Weihenstephan...back to the drawing board!

I've been enjoying my Weihenstephan clone, but felt it was too bitter. I thought the color was pretty good. Shouldn't have done a side-by-side comparison!:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v692/rodulv/DSC00082.jpg

Mine is on the right. The fact that mine is in a pint glass and the W is in a wheat glass affects the color, but even taking that into account my beer doesn't have the beautiful golden straw color that the W does. Perhaps I'll try a different brand of malt next time.

And as I mentioned, it's too bitter. Looking back in Promash my recipe calculated almost 17 IBU (went by the book in Beer Captured). I'm cutting it back to 12 my next time around.

you know what I love about side-by-side comparisons?

YOU HAVE TO DRINK TWO GREAT BEERS!

I'm doing a side-by-side of my porter and SSTaddy tonight, just to see what differences there are. I know mine is a lot darker, but I'm looking to compare taste.

-walker

Baron von BeeGee said:

I've been enjoying my Weihenstephan clone, but felt it was too bitter. I thought the color was pretty good. Shouldn't have done a side-by-side comparison!:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v692/rodulv/DSC00082.jpg

Mine is on the right. The fact that mine is in a pint glass and the W is in a wheat glass affects the color, but even taking that into account my beer doesn't have the beautiful golden straw color that the W does. Perhaps I'll try a different brand of malt next time.

Click to expand...

<------- Has never brewed a Hefe Weisse, but plans to do this next and hopefully has read enough to make the process complicated

What malt are you using?
If you bought it at your LHBS, you will have used Weyermann. I think that should be the right malt to use. The darkening could come from O2 intake during the mash and/or boil. But I don't think that you are spashing in either stage. I also read that a lower PH will result in fewer Mailiard reactions, thus a lighter color. Maybe you should at some Acid malt (1/4 lb should be ok).

And as I mentioned, it's too bitter. Looking back in Promash my recipe calculated almost 17 IBU (went by the book in Beer Captured). I'm cutting it back to 12 my next time around.

Click to expand...

yep, cut it back. Another thing that you may want to try, is the removal of the bown gunk on top of the Kraeusen. This technique is controversial among home brewers, but many believe that it removes bitter hop resins and smoothens out the bitterness. I believe that this is done in most (if not all) Weissbier breweries in Germany.
It also means fermenting in a bucket.

Any problems with the aroma and or taste (besides the bitterness).

Oh, I can't wait until I can try myself on a Hefe.

Kai

Imperial Walker said:

you know what I love about side-by-side comparisons?

YOU HAVE TO DRINK TWO GREAT BEERS!

Click to expand...

Yeah, that's pretty cool...polished off the Weihenstephan and then snagged mine from the fridge. Still had a nice head!

Kaiser said:

<------- Has never brewed a Hefe Weisse, but plans to do this next and hopefully has read enough to make the process complicated

What malt are you using?
If you bought it at your LHBS, you will have used Weyermann. I think that should be the right malt to use. The darkening could come from O2 intake during the mash and/or boil. But I don't think that you are spashing in either stage. I also read that a lower PH will result in fewer Mailiard reactions, thus a lighter color. Maybe you should at some Acid malt (1/4 lb should be ok).

Click to expand...

Yep, this recipe came from AB. It was wheat and pilsener. I specifically didn't stir after doughing in as I've read this can 'gum up' wheat. The pH could be an excellent point, however. I've tested on barley mashes and I'm in range, but I haven't tested recently or with a wheat mash. I also have some lactic acid I can use in the mash.

Kaiser said:

yep, cut it back. Another thing that you may want to try, is the removal of the bown gunk on top of the Kraeusen. This technique is controversial among home brewers, but many believe that it removes bitter hop resins and smoothens out the bitterness. I believe that this is done in most (if not all) Weissbier breweries in Germany.
It also means fermenting in a bucket.

Click to expand...

Fermenting in a bucket is my modus operandi I've many times thought about executing this controversial procedure...perhaps the time has arrived.

Kaiser said:

Any problems with the aroma and or taste (besides the bitterness).

Click to expand...

I definitely do not have the same phenolic character as the Weihenstephan, but I don't know if this is due to my fermentation temperature or the hop bitterness obscuring it. It did smell quite phenolic while fermenting with a temperature of 66-68F. I did use the Weihenstephan yeast (3068). I hope I get better phenols in my Aventinus (which also smells good fermenting).

Oh well, some things to try next time!

Baron von BeeGee said:

I definitely do not have the same phenolic character as the Weihenstephan, but I don't know if this is due to my fermentation temperature or the hop bitterness obscuring it. It did smell quite phenolic while fermenting with a temperature of 66-68F. I did use the Weihenstephan yeast (3068). I hope I get better phenols in my Aventinus (which also smells good fermenting).

Click to expand...

Does phenolic mean "clove-aroma" or spicy? Or is this the "banana aroma"?

Just recently (last night) I came upon the affects of ferulic acid and how it is used by the yeast to produce 4-vinyl-gujacol which is said to cause the "clove aroma". Ferulic acid is already produced in your mash, but its level can be increased by a ferulic acid rest at ~44*C. Here we go, yet another rest . Time to get a heated mash tun . But my knowledge in this area is very shallow since I have not read enough yet nor have I tried this yet. But unfortunately there is little information about this in the english brwering literature (google: ferulic acid beer mash) and I have to take most of the information from german brewing pages, which are harder to share with this forum .

Kai

Warner's book has a reasonable amount of information on ferulic acid and how it's a marker for 4-vinyl-guaiacol. Of course, I read it after this beer was bottled. I'm not sure if I'll incorporate such a rest, but my protein rest was ~128F which I am going to lower next time...I'm not sure if that may help free ferulic acid.

My beer lacks the spicy/clovey phenols. I've had very banana-y hefes, and I wasn't getting that from either of the beers last night. Mine tasted fine by itself (with the exception of the lingering bitterness), but when compared side-by-side it was very instructional and clear that I am low on phenols.

Two other thoughts...I aerated this batch as usual for a 1054 wort and have since read that the production of phenols may be increased by decreasing oxygenation of the wort. I oxygenated my 1074 Aventinus wort half as much as was suggested to see if it would boost phenol production.

I also let this beer sit in the secondary for 5 weeks due to travel and sickness. Next time I will be more rigorous in getting it bottled sooner.

which german pages? from books? or internet? to my dismay, i have to make do with german literature at this time, unless i want to buy every book on the internet and have it shipped to germany. i find it interesting the different ideas that american homebrewers have in comparison to german, and vice versa. this is about the best site i've seen on the english side of the coin. can you reccomend a good german equivalent? i know of one (the name of which i cant remember right now) but it has only one tenth of the action as what goes on here.

What's so controversial about scooping off the gunk? I've often thought about doing that. Infection?

mysterio said:

What's so controversial about scooping off the gunk? I've often thought about doing that. Infection?

Click to expand...

Maybe controversial is too strong a word, but many people question the efficacy of it. Some people, such as the Pap, claim scooping it off will remove bitter resins and hangover inducing compounds from your finished brew. Other people say it is a risk of infection and doesn't affect the flavor if you leave it and let it settle, especially if you rack to secondary.

Baron von BeeGee said:

Warner's book has a reasonable amount of information on ferulic acid and how it's a marker for 4-vinyl-guaiacol. Of course, I read it after this beer was bottled. I'm not sure if I'll incorporate such a rest, but my protein rest was ~128F which I am going to lower next time...I'm not sure if that may help free ferulic acid.

Click to expand...

I may have to reread Warner's book on this as this sounds very intersting to me. I'm not sure if you want to mess with the temp for the protein rest as it may start doing something else than you desire.

One way of running a 45-55-66-76 (*C) mash schedule for a Weissbier in a cooler set-up would be:

dough in thick at 45*C (ferulic acid rest)
infuse hot water to get to 55*C (protein rest)
thick decoction to get to 66*C (maltose/saccrification rest)
hot infusion or thin decoction to get to 76*C (mash-out)

To keep the color down I'd use the infusion to get to mash-out and keep the boil for the 1st decoction short (5min max). Maybe I'll give this schedule try when I brew my Hefe.

My beer lacks the spicy/clovey phenols. I've had very banana-y hefes, and I wasn't getting that from either of the beers last night. Mine tasted fine by itself (with the exception of the lingering bitterness), but when compared side-by-side it was very instructional and clear that I am low on phenols.

Click to expand...

Higher fermentation temps are also said to produce more phenols. Maybe you want to keep it warmer next time.

I also let this beer sit in the secondary for 5 weeks due to travel and sickness. Next time I will be more rigorous in getting it bottled sooner.

Click to expand...

Weissbier looses it's aroma pretty fast, especially if the esters/phenols can escape. But it shouldn't be that fast since the Weihenstephan from the bottle still had them.

Kai

Kaiser said:

Higher fermentation temps are also said to produce more phenols. Maybe you want to keep it warmer next time.

Click to expand...

From what I have read the lower temperatures will result in more clove-like phenols, while higher temps will result in bananas. Temps in the middle should be a balance. It also depends on the yeast which may lean towards cloves or bananas.

In any case, with summer around the corner it will almost assuredly be a warmer ferment next time!

Baron von BeeGee said:

I've been enjoying my Weihenstephan clone, but felt it was too bitter. I thought the color was pretty good. Shouldn't have done a side-by-side comparison!:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v692/rodulv/DSC00082.jpg

Mine is on the right. The fact that mine is in a pint glass and the W is in a wheat glass affects the color, but even taking that into account my beer doesn't have the beautiful golden straw color that the W does. Perhaps I'll try a different brand of malt next time.

And as I mentioned, it's too bitter. Looking back in Promash my recipe calculated almost 17 IBU (went by the book in Beer Captured). I'm cutting it back to 12 my next time around.

Click to expand...

I have a Hefeweissen in the primary right now. I'm new to all this so I'm doing all extract for now. I used the Muttons LME (6.6lb) and it is very dark. It's closer to the color of Iced Tea then Weinstephan. As I said, I'm new to all of this so I wasn't realy thinking about the color and didn't look at the color rating on the cans (10) when I bought my supplys. (live and learn) I won't find out about the taste for another few weeks.

Brewby said:

I have a Hefeweissen in the primary right now. I'm new to all this so I'm doing all extract for now. I used the Muttons LME (6.6lb) and it is very dark. It's closer to the color of Iced Tea then Weinstephan. As I said, I'm new to all of this so I wasn't realy thinking about the color and didn't look at the color rating on the cans (10) when I bought my supplys. .

Click to expand...

Canned LME always tends to be dark. There's not really anything you can do about it. If you order bulk LME from a place like morebeer.com or Austin Homebrew Supply (huge, high-volume places), it'll be very fresh and will come in a plastic jar. That helps.

cweston said:

Canned LME always tends to be dark. There's not really anything you can do about it. If you order bulk LME from a place like morebeer.com or Austin Homebrew Supply (huge, high-volume places), it'll be very fresh and will come in a plastic jar. That helps.

Click to expand...

The problem of LME is, that it contains water. This will lead to a darkening of the extract due to slow mailiard reactions. That's why lighter beers often call for DME since this is more stable in terms of color.

Kai

I am an extract brewer and can get my HWs even lighter than what's in your pictures.

I use the "late boil" process. I only boil 1 lb of malt in 1.5 gals of water for 45 mins then add the rest of the malt for 15 mins or until I get another hot break.

As for hops, I use Hallertau whole flowers at 3.3-3.5% and rarely more than 2.2 oz. My HW are on the sweet side, never bitter.

I used Hersbrucker @ 4.75%, 22g (~0.75oz). According to Promash this resulted in 16 IBU's which is about 33% too much. I'm pretty sure I followed Beer Captured's recipe, but don't have it in front of me. I could have screwed the pooch on the HBU's. Next time I'm going with 16g.

So anyways, just for my reference (and jeering comments from the single step infusers ) I plan the following changes for my next batch, hopefully in a week or so:

1. Incorporate an acid rest, infuse to protein, thick decoction to sacch., thin (runoff) decoction to mashout.
2. Acid malt at saccharification rest? Probably try acid rest first and not introduce too many variables to track.
3. Reduce hoppage -> 12 IBU (should have been done in the first place...not sure where I messed that calculation up).
4. Oxygenate half recommended amount. Already trying this with the Weizenbock, but no data yet other than it is, nevertheless, still fermenting 13 days strong.
5. Scoop off kraeusen for the first two days.
6. Secondary no more than 1 week, if not skip it altogether.

Baron von BeeGee said:

1. Incorporate an acid rest, infuse to protein, thick decoction to sacch., thin (runoff) decoction to mashout.
2. Acid malt at saccharification rest? Probably try acid rest first and not introduce too many variables to track.
3. Reduce hoppage -> 12 IBU (should have been done in the first place...not sure where I messed that calculation up).
4. Oxygenate half recommended amount. Already trying this with the Weizenbock, but no data yet other than it is, nevertheless, still fermenting 13 days strong.
5. Scoop off kraeusen for the first two days.
6. Secondary no more than 1 week, if not skip it altogether.

Click to expand...

That's pretty much what I plan to do as well for my first Weizen.

these are the changes:

- the acid that you want to get at the 45*C rest is ferulic acid which will be carboxolated (or whatever) to 4VG by the yeast. Acid malt will give you lactic acid which only helps you in reducing the mash/wort PH. I started to wonder if the ferulic acid can also play this role as it should not affect the acidity of the final beer (unlike lactic acid)

- I'm also contemplating about using a hot water infusion to get to mash-out. But that may overflow my mash tun.

- The GWB book recommends using a secondary fermentation. And I'll also be using Kraeusen (fermenting wort which I will keep from the brew day) to prime the bottles. This worked pretty well for my APA. Almost fully carbonated after 6 days and only a thin layer of yeast on the bottom. Not much more than I usually get.

I guess I should be getting some you your Weihenstephan yeast soon

And I also have to find my copy of the GWB book. I hope I didn't forget it on the plane 2 weeks ago .

Kai

- I was reading somewhere (I'll try to remember where) that the ferulic acid is best freed at a pH of 5.8, so you still want to lower the pH in the meat of the mash. Acidulated malt could do this, or lactic acid, or it may come into line on its own (what I'm hoping for).

- For mashout I will do an infusion if it doesn't throw off my batch volumes, otherwise it seems almost as simple to runoff the required volume and boil it (could be heating the water at the same time as the rest, so there is a time savings with the infusion).

- Saving speisse sounds good to me now, but I know I'll blow it off at the last moment! Might incorporate that later.

- I'll probably secondary for a week, but I want to see if the phenols are better pronounced in a much younger beer than what I did last time...apparently they go fairly rapidly, just as hops do in hoppy ales.

Got a jelly jar of 3068 with your name on it.

Baron von BeeGee said:

- I was reading somewhere (I'll try to remember where) that the ferulic acid is best freed at a pH of 5.8, so you still want to lower the pH in the meat of the mash. Acidulated malt could do this, or lactic acid, or it may come into line on its own (what I'm hoping for).

Click to expand...

good to know as I wasn't aware of this.

Baron von BeeGee said:

- For mashout I will do an infusion if it doesn't throw off my batch volumes, otherwise it seems almost as simple to runoff the required volume and boil it (could be heating the water at the same time as the rest, so there is a time savings with the infusion).

Click to expand...

I was only worried about increased darkening of the wort. But a short boil until the majority of the hot break is over should be fine.

Baron von BeeGee said:

- Saving speisse sounds good to me now, but I know I'll blow it off at the last moment! Might incorporate that later.

Click to expand...

Just keep some wort that doesn't fit in the fermenter, but then again you are using a bucket . Or just strain the remaining 2qts from your trub left in the kettle after whirlpooling and freeze it. You can make the decision about priming with Speise later.

Baron von BeeGee said:

- I'll probably secondary for a week, but I want to see if the phenols are better pronounced in a much younger beer than what I did last time...apparently they go fairly rapidly, just as hops do in hoppy ales.

Click to expand...

Some brewers reported that the majority of the aromas were developed during the conditioning in the bottle. But that doesn't seem to make sense to me. I guess I have to read this source again.

Baron von BeeGee said:

Got a jelly jar of 3068 with your name on it.

Click to expand...

Thanks.

Actually, I read about the higher pH for ferulic acid here:
http://netbeer.org/content/view/33/48/1/1/lang,en/

Looks like some kind of German beer blog?

Saving some speisse from the dregs of the kettle actually sounds pretty feasible.

Baron von BeeGee said:

Actually, I read about the higher pH for ferulic acid here:
http://netbeer.org/content/view/33/48/1/1/lang,en/

Looks like some kind of German beer blog?

Saving some speisse from the dregs of the kettle actually sounds pretty feasible.

Click to expand...

pretty good summary.
Next time my parents send me a package I have to ask them to add some German brewing books .

There are the home brewer books (<$30 each) and then there are the text books (>$60 each). I'd love to get some of the latter, but spending that much on a brewing book ist really pushing it for me.

Kai

Kaiser said:

I'd love to get some of the latter, but spending that much on a brewing book ist really pushing it for me.

Kai

Click to expand...

I've seen your German sneaking through in several recent posts.

'ist' instead of 'is'
'habe' instead of 'have'

I reckon NC has it wrapped up between the Baron & Kaiser on 'anal' Weihenstephan clones! Reading this thread makes me feel like a voyeur!

Just wait until we build cellars (no houses around here have them) and go to open fermentors!

Caplan said:

I reckon NC has it wrapped up between the Baron & Kaiser on 'anal' Weihenstephan clones! Reading this thread makes me feel like a voyeur!

Click to expand...

i actually feel like an IDIOT reading this thread.

Imperial Walker said:

I've seen your German sneaking through in several recent posts.

'ist' instead of 'is'
'habe' instead of 'have'

Click to expand...

That's to funny. But I expected this to happen eventually since I oftentimes switch between reading/posting on this and a German home brewing board. Soon I'll post there in English.

Caplan,

Yes I think we fully covered the aspects of brewing a light Hefe Weizen with mostly clove aroma. But unfortunately, I cannot add this to the list of accomplishments for the week when I sent my status report to my manager.

Kai

Time to go home

Imperial Walker said:

i actually feel like an IDIOT reading this thread.

Click to expand...

You were before anyway

But Walker don't get dragged into this - you've started on wine now and SWMBO approves....... Hefe - verdorben. Vin - Très Bon

Walker has already converted to the dark side, he just doesn't have his lightsaber yet. I mean, look at his avatar.

Then he'll be one of these:

Baron von BeeGee said:

Then he'll be one of these:

Click to expand...

damnit.. is there supposed to be an image there? I have noticed recently that I am NOT seeing a lot of pics that people are posting.

-walker

Well, I've got an image...the 'big' Imperial Walker from ESB, i.e., the last SW movie that didn't suck.

Baron von BeeGee said:

Well, I've got an image...the 'big' Imperial Walker from ESB, i.e., the last SW movie that didn't suck.

Click to expand...

ah, the AT-AT Walker. I was going to chose one of those for my avatar, but in my mind, those are just called at-at's, and the two-legged AT-ST Walkers are known as Imperial Walkers.

Ok.. I'm a dork.

Yep.

(I love the irony of that, given the fact that Kai and I are discussing what pH best frees ferulic acid...)

Whatever, Star Wars is sweet... Except for Episope I... and II and maybe III a little bit...

Weihenstephaner Hefeweissbier

A ProMash Recipe Report

BJCP Style and Style Guidelines
-------------------------------

15-A German Wheat and Rye Beer, Weizen/Weissbier

Min OG: 1.044 Max OG: 1.052
Min IBU: 8 Max IBU: 15
Min Clr: 2 Max Clr: 8 Color in SRM, Lovibond

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (Gal): 5.50 Wort Size (Gal): 5.50
Total Grain (Lbs): 11.50
Anticipated OG: 1.054 Plato: 13.31
Anticipated SRM: 3.5
Anticipated IBU: 12.5
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70 %
Wort Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Pre-Boil Amounts
----------------

Evaporation Rate: 20.00 Percent Per Hour
Pre-Boil Wort Size: 6.88 Gal
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.043 SG 10.74 Plato

Formulas Used
-------------

Brewhouse Efficiency and Predicted Gravity based on Method #1, Potential Used.
Final Gravity Calculation Based on Points.
Hard Value of Sucrose applied. Value for recipe: 46.2100 ppppg
% Yield Type used in Gravity Prediction: Fine Grind Dry Basis.

Color Formula Used: Morey
Hop IBU Formula Used: Rager

Additional Utilization Used For Plug Hops: 2 %
Additional Utilization Used For Pellet Hops: 10 %


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
47.8 5.50 lbs. Pilsener Germany 1.038 2
47.8 5.50 lbs. Wheat Malt Germany 1.039 2
4.3 0.50 lbs. Rice Hulls 1.000 0

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
17.00 g. Hallertau Hersbrucker Pellet 4.75 12.5 60 min.


Yeast
-----

WYeast 3068 Weihenstephan Weizen


Water Profile
-------------

Profile: Raleigh on Neuse
Profile known for: Terrible Creek Ales!

Calcium(Ca): 6.6 ppm
Magnesium(Mg): 2.8 ppm
Sodium(Na): 22.3 ppm
Sulfate(SO4): 34.7 ppm
Chloride(Cl): 15.4 ppm
biCarbonate(HCO3): 32.3 ppm

pH: 8.28


Mash Schedule
-------------

Mash Name: Hefeweizen Single Decoction

Total Grain Lbs: 11.00
Total Water Qts: 11.00 - Before Additional Infusions
Total Water Gal: 2.75 - Before Additional Infusions

Tun Thermal Mass: 0.00
Grain Temp: 75.00 F


Step Rest Start Stop Heat Infuse Infuse Infuse
Step Name Time Time Temp Temp Type Temp Amount Ratio
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Acid Rest 3 20 99 99 Infuse 103 11.00 1.00
Protein Rest 2 30 122 122 Infuse 210 3.45 1.31
Maltose Rest 2 90 147 147 Infuse 210 6.61 1.91
Saccharification R 70 10 160 160 Decoc 212 5.34 0.65 (Decoc Thickness)
Mash Out 5 10 170 170 Decoc 210 5.00 1.50 (Decoc Thickness)


Total Water Qts: 21.06 - After Additional Infusions
Total Water Gal: 5.26 - After Additional Infusions
Total Mash Volume Gal: 6.14 - After Additional Infusions

Baron von BeeGee said:

the last SW movie that didn't suck.

Click to expand...

Star Wars was the last Star Wars movie that didn't suck. I just don't know what Lucas' problem is...he can't seem to make a sequel that doesn't suck...tho I guess Temple of Doom wasn't bad.

Baron von BeeGee said:

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
47.8 5.50 lbs. Pilsener Germany 1.038 2
47.8 5.50 lbs. Wheat Malt Germany 1.039 2
4.3 0.50 lbs. Rice Hulls 1.000 0

Click to expand...

Don't you hate that the rice rulls are included in the percentages of the grains in the grist?
Beersmith is doing the same to me.

Kai

Kaiser said:

Don't you hate that the rice rulls are included in the percentages of the grains in the grist?
Beersmith is doing the same to me.

Kai

Click to expand...

Clearly a bug. I would add them in the extras section, but I don't always look at that. Not that I'd forget them, anyways.