it. Unless I am looking for single, rare word. I usually end up doing a Google search and finding the HBT thread with Google.
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That's interesting; I have great luck with the search features. Although I have to agree; if I use Google when trying to find an answer it usually ends up with me on HBT! Having said that, I've been directed to great info on some other forums as well. Usually the threads are pretty old on the other sites I find.
 
I don't think a bubble counter is a bad idea at all. It would be a good indicator to tell you; the beer is getting ready to finish, time to get out the hydrometer. Wort ferments a lot faster than many believe. I think with some modifications it could work quite well to give you an idea of the status of your fermentation. I think a airlock redesign would be in order to make sure the bubbles are the same size every time which would improve the accuracy. Leaks can easily be dealt with.

If one wanted to, given the OG, and a predicted FG, one could get a pretty decent value for the amount of CO2 that would be released from a brew. This would vary a little depending on the wort composition (mostly dextrins and the like that are unfermentable). Bubble volume could be measured (assuming a modified airlock) and then the amount of bubbles released up trhough any time point could be used to calculate an approximation the current gravity.

One could get all fancy, and make a CO2 detector, and then one could get a quite accurate value.

Does one need to go through all of this? Of course not. It is overkill? Sure. One could simply just wait, and then measure the gravity with a hydrometer. But then again, why go through all of the trouble to brew beer when I can just go to the store and buy it. Sounds like overkill to me.

Its a hobby. Do it however you want.
 
pjj2ba said:
Does one need to go through all of this? Of course not. It is overkill? Sure. ...
Its a hobby. Do it however you want.
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Right. In my "Dry your own yeast" thread, Denny Conn asks me, simply, "Why". Well, duh! Because!

If you are a gadget guy (or gal), you're going to do these things. Fish gotta fly, birds gotta swim. :mug:

OK, sorry for getting off topic. Now, back to more beating dead camels and dog-piling onto the broken-hearted Rev. :(
 
I don't understand why you guys are arguing about generalities in brewing technique. The OP is talking about a device that would obviously have some important prerequisites in order for it to give you data (i.e. the fermentation vessel is sealed and the airlock is the only way for gas to escape).
 
To quote Styx "too much time on my hands"

I'm working on a counter that measures the number of grains as they pass through through the barley crusher.

This will tell how many grains I use per batch which will help me..............uh..uhh.uhh

I'll figure out how it will help me later.;)
 
pjj2ba said:
If one wanted to, given the OG, and a predicted FG, one could get a pretty decent value for the amount of CO2 that would be released from a brew. . .
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How about a balloon over the top of the carboy?

Given the proper size and thickness, when it blows up and pops, your beer is done. :cross:
 
runningweird said:
[QUOTE
Then you could point a webcam at it and even monitor it remotely online.
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yeah, great, then instead of walking to the garage to pop the lid on my ferm freezer 8 times a day just to my beers work a little I can stare 18 hours a day at a miniscule change in gravity reading on my laptop screen. This hobby takes up so much time already.

really, the best idea would be to set up an old smart phone to read miniature qr codes printed on the hydrometer as it passes by a small viewing window, which would then be sent to a computer controlled wall mounted scrolling marquis screen displaying the constant gravity readings. I could put it in my living room above the tv.

:rockin:[/QUOTE]

How about a digital hydrometer that sends a wifi signal to your computor which in turn logs the reading into Beersmith? Then Beersmith twitters, facebooks,google +'s, Myspaces (does any use this), texts, emails, youtubes, faxes and sends automatic telephone calls to you and your love ones every 15 minutes on the progress of the fermentation.:mug:
 
Now you've got me thinking... The OG/FG is just a measurement of the minuscule weight of beer displaced by the hydrometer. So with your sightglass idea, if the top of the tube were closed, then when you open the stopcock the trapped air pressure would reflect the entire weight of beer above the sightglass inlet. That's a considerable amount! As the beer ferments, the weight of the beer column, and resulting air pressure in the sight glass, gets reduced by what, 5% say? Looking at the original bubble counter design, notice that this guy uses a pressure transducer in the airlock. So with his identical hardware, just move that pressure sensor to the top of the sealed sightglass and Bob's Your Uncle. No hydrometer necessary. For the low-tech cavemen, an analog pressure gauge might even be enough? I'll have to do the calculations...


Revvy said:
No, my original visions is that when you're ready to take a grav reading, you open the stopcock and the beer from the fermenter then floods into the tub. What you are taking a reading of is of the fermented beer.

Additionally if you did an open inflow from the fermenter into the sightglass in a stopcockless design, you're going to be getting all the movement from the yeast in there. The fluid is all going to be the same.
Click to expand...
 
I monitor CO2 output with a mass flow meter I got for cheap off of Ebay. I added in a calculation that predicts SG also. I think it's a great snapshot of the fermentation. The sugar decrease, alcohol production, and CO2 production go hand in hand, after all. As you watch the graph develop, isn't kind of easy to tell how the fermentation is progressing? Note also the area under the graph represents the total volume of CO2 produced, a direct function of the sugar available.

Lager 10-18-05.jpg
 
Very nice! Seem to me that a mass flow meter is an expensive bubble counter similar to what the OP is trying to achieve, but your application drives home the value of using it as an effective tool. There's been talk here about other things that can effect the flow of gasses in and out of a fermenter. Temperature, air pressure and such. Have you found these things throw off your interpretation of the data or are they insignificant enough that they can easily be factored in?
 
Exbeerienced said:
I monitor CO2 output with a mass flow meter I got for cheap off of Ebay. I added in a calculation that predicts SG also. I think it's a great snapshot of the fermentation. The sugar decrease, alcohol production, and CO2 production go hand in hand, after all. As you watch the graph develop, isn't kind of easy to tell how the fermentation is progressing? Note also the area under the graph represents the total volume of CO2 produced, a direct function of the sugar available.
Click to expand...

WE HAVE A WINNER!

could you post what your setup is? pictures? is the flow meter inline?
 
Joe Dragon said:
Yeah, that's it Revvy. He apparently claimed that bubbles are the only way on earth to explain fermentation. He clearly said "For every bubble an angel gets its wings". He clearly stated that bubble emission is the only way on earth to determine fermentation completion. Yay, your diatribe against anything fun makes this entire post useless. Hell, Tex should delete this post and ban the guy because YOU say his idea is useless!!!
Click to expand...

Hear, hear! It's about time we thinned out the herd in this place! DEATH TO THE BUBBLE COUNTERS!
 

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