Why 1.5x the boil for a brewpot?

I see on sites like Blichmann and others that a brewpot is recommended to be 1.5x the size of the boil. Why is that? Is that just to minimize boil-over? Or is there a hop utilization dealy-o? I usually boil 11.5 g in my 12 g pot and have no problems with boil-over. Of course, I watch the pot like a hawk and stand ready on the regulator with a spray bottle. But I've had exactly one boil-over in over 20 batches brewed. So why the much bigger pot recommendation?

I boil 13g for a 10g batch. I suppose I could squeeze that into a 15g pot (and I have) but with a rolling boil the volume increases some and then instead of prepping the rest of the stuff I'll need post boil I have to sit in the hot sun for over an hour staring at the kettle. 20g is a nice comfy fit for a 13g boil, and even with that I've had boilovers.

Some of it has to deal with hot break and some it has to deal with pre-boil volume.
Better to be safe than sorry...

I brewed up an American Wheat AG last night and my hotbreak was monstorous to say the least. I collected 7 gallons in my 15.5gal Keggle Brewpot after Mash out and once the temp got up to boiling my hot break was nearly to the top of the keggle brewpot. Sure glad I had the extra room on top to hold it all without boiling over and creating another mess in my garage.

Redbeard5289

I could have used a bigger pot the other day. I ended up 3/4" from the top edge before I started boiling it. I don't know how but managed to not have a single drop go over the edge. My 8 year old daughter looked at it and said "Daddy. That way too much, it's going to bubble over!" She was all upset about it.

F E R M C A P - S

I boiled 10.5g in a 12g keggle last brew. Never had the slightest inkling of a boilover. It's magic.

tre9er said:

F E R M C A P - S

I boiled 10.5g in a 12g keggle last brew. Never had the slightest inkling of a boilover. It's magic.

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Why more people don't use this product is beyond my understanding.

tre9er said:

F E R M C A P - S

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+1 Not having to babysit a boil (or a starter) is priceless.

I'm seriously considering doing 10g. batches (I just did a 9 that ended up 9.5) in my 12.x gallon keggle. You'd think 0.5g (11.5g boil) isn't much space but with Fermcap, it's at least workable.

I guess what I'm getting at is, is there any reason you couldn't do a 1.5bbl boil in a 55 gal pot?

AmandaK said:

Why more people don't use this product is beyond my understanding.

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I didn't even know this existed until now. Does it have any effect on head retention?

If you use Fermcap S, you should filter your beer. It contains silicone. You could also use a different anti-foam product.

Dana Johnson Brewery Technical Representative BIRKO Corporation said:

Brewers should not use silicone-containing antifoam for unfiltered beers. The FDA allows active silicone to be used up to 10 parts-per-million (ppm) but stipulates that the silicone must be removed prior to packaging by either filtration or centrifugation. In the case of unfiltered beers, use a food grade, non-silicone antifoam.

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http://hbd.org/discus/messages/50162/50540.html?1304008514

Cripes! I just ordered one, thanks for the heads up on this product. I do full 5 gallon boils on an 8 gallon pot so nice to not have to worry, especially when I am still brewing beer in my kitchen on a ceramic top range.

Awwww crap, what else can we use then?

prrriiide said:

I see on sites like Blichmann and others that a brewpot is recommended to be 1.5x the size of the boil. Why is that?

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Notice who is actually making that recommendation? The mfg'er of the kettle I've seen some mfg'ers recommend 2x and some 1.5x. There is no effect on hop utilization.

So long as you aren't boiling over all the time, use what makes you happy

MisterTipsy said:

If you use Fermcap S, you should filter your beer. It contains silicone. You could also use a different anti-foam product.

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You also quoted the MANUFACTURER of a competing product in reference to the "safety" of FermCap-S. That's like the Corn Sugar people saying that High Fructose Corn Sugar is terrible or the HFCS people saying it's safe.

The reality is, when used at the recommended dosage, there is no harmful effects. I've used it for 30+ batches now. No effect on head retention either. Yes, it contains silicone. Food grade silicone. If you can't rack properly, then it might have a chance of getting into your beer. But it drops very quickly. But then again, you should be racking properly (e.g. not dumping your primary into your bottling bucket).

Oh, this type of food grade silicone is used many other places... contact lenses, baby gas drops, in commercial deep fryers to keep the spatter down... All I'm saying is no need to fear-monger.

Take a look at an MSDS for white wine vinegar. Bet you won't cook with that either.

Odds are something else kills you first.

BIRKO simply restates what the FDA recommends. I trust the scientists at the FDA far more than a home brewer's anecdotal experience of 30 batches. The FDA's recommendations are quite clear.

I don't use an anti-foaming agent. If I did, it wouldn't contain silicone.

AmandaK said:

Why more people don't use this product is beyond my understanding.

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I used to use it on every batch, both in the boil and in the fermenter. I've cut back on its use after discovering that it's supposed to be filtered from the beer. Not a big concern, but if I can avoid using it I do.

MisterTipsy said:

BIRKO simply restates what the FDA recommends. I trust the scientists at the FDA far more than a home brewer's anecdotal experience of 30 batches. The FDA's recommendations are quite clear.

I don't use an anti-foaming agent. If I did, it wouldn't contain silicone.

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Yes but has anyone done independent testing showing how much food-grade silicone is remaining after properly fermenting and racking a non-filtered beer? They state that too much silicone is bad for you...yeah, but does it actually end up in your finished product in large enough doses to cause any harm?

What does it do if you eat too much?

tre9er said:

They state that too much silicone is bad for you...yeah, but does it actually end up in your finished product in large enough doses to cause any harm?

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This is my point.

AmandaK said:

This is my point.

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Isn't it sensible to avoid it if possible.

There are non-silicone products out there that do the exact same thing. Same function with less risk (real or perceived).

Edited to not speak for Denny; he does quite well on his own, haha.

TyTanium said:

And I think Denny's point is that there are non-silicone products out there that do the exact same thing. Same function with less risk (real or perceived).

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Yeah, but my real point is that if I can avoid using it by using a soray bottle with wateror keeping my fermentation temp down, or uaing a larger fermenter, I think those are better solutions. Given no other choice I'll still use Fermcap, but I don't toss it in as a matter of course like I used to.

I did the math a few months back and figured .5 mL [is the recommended usage for 5g] is 10ppm in a 5 gallon batch. Yes, it floats on the top so, when racking you leave most of it behind.

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I don't even use nearly that much. I use about 4 drops for a 9g. batch during boil and none in the fermenter unless I'm damn-close (blowoff tube). I use buckets, too, so I've never had much/any blowoff even with 6g. of belgian wit in a 6.5g bucket.

Denny said:

I don't toss it in as a matter of course like I used to.

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I probably won't either. Heck, I didn't use it for months and just carefully watched close boils, adjusted heat, spray bottle, stirring, etc. Now I'm pushing the limits of my kettle doing 9+g. batches in a 12.25g Keggle, so I use it a bit more...but still at WAY below the recommended dosage.

I find a drop or two is enough for boilover prevention. Never needed in a fermenter (big size & low temp, as Denny said).

Denny said:

I used to use it on every batch, both in the boil and in the fermenter. I've cut back on its use after discovering that it's supposed to be filtered from the beer. Not a big concern, but if I can avoid using it I do.

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That's where I'm at, also. I have used it much more in the past, but currently I am reluctant to use it unless I'm having a real issue with boilovers. I haven't used it in the last 8-10 batches, but I have some on hand.

By the way, I have boiled over a 5 gallon batch in a 15.5 gallon keg, so I never really don't watch it- but I have good luck even with 12 gallons in the keg if I watch it like a hawk until after the hot break, and then I can walk away.

tre9er said:

Yes but has anyone done independent testing showing how much food-grade silicone is remaining after properly fermenting and racking a non-filtered beer? They state that too much silicone is bad for you...yeah, but does it actually end up in your finished product in large enough doses to cause any harm?

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In order for BIKO or the FDA to claim filtering your beer removes the silicone to acceptable levels, they have to do some testing. Do you think they would say you need to filter your beer if what is left behind isn't potentially harmful?

10ppm is a very small quantity. You also should account for the fact that you will be consuming many, many gallons of beer over a long period of time. Some substances accumulate in your body over time. I don't know if silicone is one of them.

For example, if you eat a small pinch of arsenic, it won't do much harm. Eat a small pinch of arsenic every day and you are in big trouble.

MisterTipsy said:

BIRKO simply restates what the FDA recommends. I trust the scientists at the FDA far more than a home brewer's anecdotal experience of 30 batches. The FDA's recommendations are quite clear.

I don't use an anti-foaming agent. If I did, it wouldn't contain silicone.

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Having worked closely with the FDA for the past 20 years in pharmaceutical drug development, I'm more likely to believe the home brewer. The entire FDA is filled with political, back-room decision making that is rarely about the science or the best interest of the consumer.

I can guarantee you that no one at the FDA has done anything even resembling a controlled study on the effects of silicone in brewing agents. Most of these recommendations come out of committee meetings where they listed to presentation by competing industry reps, then make a ruling based on which company offers more rounds of free golf. (okay, it's not quite this bad... but close).

/rant

MisterTipsy said:

Do you think they would say you need to filter your beer if what is left behind isn't potentially harmful?

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Yes. Especially if BIKO is better connected and has a more powerful lobby than their competitors. The FDA doesn't run studies like this. They review data presented to them by industry - most of which is heavily biased.

evrose said:

Yes. Especially if BIKO is better connected and has a more powerful lobby than their competitors. The FDA doesn't run studies like this. They review data presented to them by industry - most of which is heavily biased.

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Then go right ahead and eat silicone, Doctor. I'll abstain.

Are you telling the HBT community it's OK to consume whatever silicone is left behind?

Question: Is there a warning label on Fermcap-S that states it's harmful or that you need to filter the beer? Wouldn't you think it would be legally required if it wasn't safe, such as "has been known to cause cancer in labratory rats" on Sweet N Lo?

Sweet n low , didn't always have that warning. A lot of people had to get sick , and sue the company and the FDA for them to put it on

Gameface said:

What does it do if you eat too much?

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Your boobs get bigger!

baddad said:

Sweet n low , didn't always have that warning. A lot of people had to get sick , and sue the company and the FDA for them to put it on

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The product has also been around for a very, very long time, before many new policies were passed pertaining to food and drug safety. Nowadays with the drug commercials and their mile-long list of disclaimers, I'd think they'd have to note this sort of thing on the packaging.

MisterTipsy said:

Then go right ahead and eat silicone, Doctor. I'll abstain.

Are you telling the HBT community it's OK to consume whatever silicone is left behind?

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I'm not saying one thing or another... I'm simply saying that just because some committee at the FDA says something, doesn't make it true. I've known enough FDA docs and scientists, and sat in enough meetings with them to be highly skeptical of any statement like this that they make.

I'd bet my left kidney, 3/4th of my liver, and a 10 gallon batch of Caribou Slobber that there are no long term, controlled studies looking for the health consequences of consuming a couple of drops of a chemical that contains a small fraction of silicone. That doesn't mean it's safe, but it also doesn't mean it's not. I'd also be willing to bet that the ALCOHOL in your beer has more potential health effects than 10ppm of silicone.

Silicone is a pretty inert chemical... It's used in cookware all the time. Heck, I stir my wort with a silicone spoon. It's also a major component in a wide variety of medical devices, including many that are placed internally. It's considered a very safe, biocompatible element.

dallasdb said:

Your boobs get bigger!

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I can only hope.

evrose said:

I'm not saying one thing or another...

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Good move.

dallasdb said:

Your boobs get bigger!

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Sounds like it's time to brew an orange honey wheat beer with extra fermcap-S and have my wife invite her friends over for girls night.