2 beers, 1 mash - Lazy man's Partigyle - What are your thoughts?

I am going to try to brew both of these beers at the same time, using one mash. Not really a true partigyle (because Im not seperating the wort mid sparge). But something similar.

Here are the two recipes I am going make:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f66/nierra-sevada-session-snpa-clone-27673/
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f66/dead-guy-clone-extract-ag-see-note-25902/

(thank you Beirmuncher and Yooperbrew!!!)

I have spent the last 2 days of my free time playing with beersmith to get the right weights and necessary volumes. Essentially, I have made a base-wort recipe that I can covert into each of these two brews. I was able to use the SNPA recipe for the entire base wort. That meant, that for the Dead Guy Clone, I replaced the Cara-Munich with Cara-Pils, and the crystal 40 L to crystal 60 L. I want the added head retention with the cara-pils, and Im hoping that the change from the crystal 40 to 60 wont tweek the flavor too much.

Here are the recipes.

For my base wort, I have used the SNPA grain bill (I added an extra pount of 2-row because I will collect an extra gallon, as I boil a lot off):

16 lbs of 2 row (US)
1 lb of carapils
1 lb of crystal 60 L

I will mash this at about 155 for an hour, flysparge, and collect about 13 gallons. This should give me a gravity (after boil) of about 1.046 - perfect for the SNPA). I will divide this into boil kettles, each with 6.5 gallons (boil off about a gallon each).

Then, I will make the SNPA clone as is (without steeping any extra grains, since the base wort boil is essentially an 11 gallon batch of the SNPA. Just add hops, per the schedule, and its ready to go.

The Dead Guy Clone will be made as follows:

Use half the base wort as described above, then steep 3 lbs of 2 row (US) and 1 lb of Munich for 30 min before the boil.

Then boil and add hops, etc, as normal.

By steeping the 2 row and munich, I get the higher gravity (1.066) and same ingredients (except for trading out the cara-munich for cara-pils, and switching from crystal 40L to 60L) as the Original Dead Guy recipe.

A couple quesitons for you pro's:

In the Dead Guy clone, will the excange of Cara-Munich with Cara-Pils, and the crystal 40 L to crystal 60 L make that much of a difference? I can always use only pale 2-row for the base wort, then steep grains in both boil kettles to get the exact ingredients. The fact is, I want the SNPA to be as close as possible. I dont mind if the Dead Guy clone is slightly different, as long as it tastes similar, and GOOD!

Is there anything that I am missing about all this? I get the same amount of sugar out of steeping as I do mashing, right?

So, please let me know what you guys think. Any comments are greatly appreciated!

I'm considering doing a partigyle this coming weekend and have been doing some thinking on how to add to the 2nd runnings (weak beer). You aren't going to get the sugars from steeping that you would from mashing, especially with the 2-row and munich. Those have to be mashed. The munich will give you the flavor you are looking for though. I'm running into the same problem with honey malt which is what I want to use in the weak beer. I know it has to be mashed to get the sugar, but I may be able to get the body/flavor just by steeping.

I've never done a partial mash. I went from extract into all-grain. It seems that you could turn the dead guy clone into a partial mash though.

Just thought of a couple of things. You could use caramunich instead of munich. That malt doesn't need to be mashed. As for the 2-row, you could use DME maybe.

Well, if I take 3 lbs of pale 2 row, and I tell Beersmith that I am using it as in a partial mash, it raises the OG point for me. Why wouldnt I get sugars from it if I steep it?

uwjester said:

Just thought of a couple of things. You could use caramunich instead of munich. That malt doesn't need to be mashed. As for the 2-row, you could use DME maybe.

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Well, are you mashing or steeping?

They are different.

+1 steeping will not cause conversion, therefore, the addition of some DME to raise the gravity would be a great choice as uwjester states.

If you are using the munich solely for the flavor, then steeping that would be okay, but once again uwjester's suggestion of using caramunich is a good alternative.

Basically what uwjester says!

Griffsta said:

Well, if I take 3 lbs of pale 2 row, and I tell Beersmith that I am using it as in a partial mash, it raises the OG point for me. Why wouldnt I get sugars from it if I steep it?

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I remember beersmith raising the OG in extract batches too, but does it put an exclamation point at the beginning of the line? I think Beersmith is telling you that it is a must-mash grain.

My last 50 5 gallon batches have all been doing this sort of "partigyle".

If you steep 2-row, you're not going to convert the sugars as efficiently, which means the carbohydrates may not get broken down into simpler (yeast eatable ) sugars. This may lead to hazier beer and a higher than expected FG.

I have a custom spreadsheet that makes this easier than using one of the programs, but I don't have time to throw that together tonight. Should be able to tomorrow.

THats great. I only brewed 4 extract batches before I went all grain with a 3 keggle system. Therefore, I only steeped grains once (2nd batch), and have never had to since. I didnt realize that you dont get convertable sugars without an actual mash. I mistakenly figured... heat + water + grains + time = sugars My math sucks.

I've been looking into doing this. I think instead of "steeping" the grains as stated here, I would call it "stove-top mashing" like Deathbrewer's thread on stove top all grain. What I do when I do that is a high quantity of water (1.5-2 qts/lb) and try and maintain a temp of ~150 for 40+ min. Call it steep or mash, I've gotten 75% efficiency from that.

gxm, I'd be interested in seeing your spreadsheet, as this is a route I'd enjoy exploring more thoroughly.

What i would do is to mash all of the base grain and divide the runnings such that the Dead Guy has more of the first runnings to gain a higher gravity. The SNPA will get more of the second / third runnings so both get equal volumes of runnings.

Makes little sense to me to mash and then mini mash?

Steep specialty grain to alter each batch acccordingly.

See, I would like to to that, like a true Partigyle, but it has to be pretty tricky figuring out exactly what volumes to collect for each. Im sure there is some non-linear equation out there that would help me figure out the rate of decrease in sugar as you sparge, but ****... as I said above, my mathmatics suck.

There is a table on this page that comes from this article. It is a good read for someone considering a partigyle mash.

My situation is this, I intend to do a Pliny clone but I don't think I'd work through 10 gallons that quickly. My understanding is that the IIPA should be drunk fairly quickly as the hop flavor can diminish. So I'm going to do a 50-50 by volume split of a 1.054 beer. That should mean that the first runnings will be at 1.072 and the seccond runnings will be at 1.036, perfect for a mild. I'll steep the honey malt and some crystal 60 in the seccond runnings to add a little flavor and color. The pliny recipe will get .75# of dextrose to bump the OG to 1.077.

Here's where my day is really going to be interesting. The BYO recipe I have for Pliny calls for mash hopping some Chinook (3.5 oz. at 13%). You get a lot of hop flavor out of mash hopping, but not a huge amount of bitterness. I'm expecting 15.5 IBU from that vs. the 77 or 78 IBU it would be if it were boil hops instead of mash hops. If the ratio is the same, then I'll see 15.76 IBUs in the first runnings and 15.25 IBUs in the 2nd runnings. I'll need to add some more hops to the mild to balance it correctly, but I have no idea what I'm going to be using to balance the chinook, the low gravity wort, and the honey malt. I suspect ekg, fuggles, or wiliamette is the right answer. All I know is this is going to be an interesting beer.

There are many ways to do this. I like math and numbers, so I have my all-in-one spreadsheet.

If I wanted to brew these two together, the first decision I need to make is which beer do I want to more closely follow the recipe on, and am I OK with compromising on the second? Lately, I've been choosing recipe combos that are simpler and don't require compromise. Such as doing Scotch 80 & 60, equal weight pale ales, golden strong and (helles, pils, etc).

I like Dead Guy better, and you have a lot of flexibility with a PA, so I choose Dead Guy. I also prefer to mash Munich, so I want to put it in the main mash. This means some of it will get into the SNPA, which is fine by me. Since the SNPA is getting some Munich, I'd leave the Carapils out.

For 10 gallons total and 75% efficiency:
Main mash:
17.1# 2-row
1.7# Munich
0.85# Crystal 40

Mashing at 1.5 qts/# will give 5.2 gallons of first runnings.
Take 2 gallons of that for SNPA, and the rest for Dead Guy.
Batch sparge 3.4g and put all of that in Dead Guy.
Steep 1# Caramunich in a grain bag in the Dead Guy runnings. 20-30 minutes should be fine.
After taking the second runnings, add .65# Crystal 60 as a capping grain to the mash.
The second and third sparge are both 2.2g, and all go into the SNPA.

The spreadsheet for all this is here - http://moulliet.com/beer/Multigyle.xls
All of the bold red numbers are "drivers", so if you want to adjust the efficiency, use a different quantity of mash water, etc.
Enjoy

Wow... thats a lot to think about. Im not quite understanding the spreadsheet yet, but give me a little more time.

I read someplaces that Munich doesnt need to be mashed, while other places say that it does???

Griffsta said:

I read someplaces that Munich doesnt need to be mashed, while other places say that it does???

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All that I have ever heard is that it DOES need to be mashed, but I'm not exactly an authority. I've done extract with grains (including munich) and used a method like the one I described before for 'mashing' and I ended up with decent extraction...

Griffsta said:

Wow... thats a lot to think about. Im not quite understanding the spreadsheet yet, but give me a little more time.

Click to expand...

It is pretty complex at first. Let me know if you have any questions.
Also, the combo you want to do makes it a little more complicated. I'd be happy to provide some simpler recipes if you want something easier to start.

Griffsta said:

I read someplaces that Munich doesnt need to be mashed, while other places say that it does???

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Looking at the chart here, most non-crystal malts below 30L require mashing - Malts Chart - Home Brewing Wiki

I've had some issues with very cloudy beers when I didn't properly mash some lighter specialty grains, so I generally make sure to mash anything under 30L, just to be safe.

There is another spreadsheet at TOM’S HOMEBREW HOMEPAGE

I would definitely like some recipe suggestions for partigyles. I tossed that question out a couple weeks ago, but didnt get much response. If I could brew 2 seperate beers with one batch, then why wouldnt I do it evertime I brew? Seems like a no brainer... Im making this Dead guy and SNPA tomorrow, but will be brewing again in 2 weeks and want to start gearing up for some nice fall/autumn brews. Let me know what you have. Thanks.

Griffsta said:

If I could brew 2 seperate beers with one batch, then why wouldnt I do it evertime I brew?

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This is what I do every week.
The easiest combinations are 50/50 splits, and splits that use the same grain bill 55/45, 60/40, etc.
For 50/50 splits, I've done a number of Hefeweizens and Pale Ales. Use whatever base recipe you like, then split the first runnings 50/50. Use the 2nd runnings in one beer, and the 3rd and 4th runnings in the 2nd beer.
Once you start altering the hop schedules and yeast, you can easily have two very different beers.