Switching 5500W Element Between 120V & 240V

I have been searching through the forum looking to see if someone has designed a e-biab setup that allows for control of a single element (5500 W) with 120V and 240V (I will be using a pid temperature controller). I would use the 120V for controlling my mash temperature and invoke the 240V to boil. I have seen the following schematic which only shows the 240V portion can this be easily modified with a hand switch to include a 120V option?

Thanks for your help and thoughts!

MT

Why?
The whole point of the ssvr/ potentiometer or pid is it will regulate and control the heat level from the element...
I must be missing something?

The OP probably wants to run the element in 'low density' mode during the mash to prevent any chance of scorching. Sound insurance.

It can be done. You will basically be swapping the second hot lead with the neutral.

If that Switch #1 is a "break before make" style, you can use it.

Find that out and I can help you with rewiring that switch.

'da Kid

Hey MT, I just looked at that switch on Grainger.com and it is NOT rated for that 5500W element.

'da Kid

This one does:
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/NKK-Toggle-Switch-2TPE7?Pid=search

Quite the price difference.

The10mmKid said:

The OP probably wants to run the element in 'low density' mode during the mash to prevent any chance of scorching. Sound insurance.

It can be done. You will basically be swapping the second hot lead with the neutral.

If that Switch #1 is a "break before make" style, you can use it.

Find that out and I can help you with rewiring that switch.

'da Kid

Click to expand...

I guess I'm confused by how he would be using an element inside a rims system inside his boil kettle since he stated its the same element?
I think he just plans on using his boil kettle to heat the mash water or maintain the temp for a herms coil and in that case it makes no sense or am I still missing something?
does he plan on pulling the element and moving it from a rims to a bk or is he doing some sort of BIAB with the element at the bottom maybe? I guess scorching could be possible then.
it just seems like theres got to be an easier way or that it makes more sense to just buy a second 120v element for like $12-$13 at least?

Basically the switch #1 commons will feed the element receptacle.

I would wire the switch:
Pin
1 = empty
2 = Element Receptacle (right)
3 = Feed from the SSR pin #2
4 = Neutral
5 = Hot
6 = Element Receptacle (left)

With the switch having an 'OFF' center, it should be 'break-before-make' switches.

'da Kid

augiedoggy said:

Why?
The whole point of the ssvr/ potentiometer or pid is it will regulate and control the heat level from the element...
I must be missing something?

Click to expand...

The10mmKid is right... I want to operate the 5500 W element in an Ultra Ultra Low Watt Density Mode (approx. 1375 W?) while mashing to prevent/mitigate the chance of scorching. The PID will cycle the element on and off via a SSR; I don't believe the PID/SSR combo will control the voltage to the element.

augiedoggy said:

I guess I'm confused by how he would be using an element inside a rims system inside his boil kettle since he stated its the same element?
I think he just plans on using his boil kettle to heat the mash water or maintain the temp for a herms coil and in that case it makes no sense or am I still missing something?
does he plan on pulling the element and moving it from a rims to a bk or is he doing some sort of BIAB with the element at the bottom maybe? I guess scorching could be possible then.
it just seems like theres got to be an easier way or that it makes more sense to just buy a second 120v element for like $12-$13 at least?

Click to expand...

I will not be using it within a RIMS or HERMS... I am using it in a single vessel with the element at the bottom and using the BIAB method. I would hate to have 2 elements in the bottom of my kettle and running two supply wires to it. Thank you for your suggestion.

The10mmKid... Thanks for your help... Originally this schematic came from P-J... Hopefully he will take a look at this thread and discuss the original switch selection. I will look into the switch you suggested!

Does anyone know if anyone has this type of setup (with a single element running either 120V or 240V in the same kettle)?

Again, thank you all for your help and suggestions!

MT

MT_Keg said:

Does anyone know if anyone has this type of setup (with a single element running either 120V or 240V in the same kettle)?

Click to expand...

El Bobberino does. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/demand-sparge-via-rims-461533/

The10mmKid said:

Hey MT, I just looked at that switch on Grainger.com and it is NOT rated for that 5500W element.

'da Kid

This one does:
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/NKK-Toggle-Switch-2TPE7?Pid=search

Quite the price difference.

Click to expand...

Did a quick search... and found the same switch for a little more than half the price:
http://www.newark.com/nkk-switches/s823-u/switch-toggle-dpdt-30a-250vac/dp/10X9546


- What do you mean by: 'break-before-make'?

- Instead of a toggle switch is there a rotary switch that could be used?

Sorry for so many additional questions!

Thanks for your help and thanks iijakii for that link!

MT

MT_Keg said:

Did a quick search... and found the same switch for a little more than half the price:
http://www.newark.com/nkk-switches/s823-u/switch-toggle-dpdt-30a-250vac/dp/10X9546


- What do you mean by: 'break-before-make'?

- Instead of a toggle switch is there a rotary switch that could be used?

Sorry for so many additional questions!

Thanks for your help and thanks iijakii for that link!

MT

Click to expand...

Break-before-make: If you look at the switch in your link, you have to go through "Off" before switching from one "On" throw to the other. This should make sure that the 240v leg circuit has been opened before the 120v leg circuit is closed, and vice versa. This is critical for this application, as you want to ensure that both circuits are never closed at the same time.

MT_Keg said:

The10mmKid is right... I want to operate the 5500 W element in an Ultra Ultra Low Watt Density Mode (approx. 1375 W?) while mashing to prevent/mitigate the chance of scorching. The PID will cycle the element on and off via a SSR; I don't believe the PID/SSR combo will control the voltage to the element.



I will not be using it within a RIMS or HERMS... I am using it in a single vessel with the element at the bottom and using the BIAB method. I would hate to have 2 elements in the bottom of my kettle and running two supply wires to it. Thank you for your suggestion.

The10mmKid... Thanks for your help... Originally this schematic came from P-J... Hopefully he will take a look at this thread and discuss the original switch selection. I will look into the switch you suggested!

Does anyone know if anyone has this type of setup (with a single element running either 120V or 240V in the same kettle)?

Again, thank you all for your help and suggestions!

MT

Click to expand...

ah yes I did mention that I thought this would be one configuration where it would really make sense... thanks for clarifying. I think bobbym might be able to help as the video in his latest post seems to show a device wired to do exactly what your trying to accomplish. (Although it was for a different use)

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/demand-sparge-via-rims-461533/

A center OFF is good but a simple double throw switch would never be connected to both sources unless the contact was severly distorted, as in lengthened. The center OFF is just a resting place, otherwise it is the same inside.

MT_Keg said:

I want to operate the 5500 W element in an Ultra Ultra Low Watt Density Mode (approx. 1375 W?) while mashing to prevent/mitigate the chance of scorching. The PID will cycle the element on and off via a SSR; I don't believe the PID/SSR combo will control the voltage to the element.

Click to expand...

Use SSVR with potentiometer and PID's relay output.
This way you can gradually control a power.

Brumateur said:

Use SSVR with potentiometer and PID's relay output.
This way you can gradually control a power.

Click to expand...

I contacted Auberins; they stated the following: "Actually the SSVR could not work with any of the controllers. They are exclusive."

Why would Auberins state this?... Is the SSVR not meant for this application?

I am not 100% sure how this would operate and what type of resolution I would get... Would I truly be able to turn down 240V down to 120V and everywhere in between?... or would I be controlling the amperage to the element keeping the voltage constant?

I am going to take a gander on the site to find some examples. If you guys have any examples of the above that would be awesome!

Thank you all for your help!... Again, sorry for all the questions!

MT

MT_Keg said:

I contacted Auberins; they stated the following: "Actually the SSVR could not work with any of the controllers. They are exclusive."

Click to expand...

It's correct in terms that you must not connect PID's SSR output to SSVR. If you do so you'll just break the PID.
But SSVR can be connected to PID's mechanical relay output. Some PIDs has only SSR output or only relay output. However other PIDs (like Auber SYL-2362) can be programmed to use either SSR or relay as an output.

I am not 100% sure how this would operate and what type of resolution I would get... Would I truly be able to turn down 240V down to 120V and everywhere in between?... or would I be controlling the amperage to the element keeping the voltage constant?

Click to expand...

According to Omh law for passive load you cant change voltage and keep amperage constant or vice versa. If you decreasing voltage your amps goes down as well. If you decreasing amps it means voltage increased too.

Rotating potentiometer connected to SSVR you are gradually changing Voltage (and Amperage) from 0 to Max.

If you already have that SYL-2352 PID MT, then you are back to wiring 120V to the toggle switch.

Brumatueur's PID is a relay output type. Very easy to wire also, just need to give the otput some voltage verses the PID making it's own (12VDC in your case)

Did you find a 30A rotary? If you meant a selector switch (like ON-left/OFF-middle/ON-right), they are more common. 30A is still a heck of a contact.

'da Kid

The10mmKid and Brumateur... thank you all for your help in understanding the options and how to get it done. I am going to ponder which route I want to go... haven't bought anything yet! I am not sure if i really need more granularity in my control of the element wattage.

My initial plan was to setup and auto-tune the PID to 120V, heat the water to my mash temperature and let the 120V circuit control the mash temperature. Once I mashout and remove the grain from the kettle I would switch to 240V mode and control the boil manually via the PID... essentially I will get a 1375 W OR a 5500 W element.

On the other hand I would have to use the Rheostat to dial in my preferred mashing wattage (anywhere between 0 W and 5500 W) and auto-tune the PID (I will have a volt meter and ammeter on the panel to verify the wattage to the element with each brew). The PID will then control my mash temperature at my dialed in mash wattage. Once I mashout and remove the grain from the kettle I would turn the rheostat to full power and control the boil manually via the PID.

I do know one thing... I am probably better off getting a SYL-2362 because of the flexability.

'da Kid... I gave up trying to find a rotary replacement for the toggle... better I think I am better off with the toggle if I go that route.

The10mmKid said:

...Very easy to wire also, just need to give the output some voltage verses the PID making it's own (12VDC in your case)

Click to expand...

What did you mean by the above statement? Do you have a diagram/example that describes this a little better? I can't seem to get my head wrapped around it.

Thanks,

MT

The PID's with relay output are called "dry contacts"
They are just like your contactor . . . . . just way less amp capacity.

You need to supply the voltage to these 'dry contacts' that's required for your SSR. (would be 3-35VDC on the circuit you provided)

We use 240V SSR's at work.

240V control
240V Load

The SSR handles the 25A load while the PID has a light job of 'firing' the SSR.


FYI, I like your initial plan. You can set your temp to 225degF for boil and it will be full power as water will never get above ~212

'da Kid

After a little more research I have decided to go with the 120V/240V method with the DPDT switch and a PID... I feel the SSVR is overkill.

I will try and draft up a complete circuit diagram for your review.

Thank you all for your knowledge!!

MT

SSVR solution is simpler than wiring extra switch and you will have more flexibility.