Low Mash Efficiency??

Hello - New to all grain brewing and new to the forum.

I have been doing partial mash brewing for a few years so I have a few batches under my belt and thought I should start all grain brewing since I like the details of the brewing process. To get ready for this I bought a new larger kettle, built a mash tun, and built a wort chiller.

I probably made a few mistakes in the process mainly do to poor planning and lack of experience associated with mashing etc..My main problem had to do with calculating mash water, sparge water, and what water to grist ratio I should use. I also had a hard time confirming how much water I used in the mash and sparge, but estimate 4.5 for each. I estimate that I probably got around 6 gallons out. I think next time I am going to mark my kettle with measurements. So all these issues may attribute to my efficiency. Here are the details of my mashing.

Grain Quantity ~ 12.33 lbs
Target Water to Grist Ratio: 1.5 ( I found that this was tough to fit in my 5 gallon mash tun @ 12.33 lbs of grain.)
Strike Water Temp: 167F
Strike Water Volume: 4.5 ga.
Mash Temp: 151F - a bit lower than I wanted and might be due to the fact that I couldn't get all the water I needed to support a 1.5 grist ratio.
Sparge Water Temp 167F
Sparge Volume ~ 4.5 gallons

I estimated I got about 3 gallons of first runnings and about 3 gallons from the sparge

I estimated my pre boil points assuming 6 gallons at about 75.5. I calculated this by taking the PPG for each grain X Lbs of grain / boil volume

I measured my pre boil gravity at 1.044, so 44 PPG. I think this is correct. So to determine eff. I divided 44/75.5 and calculate 58%. Seems pretty low for all the work I did. Even if I was off by .5 gallon + or - my eff. would be between 53%-63%. Assume I have done the calcs correct. Below is my grain bill if somebody wants to check my numbers.

American Pale 2 row: 10 lbs
American Caramel Crystal 40: 1 lbs
American Wheat: 1lbs
American Special Roast: .25 lbs.


Any thoughts on my poor efficiency?

Thanks,

Jared

my sparge water is near boiling.. somewhere around 195f I think your Sparge Water Temp 167F may not be rinsing the grains completely.

First thing I see is that your batch sparge (since you stated second runnings) resulted in a low amount of liquid. When your grain bill is soaked, it will not pull water from the sparge. If you put in 4.5 gallons, you should have gotten out pretty close to 4.5 gallons of wort. Before I built my 52 quart MT, I had a 5 gallon Igloo cooler. I fly sparged instead of batch sparged and got nearly 85% efficiency every time. I would change to fly sparging to improve your efficiency. Also, it should be easier to check your runoff volume by either having a measure stick or running off into a bottling bucket/fermenter that has accurate measurements on.

grimzella said:

my sparge water is near boiling.. somewhere around 195f I think your Sparge Water Temp 167F may not be rinsing the grains completely.

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Most recipes call for sparge water to be at 168F

@ CA_Mouse. Thanks, sounds like I just need to do a better job tracking volume while I mash and sparge. Appreciate the feed back. Fly sparging... I thought about this, but got concerned about complicating things. Would running everything into a bottling buck pose any problems? Would I just need to make sure that I transfer carefully to the kettlle to make sure I don't put air into the wort? Also do you think a 5 gallon mash tun is too small? Maybe I had too much grain, but I was getting nervous about how much grain I had in the mash tun and getting all my water into the mash. After my first running the grain was a little over halfway up my 5 gallon cooler.

Jared

CA_Mouse said:

Most recipes call for sparge water to be at 168F

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sorry cant agree .. batch sparge calls for near boiling water

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/batch-sparge-temperature-73101/

Seems like I've been repeating this a lot lately, but for batch sparge, the temperature makes zero difference and a mashout is unnecessary. I have been sparging with cold water for many years now. I did experiments myself that showed no discernable loss in efficiency using cold water. Kai Troester has shared the results of his extensive research into the subject and has come to the same conclusion. Sorry I don't have a link, but there is a thread in this forum where he shares the results of his testing.

masonsjax said:

Seems like I've been repeating this a lot lately, but for batch sparge, the temperature makes zero difference and a mashout is unnecessary. I have been sparging with cold water for many years now. I did experiments myself that showed no discernable loss in efficiency using cold water. Kai Troester has shared the results of his extensive research into the subject and has come to the same conclusion. Sorry I don't have a link, but there is a thread in this forum where he shares the results of his testing.

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Correct. If you get higher efficiency with warmer water in batch sparging, it may mean incomplete conversion in the mash or a problem like that. You can sparge with cold water and not lose any efficiency.

In any case, I think some of the issues here are the water volumes, the too-small mash tun for the grainbill, and a small preboil volume possibly.

no reason wasting gas on batch\sparge water if its not necessary. pretty sure I also watched a video on boiling water for mash out.. but if you all say its not necc... then Im gonna do it with cold water

Here's one of the threads I was talking about for anyone that's curious.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/cold-water-sparge-110856/

reading now...

I too used to have what I though was unacceptably low efficiency. Then I became seriously anal about measuring my water volumes (including boil-off rate) and lo-and-behold my efficiency jumped about 5 points to ~65%. Remember, too, that BYO magazine, for example, assumes an efficiency of 65% so at 58% you're actually not doing as abysmally as some may suggest. Also it may help to realize that the difference between 55% and 70% efficiency is only about $5/batch. That's real money over time, for sure, but perhaps not worth too much anxiety.

As far as the thread suggested above goes, it's anecdote not evidence--definitely an interesting anecdote, but nevertheless only an anecdote so take it as such and perhaps take a few extra minutes to think about it as such before realigning your entire brewing routine.

Big problem I had when I went to all grain was being patient collecting my runnings and sparging too quickly. No One ever really address' this but I think a lot of newbs do it. How long does it take you to tank up OP?

BigDaddyBeard said:

Big problem I had when I went to all grain was being patient collecting my runnings and sparging too quickly. No One ever really address' this but I think a lot of newbs do it. How long does it take you to tank up OP?

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It seems that the OP is batch sparging, so the time doesn't have to be slow. Actually, it shouldn't be slow, as the point of batch sparging is the time savings.

One thing I thought of though is the stirring. When you stir in your sparge water, you should stir like you mean it. Stir well, then stir a bit more, and then vorlauf and drain. Like a washing machine on rinse, it's the agitation that "knocks" the sugars out of solution so the sparge water should be thoroughly and completely stirred into the grain before vorlaufing.

[EDIT] +1^ Yooper is always right

How well and how long do you stir during mash-in and are you getting all the clumps out?

Your 5 gallon tun is a little small for good and comfortable stirring, but workable. I'm sure your mash is pretty thick (1.25?).

Is your mash temperature on target? I tend to lose 2 degrees each time I open the lid and stir, using a rectangular 52 quart (13 gal) "Extreme" cooler, so I keep it closed, or stir once after 30 minutes, and give it another hot infusion to compensate.

Do you stir the (batch) sparge and let it sit for a few (5) minutes? Just dumping water on top and lautering won't extract well.

Have you measured the gravity of the first, second (and third) runnings? Those are an indication on how well the mash system performs.

There are various mash calculators that come in handy, like this one: mash/sparge water calculator

I use a mud mixer similar to the one in the link below. Using my cordless drill it makes stirring quick and easy. And no dough balls.

http://www.lowes.com/pd_245749-5183...e&utm_source=AskAndAnswer&utm_content=Default

The only reason I heat my sparge water is so I don't spend extra time and gas reheating it to boiling. That said, I don't think I've ever sparged with water warmer than 165-170 and my Sweet Stout I brewed last week I sparged with water about 150, efficiency was still slightly about 80% and it started active fermentation in just about 2 hours after pitching the starter.

grimzella said:

sorry cant agree .. batch sparge calls for near boiling water

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Not sure where you got the information, but Kai has proven that sparge water temp has no influence on efficiency. If you are getting better efficiency with hot sparge water, more power to you. Most software and recipes that I've done and seen are all sparged with 168*F water. I, personally, don't sparge hotter than that (usually about 150*F) and routinely get 80%+ efficiency.

Improper pH range in the mash can cause low efficiency as well. Just some food for thought. I batch sparge (at about 170 degrees for the record) and got a nice boost in efficiency when I started to work my water. I found I needed to acidify my mash because I was a bit high in pH. Once I made adjustments to ensure my mash was in the 5.3 pH range, my efficiency went up. Your pH can affect overall mash health just as much as proper temperature.

From my experience you do want warm water when batch sparging, because sugar more readily dissolves in warm water. But the combination of heat and high pH can extract tannins, even in batch sparging although it tends to known to be more of risk in fly sparging which is why I wouldn't want to go near boiling. But if people are happy with their results with batch sparging with cold water, who am I to say it doesn't work for them? Heck, I may give it try because I actually never considered it.

Yooper said:

It seems that the OP is batch sparging, so the time doesn't have to be slow. Actually, it shouldn't be slow, as the point of batch sparging is the time savings.

One thing I thought of though is the stirring. When you stir in your sparge water, you should stir like you mean it. Stir well, then stir a bit more, and then vorlauf and drain. Like a washing machine on rinse, it's the agitation that "knocks" the sugars out of solution so the sparge water should be thoroughly and completely stirred into the grain before vorlaufing.

Click to expand...

I hadn't been doing this until recently. Figured it wouldn't hurt to try. I stirred my mash at dough in, at 30 minutes and just before vorloff. Drained and my sparge and stirred like I was a witch on Halloween, vorloffed and drained. Increased my efficiency about 4%.

CA_Mouse said:

Not sure where you got the information, but Kai has proven that sparge water temp has no influence on efficiency. If you are getting better efficiency with hot sparge water, more power to you. Most software and recipes that I've done and seen are all sparged with 168*F water. I, personally, don't sparge hotter than that (usually about 150*F) and routinely get 80%+ efficiency.

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I got it from the link I posted.. guess u didn't read it :\

Yooper said:

It seems that the OP is batch sparging, so the time doesn't have to be slow. Actually, it shouldn't be slow, as the point of batch sparging is the time savings.

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The guy at my LHBS suggested slowing down my runnings to about 45-50 mins, due to my low effecency(less than 65%), and since doing this im getting between 75 and 85%, usually on the higher side. I dont know what to tell ya.

Has anyone considered the grain mill as a variable?

grimzella said:

I got it from the link I posted.. guess u didn't read it :\

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I read that thread a long time ago. No proof was given to support hot water increasing efficiency. The debate that hot water rinses sugars from the grain has been bedunked by Kai and Denny as well as many others here. As I said, if you are getting better efficiency using near boiling water, more power to you. I, personally, don't need or want to risk tannins from the grain being too hot. I get great efficiency without using hot water.

Cauchy said:

Has anyone considered the grain mill as a variable?

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I think that figuring out if process is the issue was what everyone was looking at. Milling may not be something that the OP has control over. Additionally, he did note that he probably made several mistakes in regards to his process. Like in all things, correct issues that you have complete control over first and then move on to the things that you have less control over. Could the issue be how his grain was milled? Absolutely. Did he say that he had milled his grains himself? Unknown.

batch sparge equals quick drain for me.. no tannins.. so im not sure what that even means. my batch sparge is drained in about 4-5 min.

MrFeltimo said:

The guy at my LHBS suggested slowing down my runnings to about 45-50 mins, due to my low effecency(less than 65%), and since doing this im getting between 75 and 85%, usually on the higher side. I dont know what to tell ya.

Click to expand...

I'm guessing he means the first runnings... I usually take about 45min.. but once I dump my 190f sparge water, I stir wildly then start draining with valve open about 3/4. done in about 5 min. no risk of tannins

grimzella said:

I'm guessing he means the first runnings... I usually take about 45min.. but once I dump my 190f sparge water, I stir wildly then start draining with valve open about 3/4. done in about 5 min. no risk of tannins

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Just one run for me. Once the 60 min mash is up, I add the rest of the water,ie my sparge water at 180 is, so now I have full volume in my tun, stor like a mad man the run into my kettle really slowly. Problem solved.

All - Thanks for the feedback and sorry for the late feedback. Holiday stuff of course.

So yes I am batch sparging and and I did stir the mash when I poured in the strike water. I probably could have stirred more. As noted I have a 5 gallon mash tun, which hindsight I think is too small. Since my volume measurements our suspect my grist ratio was probably pretty close to 1.2.

I used the mill at the brew shop so I have to rely on their mill settings. Would it be good to run the grain through the mill a couple times for good measure?

Sounds like I probably should have stirred during the sparge as well, which I didn't because I was worried about sediment, which I guess a vorlauf would would have fixed.

I checked the beer today and things are looking pretty good, less volume than I should have but I think we pin-pointed those errors due to my volume estimates.

Actions for my next batch
1. Mark my kettle with accurate markings so I can measure what I put into the mash tun.
2. Pre-heat my mash tun so my mash temp is a bit higher.
3. Stir more.
4. Measure sparge water better.
5. Stir mash again and vorlauf
6. Look at Ph of the water. I think this is probably important, but I want to fix process issues first and then solve the water chemistry issue if there is one.

One question I have is that I don't really know how much water/grain a 5 gallon cooler can hold. Is there a way to estimate this? Not sure how much volume grain takes up on a per lb basis.


Thanks,

Jared

fost9508 said:

One question I have is that I don't really know how much water/grain a 5 gallon cooler can hold. Is there a way to estimate this? Not sure how much volume grain takes up on a per lb basis.


Thanks,

Jared

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Check out this calculator, "can I mash it?" on the Green Bay Racker's websie (scroll down about half way): http://www.rackers.org/calcs.shtml

Don't worry about your water pH- it has no meaning. You can take a look at your alkalinity (bicarbonate/carbonate) levels and it will help, but you need a bit more information on your water than that. The pH doesn't matter, though.

It's great that Kai's work on cold water sparge gets a lot of recognition, but you guys have to be careful about linking and repeating stuff like this as gospel. There are some very specific controls that must be recognized. If someone has some empirical experience with a boost in efficiency when mashing out or sparging with really hot water, the logical assumption is that their mash conversion was boosted during that short ramped temp. What Kai's work basically says is given near 100% conversion in the mash, no addition extraction boost can be expected by sparging hot. This however is not the real world where LHBS grinds are questionably coarse.

My same position is applicable to those who batch sparge and have found gains in long runoff periods. A long runoff is an extra long sacc rest.

Finally, while hot water sparging or mashing out is not NECESSARY, it's certainly not wasteful. It just means you're boiling sooner and anything that shortens the already long brew day is for me.