traditional and ancient recipes, scottish preferred?

im looking for some pretty traditional styles of beer, some old recipes of beers made long before the invention of refridgeration.. so preferably pre 1800s if i can find any recipes this old.. im fine drinking my beer warm in a more traditional fashion

anyway.. im mostly looking for scottish types, decended from a highlander clan, i also practice swordfighting and play bagpipes, so i guess its only fitting that i experiment with some old scottish ale recipes

preferably.. id like recipes that i could make these beers from scratch, without the use of pre-made malts... does anyone have any good leads on such recipes?

right now my brewing equipment is a complete equipment. hydrometer, hoses, valves and what not.. only thing is im using a 1 gallon glass jug right now for experimentation purposes, and ill step it up to a 5 gallon glass jug when i tune in on the right recipe...

so, any help or information would be much appreciated

Fellow Scot here although I now live in California. Made an 80 shilling for my first batch. Didn't turn out very well though, but it must have been me because my brother in law made the same thing and it was delicious.

Can't really offer any really old suggestions I'm afraid. Why not start with a kit or 2 of the obvious choices such as a 70/80 shilling or a Wee Heavy? You could develop your own recipe from there.

Also, 1 gallon is not very much beer considering the time it will take to make and how long you will have to ferment it for.

well.. im also a bit of a minimalist.. and many of these recipes use like 4-5 different malts, and i know in the middle ages and renaissance periods they didnt use, heck, regionally they didnt have all these malt varieties people are using now... so i guess im going to have to get about a pound of each of a variety of different types of malts common in scotland in that time period and experiment... peated malt seems to be a major one.. so i might start there as my primary malt, order that and a couple other malts common to the area and just go for it.. brew a gallon at a time and see what i come up with i guess.. and history dictates that i shouldnt use hops.. but instead alternative, older bittering agents like gruit, sage, heather, etc

There's a bunch of links to historical recipes here https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/beer-history-sites-58021/

There's quite a few 1800's recipes scattered in there, and for english/scottish (maybe) look for the Society for Creative anacronism link I put in there (post 7 has the sca stuff in it.)

well, peated malt, pale ale malt and roasted barley with northern hops and scottish ale yeast would be a nice start to making a wee heavy... maybe i should start with a simple wee heavy recipe as a starting point... then i can experiment with removing the hops for gruit and convert it into a recipe that would have been possible in medieval scotland

Heather ale?

would a heather ale be a good example of a pre-hops scottish ale?

im really thinking about finding a SIMPLE.. basic wee heavy recipe, and work my way from there to make something using more archaic ingredients..., however, most recipes i find use 4-5 different malts, then another 4-5 different yeasts and i know this cant be all that traditional... so im looking for something that uses one type of hops, and 1 or two grain malts.. if anyone knows of any like this that are good, id love to know...

i guess i could get a IBU ratio to match that of a wee heavy using northern hops with a combination of peated malt and either roasted barley or pale ale malt... anyone think this is a good idea?... if so, i would just buy a small quantity of the hops, peated malt, roasted barley malt, and pale ale malt and experiment with various combinations of two of the three, or try single malt ales and see what i come up with... i guess if i tried each one with the same yeast and each malt in a single malt beer i could taste the differences in the malt and find a ratio based on the flavors i get from them

i guess thatll be my goal for beer making, traditional ingredients, and minimalistic recipes

so theres my list of supplies... northern hops, scottish ale yeast, pale ale malt, roasted barley malt, and the peated malt.. im going to make one batch of each malt in a single malt, single hop type ale and taste these in their purest form to understand how the different malts add different flavors to the beer... after that i can begin to experiment with trying different varieties of hops, and other bittering agents and yeasts... going to shoot for a general scottish style, most likely closer to a wee heavy

I really dont think youll be happy with the results of a peated malt SMaSH....or a roasted barley SMaSH...really when doing SMaSH recipes youd need to use a base malt as your single malt type.

BTW - Before hops they did use heather as a bittering agent in beer. Might want to check into spruce tips as well. Good luck

jeeperforlife said:

i really dont think youll be happy with the results of a peated malt smash....or a roasted barley smash...really when doing smash recipes youd need to use a base malt as your single malt type.

Btw - before hops they did use heather as a bittering agent in beer. Might want to check into spruce tips as well. Good luck

Click to expand...

+1

Sorry it's Irish, and not scottish but it is about bronze age brewing techniques.

Careful with the peated malt, a little can go a long ways. I've also seen varying opinions on whether or not it was used in historical recipes anyways, it seems like it might be more of a recent addition to try to mimic the slight smoked flavor you'd get from drying malts historically anyways.

If you've got them available, or care to get them, I think Designing Great Beers goes into some of the historical methods for Scottish Ales and Radical Brewing does a good job on pre-hops bittering agents (both also excellent books in general and would highly recommend in any case).

I can't remember what the malt grist historically was (also depends on whether you want to go pre- or post- roasting technology). I do remember that they were usually partigyles for the different strengths (high, medium, and low) and blended to give the shillings in between. Kettle carmelization was also a big component, several hours of boiling really did a number on those sugars. You can mimic that by taking some of the first runnings and boiling them down to almost lme consistency.

hmm.. what would the "base malts" be?

straight up "barley wine" seems to be a more old fashioned beer, peated would be a later scottish ale component.. theres one recipe online for a 5000 year old recipe but it would take a while shopping around to find all the components neccessary for it, and doesnt seem too authentic either

if you really want to do a throwback, try making a stein beer. bring and maintain your boil with glowing hot rocks. thats how they had to do it in the old days

at this point i think im most interested in single hops, single, or only a couple malts... id like to find more simplistic, basic recipes and not really copy anyones more in depth creation just yet... with every recipe in cooking theres always a basic, and people are free to add to that, but im looking for something simpler right now... so if anyone has any good ideas for a single hop, single, or maybe double malt recipe that would get me something in a scottish ale fashion, i think thats what ill make first

oh.. base malts, you mean two-row malts.. i get it now.. so basically a pale ale malt would be best to use.. try it plain, and then try recipes adding other malts to the pale ale base... that makes sense... its like flour to bread, and the other malts are additional flavorings

In that case, for your base malt I'd either go with Golden Promise (scottish) or Maris Otter (british). If you were so inclined you could smoke a little yourself on a charcoal grill to get some of that smoky flavor, but the yeast can also impart some of that. If you wanted a second malt a little roasted barley would definitely be in line with the style. For hops you're really only using them for bittering, so any would do. If you wanted to be true to style, a British variety (EKG, Fuggles, etc.) would work.

Also, I'd suggest taking a bit of your first runnings and carmelizing them like I mentioned before. With just the two malts you'll need a little depth. I brewed a wee heavy this past weekend and the carmelized wort tasted delicious before dumping it back into the boil. Use one of the Scottish yeasts (like wyeast 1728) and ferment at a low temp (58-60 degrees). Good luck!

good information there.. reading descriptions, it sounds like EKG hops would be more along the lines of what im looking for, the only facilities i have for fermentation is room temperature... the scottish ale yeast ferments at up to 75 degrees as well.. so id be within the range of the yeast.. edinburgh stuff too which is suppsed to add a smokey flavor.. so i have a couple options there

i COULD build a plywood box with a thermostat and heating/ventilation to maintain a temperature, but that would go against keeping it simple

this is all making a good arguement to grow barley, rather than wheat as my primary cereal grain when i start growing my own food :-D

edinburgh yeast sounds like id probably like it more, but eventually ill have tried both.. just need to decide on a malt now

a book I have, "The Homebrewer's Garden" has several old style recipes. Including a recipe for a heather ale which originated from the ancient Picts in scotland, and a recipe for "mumm" which was a heavily spiced and herbed ale from medieval times.

I'll have to post back later with the recipes, I don't have the book on me at the moment

I remember reading that when Scott's malted their barley they would skim the floaters because they weren't going to malt. They roasted the floaters. So historically it would be a pretty simple grist going from that. Low hops because they weren't native and they didn't want to pay the English anymore than they had to.

yeah, i plan to go light on the hops at first, then try to remove it entirely and experiment with mixes of gruit... so hermit, youre saying to be a more historical scottish ale i should in fact add a small amount of roasted barley to simulate the process of skimming and roasting the floaters?

golden promise malt
roasted barley malt
edinburgh yeast
EKG hops

how does that sound for a list of ingredients?.. ill try to order it tomorrow...

one question for hermit... in this traditional scottish brewing you read about.. did it ever mention approximately what percentage of the malt was skimmed and roasted?

animus_divinus said:

yeah, i plan to go light on the hops at first, then try to remove it entirely and experiment with mixes of gruit... so hermit, youre saying to be a more historical scottish ale i should in fact add a small amount of roasted barley to simulate the process of skimming and roasting the floaters?

golden promise malt
roasted barley malt
edinburgh yeast
EKG hops

how does that sound for a list of ingredients?.. ill try to order it tomorrow...

one question for hermit... in this traditional scottish brewing you read about.. did it ever mention approximately what percentage of the malt was skimmed and roasted?

Click to expand...

I don't remember where I read it, it was just one of those things that stuck when I did because it seemed like a nice simple explanation. Doesn't make it true though. No percentages listed though. It could have varied by malt batch too.

OK. Just checked. It is from Ray Daniel's book, "Designing Great Beers". He goes into the history pretty well. I'd recommend the book overall. He just says the roast barley from the floaters is added back in 'small amounts'.

+1 to PolishStout. The Homebrewer's Garden is a great resource in terms of brewing with herbs/spices.

I also really love the book Sacred and Herbal Healing Beers, which covers a lot of ground in terms of brewing herbs/spices. It's kind of woo woo, but has lots of interesting history/info regarding herbs and is full of interesting recipes for all kinds of herbal brews. There is a great section on heather and another on gruit ale. (it also has a totally interesting section on hops with a pretty unique take on the history of hops as a beer ingredient.)

Both those books have some basic info on malting also, if you're looking at malting your own grains.

Good luck! I'm definitely curious to see where this project takes you.

well, ill have to check out homebrewers garden... but "designing great beers" seems to be the bible everyone follows, so ill definitely get that soon... also, i did get the beersmith software and im punching in some numbers to characterize the ingredients i intend to use.. and the guidelines for the kind of beer id like to make... so this is going to be a huge help in making a simple scottish ale

hmm... beersmith says that for a 1 gallon batch, my ingredients should be

3lbs golden promise malt
2 ounces roasted barley malt
1/3 ounce east kent golding hops
1 gallon water
and 1/5 vial of edinburgh scottish ale yeast

these ingredients create...

OG: 1.086
FG: 1.022
color: 19.8 SRM
bitterness: 23 IBU
and an estimated ABV of 8.4%

does this sound like a suitable recipe for a 1 gallon test batch? or does something seem off here?

im trying to understand the caramelization process for a 1 gallon final product... do i start out with a gallon and boil it down to syrup, then add more water to reach the gallon i need and ferment? how does this work for a 1 gallon test brew?

Caramelization in a 1 gal batch is gonna be tough. When I was doing mine I used a couple of quarts of the first runnings, but I've got no idea what the final product is gonna taste like. One thing you could do would be to collect 2-2.5 gal. of wort and boil it down to 1 gal. That should get you some of the same caramelization, without having to try to figure out how much to boil down.

well, i only have a 1 gallon carboy to do the fermentation in... so my final product needs to be 1 gallon... if i boiled 2.5 gallons down to 1 gallon it would be too syrupish, wouldnt it?... do i boil down my 3lbs or so of grains with a gallon of water for 90 minutes or so until its syrup and then add water back into it to water it down again and then boil in the hops?.. im just not sure how the kettle caramelization is supposed to work.. also, did that recipe of mine sound reasonable?

anyone?

Years ago I fell in love with Fraoch heather ale. I found a "clone" recipe on Beertools here. I brewed it once, but I've been considering doing it again, only all grain. It was really tasty.

i have a lot of stuff on my list to try now... the wee heavy recipe im working on now, primitive heather ales and gruit ales, and much later on i wouldnt mind trying wheat or rye beer just to give it a chance

also, at this point im trying to understand when beer was actually carbonated, during the middle ages and prior im not sure they really understood the process enough to actively carbonate a beverage, and that any carbonization was the result of natural carbonization in a sealed container... i dont think they knew enough to "prime" the bottles, but i could be wrong, im trying to find more information on that

im my studies, it seems to me that ale was never carbonated in any concious way... that once fermented didnt last more than a few days so once the fermentation vessel was opened, it was consumed as is... yeast and all... i think thats how i want to do mine at first... drink it when its done fermenting without bottling or carbonating.. right from the carboy...

so im going to take my ingredients, boil them down to syrup, add more water and the hops, boil it down to the 1 gallon i need... then let it cool, syphon it into the carboy i have, cork it with my little gas release device in it.. let it ferment a specific period of time... then open it up and have at it... when i find the recipe i want to stick with i will have find some way of preserving it without too much carbonization or refridgeration

something i should mention.. i have an issue with my esophagus... the lower 2/3 of it have nerve damage, and as a result i havent drank carbonated drinks in a very long time as the carbonization, as well as cold temperature liquids tend to agitate the issue which is another reason why im curious in beers made before carbonization and refridgeration

well, i think the recipe i stated is one im going to give a try... and later on ill try using the same ingredients to make a light ale version for drinking regularly... at 8.5% ABV, if this wee heavy is successful, im not sure i could drink it daily without being drunk almost nightly, i myself, like most of you here, like beer but are not alcoholics

heck.. just the nature of a home brewer is anti-alcoholic anyway, since from my experience with alcoholics theyll do anything for a buzz.. we're all about flavor here, right?... so i should put a light ale on my list to experiment with for daily consumption

Though not Scottish, there's a group in England called the Durden Park Circle that has 18th and 19th century beer recipes on-line.

Give 'em a google.

sorry I haven't posted in a while, been pretty busy.

I'll try to post up that heather ale and mumm recipe tomorrow or the next day

well, im actually in search of a scottish style gruit recipe if anyone has one.. mugwort, yarrow, heather.. i dont know what else i need, but it seems to be equal portions

quick related question.. since malts are sold by the pound, and i only need a couple ounces of roasted barley to get the flavor and color i need for the style of ale im making... is it possible to roast some extra golden promise grains, or do i need raw barley for this purpose?... if i can roast golden promise, i was going to order an extra point of it.. and use the extra golden promise and yeast try some bread made from it too

If you're looking for old traditional ale recipes, many predating the widespread use of hops, try Gruitale.com . I found a lot of interesting ones there.