Kegging Question

Ive got a 5-gallon batch of American Amber fermenting. When she's ready to go, I've got two 3-gallon Corny Kegs that I will fill evenly. My kegerator can only fit one at a time, so my question is this: with the keg I am not drinking right away, should I pressurize at force carbonation levels and refrigerate? Or should I just let it age in a pressurized keg but not refrigerate it, and just use it as a secondary fermenter?

I guess what I'm asking is should I be doing anything in particular with the keg I am not drinking first?

jmadway said:

Or should I just let it age in a pressurized keg but not refrigerate it, and just use it as a secondary fermenter?

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That's what I would do. The tacitly implicit fact of the matter is the tapped keg isn't quite mature yet as you drink it. The required patience becomes easier as you brew more, and the pipeline becomes filled beyond your ability to drain it. (I am currently out of kegs, bottles, and even 2L bottles are becoming scarce, with another 10 gals still sitting on over aged yeast cakes in their secondaries. Despite this, I've managed to become beer-stingy, as my friends and neighbors have one by one proven themselves not beer-worthy. What to do... what to do...)

x2 for aging. Purge the oxygen out of keg #2, and let it riiide.

I concur, let it age and purge the O2. The second keg will be better than the first. Now just brew more and you will have to age it all

I have left full kegs sit for weeks if not months with no adverse flavours.

Brent

And no refrigeration necessary?

jmadway said:

And no refrigeration necessary?

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Nope. I store kegs at room temp all of the time. I pressurize it at 30psi for a week or two, then let them sit for months. When its time to serve, I throw it in the fridge and 24 hours later, they're chilled, perfectly carbonated and ready to serve.

What you could do is prime the second keg with corn sugar, so that as it sits it carbs up and when you stick it in the kegerator (if it's been about two weeks), it'll be carbed up, conditioned, and ready to be consumed.

Yooper said:

What you could do is prime the second keg with corn sugar, so that as it sits it carbs up and when you stick it in the kegerator (if it's been about two weeks), it'll be carbed up, conditioned, and ready to be consumed.

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That's a nice alternative if you don't have dual regulators or a second co2 tank. I like it!

I wouldn't prime the keg with sugar, just hit it with about 30psi to get it to seal up nice (after you purge the atmospheric air from it). If you hit it with sugar to prime, you'll need to use less than if you were bottling the same volume. You'll also have much more sediment in the bottom of the keg.

IMO/IME, carbonating with CO2 gives you much tighter control over how much carbonation you'll have in the brew. Much more so than when using sugar to prime.

What size kegorator do you have that can only hold one keg? I can fit four into my brew fridge. Most kegorators can easily fit at lease two kegs, plus CO2 tank. I have my tank(s) outside the fridge, with two bulkheads installed (to feed two pressure sets to manifolds).

Golddiggie said:

I wouldn't prime the keg with sugar, just hit it with about 30psi to get it to seal up nice (after you purge the atmospheric air from it). If you hit it with sugar to prime, you'll need to use less than if you were bottling the same volume. You'll also have much more sediment in the bottom of the keg.

IMO/IME, carbonating with CO2 gives you much tighter control over how much carbonation you'll have in the brew. Much more so than when using sugar to prime.

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That's true, but if you don't have multiple co2 tanks its kind of a pain in the butt. You have to hit it with 30psi everyday until it regulates to 30psi. This requires, removing the gas from the current keg, gassing up the next keg everyday for about a week and if you store the kegs in another location, its alot of back and forth.

You would get more sediment but if you don't move the keg, it clears up pretty quick. Plus you do get some control once you put the keg in the kegerator.

I agree force carbing kegs is preferred but corn sugar in a pinch or if you want it to mimic a bottle conditioned clone is a nice alternative.

Goldiggie - I've got a small converted dorm fridge. Might be able to get the 2nd keg in there if I were to put the CO2 outside the fridge.

If I just purge the CO2, but don't force carbonate at 30psi, and let it sit, am I risking anything? Or does that just mean I will need to force carbonate prior to tapping it?

Golddiggie said:

If you hit it with sugar to prime, you'll need to use less than if you were bottling the same volume. You'll also have much more sediment in the bottom of the keg.

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Yes, you'd add a whooping 1.5 ounces of priming sugar! There wouldn't be "much more sediment" in the keg at all. That's ridiculous nonsense. Possibly there may be a tad bit more- maybe. But probably not.

Either way, it'll settle out and be gone after the first 2 ounces are poured.

I've done this myself, so I speak from experience. The "extra" sediment is balooney. You're talking about a negligible amount of priming sugar, really, and a negligible amount of potential "extra sediment".

jmadway said:

If I just purge the CO2, but don't force carbonate at 30psi, and let it sit, am I risking anything? Or does that just mean I will need to force carbonate prior to tapping it?

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You're not risking a thing. But if you don't prime it or force carbonate it, you will need to do so at some point before you drink it.

And at 30psi hooked up to a tank and regulator, how long does it take to force carbonate?

jmadway said:

And at 30psi hooked up to a tank and regulator, how long does it take to force carbonate?

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In the fridge, about 2 days. At room temperature, about 2 weeks.

Yooper said:

I've done this myself, so I speak from experience. The "extra" sediment is balooney. You're talking about a negligible amount of priming sugar, really, and a negligible amount of potential "extra sediment".

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I dig it. I've got a trippel on deck and can't wait to give it a whirl.

Yooper said:

In the fridge, about 2 days. At room temperature, about 2 weeks.

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In the fridge, 30 psi gives about 4 volumes of CO2, way over carbonated. 10 psi at 40^F, or 15 psi at 50^F is about right for 2.3 volumes. See this chart:

http://www.kegerators.com/carbonation-table.php

Shake it or rock it if you're in a hurry. Over-pressurizing to rush it along is completely hit or miss, usually miss.

Since you're intending to condition it pressurized at room temperature, I would pressurize to the tabulated pressure (about 30 psi), and shake it none too gently until it stops taking gas. It's fully carbonated at that point. Disconnect the gas line, and store the sealed keg. Treat it as you would any other unopened can of beer. Refrigerate to serving temperature when you're ready to tap. Use the tabulated pressure for your serving temperature and gas volume.

MikeYoung said:

In the fridge, 30 psi gives about 4 volumes of CO2, way over carbonated.

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The question was " how long does it take to force carbonate?". I think what Yooper means is 30 psi for 2 days refrigerated to get it from flat to about 2.5 volumes. After 2 days you back it off to a constant 10-15 psi. Basically you get carbonated beer in 2 days instead of waiting 2 weeks at 10-15 psi (or 2 weeks at room temp at 30psi).

It would be like carbonating at 90 psi at room temperature for 2 days, but whose gonna do that

This thread has a solid guide to carbonating in a keg: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f35/keg-force-carbing-methods-illustrated-73328/

Chart I've been using to determine what pressure to set my kegs at can be found here: http://www.kegerators.com/carbonation-table.php Many people follow this chart when it comes to kegging.

I've had good results with Bobby_M's method so far. It is important to follow the steps as outlined. Since I also have additional CO2 tanks, and regulators, I can put pressurize kegs that are not going into the brew fridge for storage. I did just get the keg pressure tester item from Williams (arrived today) so I can now see how much pressure the kegs outside the brew fridge have their contents under. Having that information can only be a good thing.

Golddiggie said:

I did just get the keg pressure tester item from Williams (arrived today) so I can now see how much pressure the kegs outside the brew fridge have their contents under. Having that information can only be a good thing.

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Keg pressure testers are nice. I built one myself, but it's nice to see they're selling them now.

scoundrel said:

That's true, but if you don't have multiple co2 tanks its kind of a pain in the butt. You have to hit it with 30psi everyday until it regulates to 30psi. This requires, removing the gas from the current keg, gassing up the next keg everyday for about a week and if you store the kegs in another location, its alot of back and forth.

You would get more sediment but if you don't move the keg, it clears up pretty quick. Plus you do get some control once you put the keg in the kegerator.

I agree force carbing kegs is preferred but corn sugar in a pinch or if you want it to mimic a bottle conditioned clone is a nice alternative.

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I also use this technique (sometimes) when I want to keg some AND bottle some. Mix up sterilized sugar solution. Add to sanitized Keg. Rack beer from primary to keg. Gas/vent/gas/vent/gas to purge oxygen and provide low pressure for bottling. Bottle some using picnic tap to bottling thingy. Let rest that is left in keg carbonate naturally. (I sometimes will also just keg it and carb using co2 and then bottle some later.)

copyright1997 said:

I also use this technique (sometimes) when I want to keg some AND bottle some. Mix up sterilized sugar solution. Add to sanitized Keg. Rack beer from primary to keg. Gas/vent/gas/vent/gas to purge oxygen and provide low pressure for bottling. Bottle some using picnic tap to bottling thingy. Let rest that is left in keg carbonate naturally. (I sometimes will also just keg it and carb using co2 and then bottle some later.)

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Love it! I'm gonna do that too. Thanks!

scoundrel said:

That's true, but if you don't have multiple co2 tanks its kind of a pain in the butt. You have to hit it with 30psi everyday until it regulates to 30psi. This requires, removing the gas from the current keg, gassing up the next keg everyday for about a week and if you store the kegs in another location, its alot of back and forth.

You would get more sediment but if you don't move the keg, it clears up pretty quick. Plus you do get some control once you put the keg in the kegerator.

I agree force carbing kegs is preferred but corn sugar in a pinch or if you want it to mimic a bottle conditioned clone is a nice alternative.

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How about this for my 5-gallon batch/two 3-gallon kegs/1-keg fitting kegerator/1 co2 and regulator question at the top of this thread?

Keg #1: fill it, purge it of oxygen, hit it with 30psi in the kegerator for 2 days, then store it in my kitchen fridge until done with keg #2.

Keg #2: fill it, purge it of oxygen, hit it with 30psi in the kegerator for 2 days, then reduce to 10-12psi to tap.

Any problem with this?

This is good to know. I to have started kegging and have to look for F&Qs Thanks all. Cheers

jmadway said:

How about this for my 5-gallon batch/two 3-gallon kegs/1-keg fitting kegerator/1 co2 and regulator question at the top of this thread?

Keg #1: fill it, purge it of oxygen, hit it with 30psi in the kegerator for 2 days, then store it in my kitchen fridge until done with keg #2.

Keg #2: fill it, purge it of oxygen, hit it with 30psi in the kegerator for 2 days, then reduce to 10-12psi to tap.

Any problem with this?

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For Keg #1, just make sure that after two days it maintains pressure. Make or buy one of these https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f35/how-make-cheap-psi-guage-226115/ . After your two days at 30psi (assuming the beer is already cold) , the beer will absorb the CO2 and equalize between 10-15psi. If it falls below that, you can hit it with 15psi for a day or two until it holds steady. Once you have the psi around 10-12 psi and it holds steady, you can store it in the fridge without the CO2 connected.

Keg #2. That's what I do, just make sure the beer is cold first (36-38 degrees)

scoundrel said:

For Keg #1, just make sure that after two days it maintains pressure. Make or buy one of these https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f35/how-make-cheap-psi-guage-226115/ . After your two days at 30psi (assuming the beer is already cold) , the beer will absorb the CO2 and equalize between 10-15psi. If it falls below that, you can hit it with 15psi for a day or two until it holds steady. Once you have the psi around 10-12 psi and it holds steady, you can store it in the fridge without the CO2 connected.

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Here's one pre-made. Disclaimer: I don't own it (but am thinking of getting one).

scoundrel said:

For Keg #1, just make sure that after two days it maintains pressure. Make or buy one of these https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f35/how-make-cheap-psi-guage-226115/ . After your two days at 30psi (assuming the beer is already cold) , the beer will absorb the CO2 and equalize between 10-15psi. If it falls below that, you can hit it with 15psi for a day or two until it holds steady. Once you have the psi around 10-12 psi and it holds steady, you can store it in the fridge without the CO2 connected.

Keg #2. That's what I do, just make sure the beer is cold first (36-38 degrees)

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Awesome. Thanks for this tips, Scoundrel.

MikeYoung said:

In the fridge, 30 psi gives about 4 volumes of CO2, way over carbonated. 10 psi at 40^F, or 15 psi at 50^F is about right for 2.3 volumes. See this chart:

http://www.kegerators.com/carbonation-table.php

Shake it or rock it if you're in a hurry. Over-pressurizing to rush it along is completely hit or miss, usually miss.

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Those pressures only give you over carbed beer if you leave it on that pressure long enough to come to equilibrium.

When I keg a new batch I set the regulator to 30, shake like crazy, then put it in the fridge under 35 or 40 psi overnight while it chills. Next day vent excess pressure, set regulator to 30, and shake again for a bit. At this point I have slightly under carbed but perfectly drinkable beer. Then I just set it at serving pressure, have a few that evening, and it's usually dead on the next day, or the day after that at the longest.

Besides, there's nothing wrong with "hit or miss". It's an outstanding way to learn things. And with beer, the only consequence of missing is getting an opportunity to run to the store for a 6-pack of some new variety you've been wanting to try out.

Then again, I am by nature and impatient person, so by the time a beer is ready for the keg I feel like I've put in my share of patience on that batch. I'm not going to wait 2 weeks for "perfect" carbonation when I can get to "pretty damn close" in 24 hours.

jmadway said:

Awesome. Thanks for this tips, Scoundrel.

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Anytime! Glad I could help

Does the amount of brew I'm force carbonating matter in terms of the amount of time necessary at 30psi? So if I'm carbonating 2 1/2 gallons, should I still do it for 2 days?

jmadway said:

Does the amount of brew I'm force carbonating matter in terms of the amount of time necessary at 30psi? So if I'm carbonating 2 1/2 gallons, should I still do it for 2 days?

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Yes you should still do it for 2 1/2 days. psi is pounds per square inch. In this case its 30, so the pressure is the same whether you have 5 gallons or 2 1/2 gallons.

I just finished with my 2 1/2 days of force carbonating each of my 2 kegs at 30psi. I have reduced the pressure to 10psi for serving and while the beer seems to be appropriately carbonated, I am getting very, very foamy pours. Little tiny bubbles are gathering at the top of my beer line close to my shank, as well as towards the middle of the line.

Does the beer just need to settle after being so highly pressurized? Is it over carbonated? I do not believe there is anything wrong with the line itself and the temp in the kegerator is plenty cold. How can I fix this?

It may be overcarbed. Tricks used to speed up force carbing of beer, like putting it on high pressure for a couple of days and/or shaking the keg, tend to do that.

Or it may just be that you need a longer beer line. I run 11 feet of beer line on my kegs that I'm serving at 10 to 12 psi. How long is your line? What is the temperature in your refrigerator? What is your serving pressure? What diameter beer line are you using?

My lines are 3/16" and are about 12' long. I had lots of foam and the beer was flat-ish before I lengthened the lines.

B

billtzk said:

It may be overcarbed. Tricks used to speed up force carbing of beer, like putting it on high pressure for a couple of days and/or shaking the keg, tend to do that.

Or it may just be that you need a longer beer line. I run 11 feet of beer line on my kegs that I'm serving at 10 to 12 psi. How long is your line? What is the temperature in your refrigerator? What is your serving pressure? What diameter beer line are you using?

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My beer line is 5 feet, frig temp is 36*. Took my serving pressure down to 5psi for the day and that seemed to do the trick when I poured a pint this eve.

If I leave the pressure that low will I get flat beer eventually? Should I lengthen my beer line and up the pressure back to 10-12psi?

http://www.kegerators.com/carbonation-table.php

8 psi will do it at 36^F. If it was at 30 psi, there's little doubt in my mind it was simply over carb'ed. The bubbles you saw was the excess gas coming out of solution at the 10 psi serving pressure. 30 psi at that temp is 4.40 volumes. 5 psi is good for 2.0 volumes, not completely unreasonable depending on the style.

scoundrel said:

Yes you should still do it for 2 1/2 days. psi is pounds per square inch. In this case its 30, so the pressure is the same whether you have 5 gallons or 2 1/2 gallons.

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Um... Not to be a dick, but wtf?

You carb beer by volumes of co2, not by time at psi. In the same container, at the same pressure, and the same temperature, it will take less time to force 2.5 volumes of gas into 2 gallons of liquid than it will to force 2.5 volumes of gas into 5 gallons.

Sheesh, that seems like common sense.

Obviously smaller amounts of beer will carb faster than larger amounts. Why would you tell him he has to leave it for the same amount of time?

Think it through, bro.....

I'm sure you meant well, but the advice you gave just demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of how the process actually works....

subliminalurge said:

Um... Not to be a dick, but wtf?

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Want to know how I knew this post was going to be dickish?


This...

subliminalurge said:

You carb beer by volumes of co2, not by time at psi. In the same container, at the same pressure, and the same temperature, it will take less time to force 2.5 volumes of gas into 2 gallons of liquid than it will to force 2.5 volumes of gas into 5 gallons.

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...is helpful (maybe? I don't know the mechanics of force carbing)

These:...

subliminalurge said:

Sheesh, that seems like common sense.

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...

subliminalurge said:

Obviously smaller amounts of beer will carb faster than larger amounts. Why would you tell him he has to leave it for the same amount of time?

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...

subliminalurge said:

Think it through, bro.....

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subliminalurge said:

I'm sure you meant well, but the advice you gave just demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of how the process actually works....

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...are NOT helpful, and just....

subliminalurge said:

...Um... being a dick ...wtf

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I'm not a mod or anything, but tone like this isn't appreciated by anyone. I cringed just reading it. You'll get a lot more positive response to your advice in the future if you don't frame it so negatively.