To all the extract haters

I Have recently come to know a guy that has been home brewing for 40 years now. This guy is a wealth of knowledge and really produces some great beers. I have had the blessing to go learn about the all grain process from him and even help with a brew session.

Today I brought him one of my brews. It was the Northern Brewer Honey Kolsch extract kit. He gave me the best compliment I have ever received on my beers. He said I nailed it and made a really great beer. Coming from a beer guy that's been home brewing since before lots of us were even born. I am beyond stoked.

I don't write this to brag, but just to say, like many people on here have said before, you can make some frigin excellent beers with extract when you have your process down. To anyone else out there that is extract brewing, keep learning, keep tweaking, keep making the best dang beer you can make! Don't let extract be your excuse.

Nobodies extract hating. I make starters with it all the time.

I have been brewing about eight years now, the last five all-grain. I made great beers with both methods, some are better the extract version, while others are all-grain. For me, the switch to all-grain came from my cooking background. I love all of the ways I can tweak a batch of brew. It's like having a receiver with twenty different control knobs. I do both, cause some days an all-grain batch will literally take all afternoon, into evening.

After a year of extract brewing I am looking to make the jump to all grain.

Extract brewing is awesome and does not take up that much time but I feel like the next step to become a great brewer is all grain.

I'd love to do some extract brewing for when I'm pressed for time.

And then I price it out...

Congrats on the great beer!

homercidal said:

i'd love to do some extract brewing for when i'm pressed for time.

and then i price it out...

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x2.

To the OP:

If you had the equipment (i.e., mash tun) and space and extra time to brew all-grain, would you?

Homercidal said:

I'd love to do some extract brewing for when I'm pressed for time.

And then I price it out...

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Yeah, that's one of the biggest upsides of AG.... way cheaper. And let's face it, not hating here, I still brew a lot of extract beers, but extracts usually leave a taste and a feel that you can't fully eliminate. I've seen exceptions to this, but they're exceptions not the norm. My biggest beef w/extract brews is the under attenuation, even if the beer turns out great, and under attenuated brew almost always kills it for me.
Don't get me wrong, I still brew extract batches about once a month. And I have no problem drinking extract beers. But let's be real, first and foremost, extract is significantly more expensive per batch, even more so when compared to the cost of bulk grains. And with extract you're seldom going to see a beer attenuate below ~1.018, regardless of recipe and process, which doesn't suit many styles of beer (ex: and 'IPA' with and FG of 1.02 isn't technically an IPA... really, it isn't.).
Then there's the hobbyists point of view. IMO, an extract brew is like a box of mac 'n' cheese; it's easy, quick and it gets the job done. An AG brew is more like a well put together meal; it takes a lot of time, but the end result is far more satisfying (both in taste and because of the time/effort invested in it).
Sorry if that comes across ******-y, and I'm not 'hating' extracts, I have and still regularly make great beer using all three methods (extract, PM and AG). I'm just sayin', when ya weigh all the pros and cons (cost, ease, enjoyment, quality, etc.) of extract vs. AG, I'd have to say the benefits of AG beer outweigh those of extract beer, IMO.

NordeastBrewer77 said:

. . . I'm just sayin', when ya weigh all the pros and cons (cost, ease, enjoyment, quality, etc.) of extract vs. AG, I'd have to say the benefits of AG beer outweigh those of extract beer, IMO.

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You really should have replaced the "in my opinion" with "for me". What you are saying is true for me (I brew all-grain, sometimes adding DME for bigger beers), but there are many for whom it isn't.

Some examples:

1) the brewer for whom money isn't an issue, but time is
2) the brewer with a new baby who must brew at 10 pm at night
3) the many, many brewers who live in Manhattan or Chicago or some other metropolitan area where space is an issue and all the brewing equipment must go fit in the kitchen cabinets
4) the brewer who likes to brew twice a year and doesn't want to invest the time necessary to learn all-grain brewing, let alone acquire and make the equipment


There are many brewers for whom your statement that the "benefits of all-grain beer outweight those of extract beer" is just wrong.

Partial Mashing gives you some of the simplicity of brewing via Extract with some of the benefits of brewing All Grain.

Let's hear it for the Partial Mashers!

we should get an AG vs extract thread going in every sub forum...

+1 to the OP.

As for the guy who said he can't get extract beers to attenuate below 1.018, what is the OG of those beers? I've brewed tons of extract beers in the 1.050-1.060 range that ferment to 1.010-1.012. You're either getting stuck fermentations, or you're not giving the beer enough time in your primary.

I brew mash and love the simplicity of extract brewing.

Homercidal said:

I'd love to do some extract brewing for when I'm pressed for time.

And then I price it out...

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Same here, I made the jump to AG a few years ago when the price of extract went through the roof, I must say I am always tempted to pick up a bucket of LME from North Country Malt on a group buy for like $65 bucks for 60 lbs.

Homercidal said:

I'd love to do some extract brewing for when I'm pressed for time.

And then I price it out...

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This.

Pappers_ said:

You really should have replaced the "in my opinion" with "for me". What you are saying is true for me (I brew all-grain, sometimes adding DME for bigger beers), but there are many for whom it isn't.

Some examples:

1) the brewer for whom money isn't an issue, but time is
2) the brewer with a new baby who must brew at 10 pm at night
3) the many, many brewers who live in Manhattan or Chicago or some other metropolitan area where space is an issue and all the brewing equipment must go fit in the kitchen cabinets
4) the brewer who likes to brew twice a year and doesn't want to invest the time necessary to learn all-grain brewing, let alone acquire and make the equipment


There are many brewers for whom your statement that the "benefits of all-grain beer outweight those of extract beer" is just wrong.

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Yeah, that's pretty much what I mean by 'IMO'..... and you're right, for many the benefits of extract outweigh those of AG..... for me and you, they may not, but you make a great point.

And I wasn't saying that there aren't many good reasons to brew extract, cuz there are. I do extract kits from Midwest all the time, because it lets me brew fast and keep the pipeline going even if my time is limited.

CrookedTail said:

As for the guy who said he can't get extract beers to attenuate below 1.018, what is the OG of those beers? I've brewed tons of extract beers in the 1.050-1.060 range that ferment to 1.010-1.012. You're either getting stuck fermentations, or you're not giving the beer enough time in your primary.

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I'm not the guy, but I would like to say that this can happen quite frequently... more so for ales at 1.070 OG+

All extract is not created the same. Some contain crystal malt, some don't. Some have a portion of carapils, some have a portion of wheat. Some are made from American 2-row, English 2-row, Pilsener malt, etc. When extract homebrewers load up on specialty grains without knowing what they are using, the outcome may be different than expected.

DME Examples:

Muntons Extra Light DME = 37 PPG / 2.5 L
Muntons Light DME = 44 PPG / 4 L
Briess Pilsen Light DME = 42 PPG / 1 L
Briess Golden Light DME = 42 PPG / 5 L
Corn Sugar = 46 PPG / 0 L

I use Munton's Extra Light DME because it is basically pure English 2-row with the smallest touch of carapils. I get more character from the English malt, and less additives compared to most of the other extracts.

bobbrews said:

I'm not the guy, but I would like to say that this can happen quite frequently... more so for ales at 1.070 OG+

All extract is not created the same. Some contain crystal malt, some don't. Some have a portion of carapils, some have a portion of wheat. Some are made from American 2-row, English 2-row, Pilsener malt, etc. When extract homebrewers load up on specialty grains without knowing what they are using, the outcome may be different than expected.

DME Examples:

Muntons Extra Light DME = 37 PPG / 2.5 L
Muntons Light DME = 44 PPG / 4 L
Briess Pilsen Light DME = 42 PPG / 1 L
Briess Golden Light DME = 42 PPG / 5 L
Corn Sugar = 46 PPG / 0 L

I use Munton's Extra Light DME because it is basically pure English 2-row with the smallest touch of carapils. I get more character from the English malt, and less additives compared to most of the other extracts.

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Well you should factor that in when you figure out the amount of steeping grains you're going to use. You can't blame the extract for that. Inadvertent or not, that is the brewer's fault.

I use Northern Brewer LME for the most part because it is very fresh. I know the Gold and Pilsen come with a small amount of carapils in them, so I factor that into my recipes.

NordeastBrewer77 said:

Yeah, that's pretty much what I mean by 'IMO'..... and you're right, for many the benefits of extract outweigh those of AG..... for me and you, they may not, but you make a great point.

And I wasn't saying that there aren't many good reasons to brew extract, cuz there are. I do extract kits from Midwest all the time, because it lets me brew fast and keep the pipeline going even if my time is limited.

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Cheers!

CrookedTail said:

Well you should factor that in when you figure out the amount of steeping grains you're going to use.

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A lot of homebrewers don't know. I frequently see recipes like this and scratch my head:

7 lbs. Gold LME
2 lbs. Amber LME
1 lb. Carapils
1 lb. Crystal 40

OK, so I'm a noob here and I've done a few kits that I have yet to bottle but I'm confused as to what is an 'extract' kit and what is considered a 'partial mash'?

I watched a youtube video that went through the steps of an 'easy' partial mash and it was exactly what I did for what I thought was an 'extract' kit I got from Midwest and the other two kits I got from Adventures in Homebrewing?!

Could someone just dumb it down for me what the difference is between an 'extract' kit and a partial mash in the simplest way possible?

bobbrews said:

A lot of homebrewers don't know. I frequently see recipes like this and scratch my head:

7 lbs. Gold LME
2 lbs. Amber LME
1 lb. Carapils
1 lb. Crystal 40

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Yep. I've seen recipes with the same amount of grains, but all Amber LME. Then they get a funky flavored beer and say it's extract twang.

Use three pounds of crystal malt in an all grain beer, and it will taste just as bad.

It drives me nuts.

My house IPA (my most celebrated brew so far) is a partial-extract recipe. I love seeing other homebrewers faces when they read the recipe and find out not only is it extract-based, it uses a good amount of sucrose too. I even had a guy say "no thanks, I don't so extract" and hand back the recipe. Snobbery prevented him from brewing an incredible IPA -- his loss!

MMJfan said:

Could someone just dumb it down for me what the difference is between an 'extract' kit and a partial mash in the simplest way possible?

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Partial mash: you soak real grains. Also called a mini-mash.
Extract: has no real grain, just extract.

Thank you rhamilton. So, I guess I've been doing partial mash kits all along?

For me, it's about time. I love the idea of homebrewing and it seem like it will be a very enjoyable hobby if I stick to partial mash recipes. I just don't have the time to get involved in all grain brewing (3 girls under the age of 9 keep me quite busy ).

As for the monetary savings, I don't really see partials as being overly expensive when compared to buying comperable beers from local beer stores.

All in all, I don't think it should be a matter of trying to convince someone that one is better than the other. As pappers said earlier, there are a lot of variables that go into which type of homebrewing style one prefers. I just know I am perfectly contented right now sticking with partials from kits and eventually branching out to create my own partial recipes down the road...

Right on! What's to hate about choosing Pilsner, Wheat, Golden Light, Amber or Dark burned to crap extract. And you never have to worry about mash temps! Just dump in 2 lbs of dextrin malt or sugar and you're good to go! No worries about 152 vs 158 mashing ever again! /sarcasm

CrookedTail said:

As for the guy who said he can't get extract beers to attenuate below 1.018, what is the OG of those beers? I've brewed tons of extract beers in the 1.050-1.060 range that ferment to 1.010-1.012. You're either getting stuck fermentations, or you're not giving the beer enough time in your primary.

I brew mash and love the simplicity of extract brewing.

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+1 Amen for the Extract. Such a saver

If you're not able to get the beer where you want it, you're doing it wrong. Maybe take a step back and use only kits instead of making your own recipe? Not to be insulting, just some people throw together things that won't make sense. I use kits and regularly get my attenuation down to where they say it will.

rhamilton said:

Partial mash: you soak real grains. Also called a mini-mash.
Extract: has no real grain, just extract.

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i think part of the confusion here stems from mixing up "partial mash" and "steeping".

extract kits often come with grains that don't need to be mashed (like crystal). for those grains, you only need to soak them in very warm water for a while so that the sugars and flavors leach out. there is no conversion of starch into sugar, since the starches were already converted beforehand.

a true partial mash, to me, involves enzymatic action. you need a base malt with strong diastatic power (typically 2-row, but could be 6-row, or wheat malt, etc). mashing involved holding the temperature between 148 andf 158*F for an hour or more. starches are being converted to fermentable sugars.

for me, partial mash and "full" all-grain mash are identical save for one detail: the partial mash brewer will be using extract once the mash is done to achieve OG.

sweetcell said:

a true partial mash, to me, involves enzymatic action. you need a base malt with strong diastatic power (typically 2-row, but could be 6-row, or wheat malt, etc). mashing involved holding the temperature between 148 andf 158*F for an hour or more. starched are being converted to fermentable sugars.

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Correct. You could use any base malt in the partial mash. If you really want to try adding some really nice flavors to a pale ale do a partial mash of some Vienna or Munich. It also gives you a much bigger pool of ingredients to pull from that would normally be not very useful to being detrimental. You get to play with flaked adjuncts for mouth feel or things like Aromatic malt that can self convert but do better with a base malt in the mix.

MMJfan said:

Thank you rhamilton. So, I guess I've been doing partial mash kits all along?

For me, it's about time. I love the idea of homebrewing and it seem like it will be a very enjoyable hobby if I stick to partial mash recipes. I just don't have the time to get involved in all grain brewing (3 girls under the age of 9 keep me quite busy ).

As for the monetary savings, I don't really see partials as being overly expensive when compared to buying comperable beers from local beer stores.

All in all, I don't think it should be a matter of trying to convince someone that one is better than the other. As pappers said earlier, there are a lot of variables that go into which type of homebrewing style one prefers. I just know I am perfectly contented right now sticking with partials from kits and eventually branching out to create my own partial recipes down the road...

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Partial mash and extract with grains are similar, but not the same.

When you brew extract, you're getting 100% of your fermentables from the extract. You're steeping specialty grains that have gone through a malting/kilning process that has converted their starches in unfermentable sugars. When you steep these grains you're allowing those sugars to dissolve, which gives you varying degrees of flavor and color based on how long they were kilned. All you need to do when steeping these grains is to keep the temperature below 170 degrees in order to prevent extracting tannins from the husks of the grains.

When you do a partial mash, you're getting a portion of your fermentables from base malts (all grain gets 100% fermentables from these grains) and making up the difference with malt extract. You soak these malts in a more temperature-controlled environment (145-158 degrees) to "activate" enzymes in the malts. At the same time starches from the grains soak into the water and the enzymes convert the starches into fermentable sugars. You can (and usually do) include the same steeping grains that you'd use in an extract recipe to dictate color and flavor.

Partial mash has some base grains.
Extract doesn't have base grains but frequently will have other grains. In fact I have only done one extract brew out of 30 that didn't have steeping grains.

Pappers_ said:

You really should have replaced the "in my opinion" with "for me". What you are saying is true for me (I brew all-grain, sometimes adding DME for bigger beers), but there are many for whom it isn't.

Some examples:

1) the brewer for whom money isn't an issue, but time is
2) the brewer with a new baby who must brew at 10 pm at night


There are many brewers for whom your statement that the "benefits of all-grain beer outweight those of extract beer" is just wrong.

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These two are what I have to deal with. I have to brew after my son goes to bed, and I just can't go 5 hours or more. I would like to try BIAB, but I still worry about time constraints. That and the cost of the equipment.

I think a lot of AG posters never calculate the cost of the equipment when they say it is so much cheaper. I think you would have to capitalize that cost into each brew and then see how many brews it takes to break even. I wonder if anyone has done that?

Also, on a side note, I find it curious that every hobby I have gotten into always seem to have two groups arguing over supremacy (or elitism, whatever you want to call it). I am especially reminded of it in paintball. Just an observation.

The difference between extract and all grain brewing is the same as the difference between being a cook and a chef. Not hating, the world needs lots of good cooks.

pohldogg said:

The difference between extract and all grain brewing is the same as the difference between being a cook and a chef. Not hating, the world needs lots of good cooks.

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I like to compare it to making a cake from scratch to using a Betty crocker cake mix.

pohldogg said:

The difference between extract and all grain brewing is the same as the difference between being a cook and a chef. Not hating, the world needs lots of good cooks.

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Right. And I've had a lot of crappy food made by chefs, and some amazing food made by cooks.

sweetcell said:

i think part of the confusion here stems from mixing up "partial mash" and "steeping".

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If you use AHS kits, their mini-mashes always include a few pounds of 2-row along with the specialty grains. I also believe the instructions specify to 'steep' in 160°F water. So while the instructions say you are 'steeping', you are in fact doing a true mash. It's definitely confusing

rhamilton said:

If you use AHS kits, their mini-mashes always include a few pounds of 2-row along with the specialty grains. I also believe the instructions specify to 'steep' in 160°F water. So while the instructions say you are 'steeping', you are in fact doing a true mash. It's definitely confusing

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Agreed. Even if you check the extract recipes in Brew Your Own Magazine, many of them include a small amount of two-row or Munich that you "steep" at 150 degrees.

Never tried extract brewing but might someday. I thank Mr. Palmer's book whose chapter(s) on all grain mashing was thought provoking, entertaining and inspired me to try brewing. After seeing the prices for extract, well enough said there.

ryno84 said:

I think a lot of AG posters never calculate the cost of the equipment when they say it is so much cheaper. I think you would have to capitalize that cost into each brew and then see how many brews it takes to break even. I wonder if anyone has done that?

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hey you're not playing fair! Actually most of us would agree...it's better not to add it all up. Which is fine but then don't post rants about the inferiority of extract brewing.

I find equipment acquisition to be an enjoyable part of the hobby, not part of a race to lowest cost brewing, so I figure the money's well spent.

dbrewski said:

hey you're not playing fair! Actually most of us would agree...it's better not to add it all up. Which is fine but then don't post rants about the inferiority of extract brewing.

I find equipment acquisition to be an enjoyable part of the hobby, not part of a race to lowest cost brewing, so I figure the money's well spent.

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Think my little mash tun is more than halfway paid for itself AND I can still use it as cooler.

dbrewski said:

I find equipment acquisition to be an enjoyable part of the hobby, not part of a race to lowest cost brewing, so I figure the money's well spent.

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Hey, don't get me wrong, I spend a portion of my day looking at items I would like to get. Like I said before, I would like to go AG or BIAB. I've been "shopping" for said items for about a month now.

I don't really look at brewing as saving a bunch of money. That's just what I tell the SWMBO. Its a hobby. And hobbies tend to be expensive.