Any experience with T-58 yeast?

I did a very good Saison with it. I used it because I wanted a fast turn around - no starter. I re-hydrated, pitched and fermented near 70 degrees. I did not notice it fermented much different than any other yeast. I did a 3 week primary then bottled. The Saison had a distinctly different flavor. I hope it was what it was supposed to taste like since I had never had one before and haven't since.

I'm glad I found this thread - I have (or had, now that I've read some of your responses!) some similar questions.

I will be brewing up this Saison recipe tonight:
http://wiki.americanhomebrewers.org/SaisonDuMont-Extract

Instead of either of the liquid yeasts they recommend, I also am going with the T-58 dry yeast. I think I will rehydrate it (I do have some GoFerm, but some of you said that shouldn't be necessary - wort has more nutrients than wine, cider, or mead must, so shouldn't need it?). The recipe says to pitch at 73-76, and then ferment at 76 for a week. My question is if I should indeed follow those directions...

On The Jamil Show Saison podcast, he said to start at 68, and then slowly ramp up to around 80. But, he also was talking about the liquid yeasts, as he specifically said you would not get good enough results (dry enough) with dry yeast. So I don't know which way would be better, or if it would make much of a difference. It sounds like, based on some of your posts, that the big thing is to make sure it does get warm enough to not get stuck. I'm just wondering if starting lower and then getting warmer, or just starting and holding warmer, would be the best way to avoid getting a stuck fermentation. (I do have champagne and cotes de blancs dry yeasts, if it does happen, as the recipe directions note it might - but would rather just avoid in the first place, obviously.)

If I do start warmer (and especially if I use the GoFerm, it sounds like) ill prob get quicker, more vigorous activity... So I built one of these PVC blow-off tubes to prepare for that possibility (attached photo). Never needed/used one before - do you guys just attach it from the get-go, in anticipation, or do you start with an airlock and just monitor closely to see if/when you need the blowoff? I'd rather just attach initially - seems easiest - any downside to this?

This will be my first time using dry yeast for a beer, too... Is it true that you don't need to aerate the wort with dry? I'll still be dumping it from my kettle into my ferm bucket, so that'll aerate some anyway...

Also, the coriander I have are seeds that need to be crushed... Best way to do this? (Put in plastic bag and use rolling pin, like is suggested with grains? I'd think my coffee grinder would work, but its way too clogged/infused with coffee grains, and I'm too lazy to give it a deep cleaning - don't want this beer tasting like coffee!)

Thanks for any advice!

FatsSchindee said:

I'm just wondering if starting lower and then getting warmer, or just starting and holding warmer, would be the best way to avoid getting a stuck fermentation. !

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The reason I started this thread was to, hopefully, find some answers to some of these very questions. My experience so far is that this yeast likes it a little warm. But with that warmth comes the fruity esters common to saison beers. (Perhaps someone with more experience will correct me on this point.) I got very little fermentation activity near 65F but things picked up significantly when I raised the temperature into the 70's. A function of low OG wort? I don't know. Some of the guys here have gotten good activity at lower temps but with a much sweeter wort.

FatsSchindee said:

This will be my first time using dry yeast for a beer, too... Is it true that you don't need to aerate the wort with dry? !

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Yeast still needs oxygen. Doesn't matter how you pitch it.

FatsSchindee said:

I'll still be dumping it from my kettle into my ferm bucket, so that'll aerate some anyway...!

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I use dry yeast all the time. And following John Palmer's advice (How to Brew) I always pour mine back and forth between the boil kettle and a sanitized bucket a couple of times before pouring the wort into the fermenter. Have had no problem with fermentation (aside from the aforementioned issues with T-58).

FatsSchindee said:

Also, the coriander I have are seeds that need to be crushed... Best way to do this? !

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I use an old fashioned mortar and pestle that my wife has for crushing spices. Works good, but takes some elbow grease.

FatsSchindee said:

I'd think my coffee grinder would work,

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We also have an extra coffee grinder dedicated to grinding spices. (No coffee taste) I just find that hand-grinding is faster than digging it out of the cupboard. But if you do it a lot a cheap electric coffee grinder is a good tool to have around. But yeah, don't use it for coffee too!

Cheers!

Puddlethumper said:

Yeast still needs oxygen. Doesn't matter how you pitch it.

I use an old fashioned mortar and pestle that my wife has for crushing spices. Works good, but takes some elbow grease.

We also have an extra coffee grinder dedicated to grinding spices. (No coffee taste) I just find that hand-grinding is faster than digging it out of the cupboard. But if you do it a lot a cheap electric coffee grinder is a good tool to have around. But yeah, don't use it for coffee too!

Cheers!

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I could've sworn I read dry yeast doesn't need aeration, but don't remember where... But it won't hurt, so better safe than sorry.

I just found a mortar and pestle that a friend gave to us for crushing mint for mojitos... Perfect! Thanks for the advice!

Might not be a bad idea to pick up a second grinder in the future...

Thanks for responding...

I use t-58 for my wit. I ferment at 59deg and have never had a problem with attenuation or a stuck ferment. It took about 2.5 weeks to finish. I roused the yeast once a day as soon as activity really slowed down. It tends to give more pepper/spice than fruit that low.

FatsSchindee said:

I could've sworn I read dry yeast doesn't need aeration, but don't remember where... But it won't hurt, so better safe than sorry.

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I found this on the Fermentis site:

"Does the wort need Oxygenation/ aeration?
As the yeast is grown aerobically, the yeast is less sensitive on first pitch. Aeration is recommended to ensure full mixing of the wort and yeast."

So it sounds like while they still recommend aerating, the dry yeasts are less sensitive to it.

Mike37 said:

I found this on the Fermentis site:

"Does the wort need Oxygenation/ aeration?
As the yeast is grown aerobically, the yeast is less sensitive on first pitch. Aeration is recommended to ensure full mixing of the wort and yeast."

So it sounds like while they still recommend aerating, the dry yeasts are less sensitive to it.

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I did end up use my "vortex" paint mixer on the cordless drill for about 3 minutes to aerate... Hope it did help. Thanks!

FatsSchindee said:

I just found a mortar and pestle that a friend gave to us for crushing mint for mojitos...

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Just a thought on a little different approach .... for mojitos and juleps I prefer to muddle the mint in the glass I'm serving the drink in. That way most of the aromatic oils remain in the glass to be dissolved by the booze.

That's actually exactly what I do when I make them, too. I think our friend must use the mortar and pestle... The only reason I say that (and why I mentioned it above), is because she wrote that on the bottom of the ceramic bowl... Otherwise I would've had no clue who it was from or to think to use it for mojitos! I honestly forgot we even had one until you mentioned it and I went searching through our cabinets...

FatsSchindee said:

That's actually exactly what I do when I make them, too. I think our friend must use the mortar and pestle... The only reason I say that (and why I mentioned it above), is because she wrote that on the bottom of the ceramic bowl... Otherwise I would've had no clue who it was from or to think to use it for mojitos! I honestly forgot we even had one until you mentioned it and I went searching through our cabinets...

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LOL !! It's amazing the stuff we tend to have stuffed back in the corners that we've forgotten about, huh?

Just an aside...everyone here raves about my mojitos and juleps. Me? I'm allergic as all getout to mint. Have no idea what they taste like!

That sucks for you... Because they are awesome! Mojitos anyway; haven't made juleps here... May have to try to mix it up - what is your rave-inducing recipe?

We grow mint in our garden just for mojitos (grows like crazy, too!).

Did the northern brewer lefse blonde kit about 2 months ago with t58. Rehydrated the yeast, oxygenated the wort with pure o2 for 60 seconds, pitched at 69. Fermented at ambient, which is 72 in my central closet here in San Diego. Metabolic heat had it up to 76 at high krausen, flattened to 74 for a good chunk of fermentation and finished back at 72. The taste is awesome. No super banana flavor, but a nice estery profile that has a pleasantly subdued belgian-y flavor that is crisp, clean, slightly spicy and fruity, with a certain creaminess to the mouthfeel which is easy toy surprising and in juxtaposition to the final gravity reading of 1.008. Very pleased and will use it again.

That's good to hear about those temps. I got mine a bit on the colder side last night after cooling (still trying to dial in the ice and cold water top off additions to not end too hot or too cold, until I get a chiller)... Wort was at 60, but rehydrated T-58 was at room temp of 78. Was 2am by this point (first partial mash took a bit longer than I thought!), and didn't want to wait overnight for the temps of both to equilibrate... So just pitched and transferred my bucket to the swamp cooler (which was at 73), hoping for the best (that I didn't shock/kill too many of the yeasties). Have been keeping the cooler water temps at 68-69 (knowing the beer temps will be slightly higher in the bucket), and have gotten a strong/vigorous fermentation so far, starting around 9-12 hrs after pitching. Hoping to keep temps this low for the next day or two, then let warm up to room temp to finish off the Saison (or even warmer in the garage if necessary!)...

Well I just pulled a small sample of my dubbel. OG was 1.070 and it's now 1.008 about a week later for a bit over 8% abv and about 88% apparent attenuation.

The front end is white grapes/raisins, alcohol, dates, and figs. Middle is super rich caramel and toffee. Finish is toffee and spiced rum. This should be very good after some of the alcohol ages out.

I can't tell what flavors exactly the T-58 contributed, but there's definitely something there. The FG tells me it should be quite dry, but there's a pleasant lingering sweetness to it that's all but dry.

Mike37 said:

Well I just pulled a small sample of my dubbel. OG was 1.070 and it's now 1.008 about a week later for a bit over 8% abv and about 88% apparent attenuation.

The front end is white grapes/raisins, alcohol, dates, and figs. Middle is super rich caramel and toffee. Finish is toffee and spiced rum. This should be very good after some of the alcohol ages out.

I can't tell what flavors exactly the T-58 contributed, but there's definitely something there. The FG tells me it should be quite dry, but there's a pleasant lingering sweetness to it that's all but dry.

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That's excellent attenuation for T-58 (from what I've read... See: http://byo.com/resources/yeast )! Also, flavor profile sounds great, too... Bet that'll be a good one!

Just as an update with my experience so far, this yeast loves simple sugar. It knocked a couple more points off and got to 1.006 for about 8.5% ABV.

Flavor wise, I believe the yeast contributed a spice flavor, which, when coupled with Special B, gives a spiced rum character for sure.

I now use a whisk for aeration. Whips it up fast!

I bought a pack of this yeast to use in the future as I wanted to try something that didn't need temperature monitoring. I chose T-58 since I hate bubblegum and banana in my beer. The peppery profile is why I opted to give it a go. Belgians aren't something I'd brew enough to buy liquid.

I'm surprised that the pack says the ideal temp is 59-68*, and that you had trouble with it. And it's range is stated as 53.6-77*...

Used this yeast for a wit. Simple recipe of 70% wheat, 20 percent 2 row and 10% Munich light. Finished sweet with heavy bubblegum flavours. Fermented around 72-78C. Fg was 1.016 which is what the yeast says it ends at.

You got bubblegum flavors? Thought that was absent from this yeast?

I've used T-58 a few times and the only thing unusual was it wasn't very vigorous and didn't provide a lot of airlock activity. It does make a tasty Belgian beer with a spicy quality similar to a blend of cinnamon, clove and nutmeg.

De Struisse uses T-58 for the highly rated Pannepot or at least they used to.

My wit came out tasting very like a saison. Actually found it kind of refreshing and have enjoyed a nicely chilled bottle or two after a hot day outdoors. But then, that fits nicely with the history of saisons, isn't it? I may do this again with the idea that maybe it fits very correctly with the whole idea of what saisons were originally brewed for.

I know this is an Old thread but does anyone know if there are certain FAN requirements this T-58 yeast? I ask because I know S-04 requires a protein rest for adequate FAN...

Thanks

Just to add my experience and thoughts.

Since I'm a big fan of Belgian beers, I was really eager to see this yeast in action.
I was preparing triple and quadrupel, although according to the flavors that are reported for this yeast, it seems that it's maybe more suitable for triples. Nevertheless I did my standard recipes for triple and double/quad and used the t-58, in total, I've used the yeast in my 4 batches.
If I would have to sum up the yeast and describe it with just a single word, I would say unpredictable.
And I'm not completely sure, but it seems that it's not a yeast for strong/high ABV beers, since the only batch that came out ok is double that I made, but again, I had to help it a bit (stirring etc)

And the thing that drew me away completely is that, at this moment, I have a triple that is currently stuck at 1.030.

I want to be relaxed when I pitch the yeast and be confident in its efficiency, not to have to babysit it all the way.

I have this yeast and am thinking of pitching it for a Ipa (1058-1060) OG.But after reading the posts i may go the Us05 route.