? About adding extract late

I'm getting set to brew my second ever batch, a True Brew Nut Brown ale kit. I would really like to try late extract addition for the liquid extract, which I've been reading about (I'd really like to do full boil, but I don't have a wort chiller). My concern is that this kit came with muntons hopped light mle. No hops are added except for fuggles as a finishing hop. If I add the liquid at the end, will that be enough time to properly bitter? Should I compromise by adding the lme at the start of boil and dme at the end? Or should I just follow the true brew directions and experiment next time? Thanks.

I would think that the hop oils have already been isomerized when they made the extract so your boil time does not matter in terms of extraction. If you were adding whole, plug or pellet hops then you would need to be concerned about how long they were boiling.

Bassman said:

I would think that the hop oils have already been isomerized when they made the extract so your boil time does not matter in terms of extraction. If you were adding whole, plug or pellet hops then you would need to be concerned about how long they were boiling.

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Thats what I was hoping. The fuggles pellet hops are instructed to go in with two minutes left in the boil.

Usually late (last 15 minutes) extract additions are associated with less than a full boil to help with the extraction of bittering hops. Not the case with this kit, right. The only other reason I can think of is the late extract addition will produce a little bit lighter SRM due to less caramelization from the boil, but I doubt that will make any significant difference.

I had also understood the 2 reasons for late extract addition was increased hop extraction and less caramelization. I also agree that in the case of a nut brown I see no real reason why.

[smacks head] uh, never mind.

aikomhoch said:

[smacks head] uh, never mind.

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Why are you giving up on the idea of Late extract addition? You're really getting some crappy information and it's dissuading you?

Late extract additions are NOT about hop extraction, it's ABOUT NOT CARMELLING THE WORT. That's it...Making the best beer possible.

The hop extraction would be taken care of with whatever extract was added initilaly, in a non hopped kit.

But you're doing a pre hopped kit, so it doesn't matter. At all...it's irrelevant to the issue at hand.

In your case, the bitterness is already taken care of in a prehopped kit, and you have aroma hops for the end, which is a good thing.

If it's a two can kit, then I would boil one can in your water and add the other one late. If it's a one can then split it in half.

Do it anyway, it will do no harm and if anything it will be good practice for other batches.

Here's a great article from Oz.Craftbrewer.com, on how to make the best beer with cooper's kits...It's from Australia, the home of coopers, and from the craftbrewer radio guys.

Improving Your Kit

It's from the Craftbrewer Radio site...the article is a companion to.

April#2,2007

The guys get “Down and Dirty” for the Kit and Kilo brewer with the simplist yet method of making a kit beer that tastes great. They also taste the underpitched beer experiment, and follow up on a brewers problem with under-atttenuation. Our beer superhero tries to save the love of his life - and Wonder-Mole, while we look into a beer belly experiment. More on how to say beer words, drink driving, beer laws and a quiz question will fill out the program, with a typical Aussie beer tale sung at the end.

Click to listen;
http://radio.craftbrewer.org/shows/April2-07.mp3

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Have fun trying it, and relax.

Bassman said:

I would think that the hop oils have already been isomerized when they made the extract so your boil time does not matter in terms of extraction.

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Good to see somebody gets it.

Revvy said:

Late extract additions are NOT about hop extraction, it's ABOUT NOT CARMELLING THE WORT. That's it...Making the best beer possible.

The hop extraction would be taken care of with whatever extract was added initilaly, in a non hopped kit..

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I know the OP has a pre-hopped extract, But--I thought I read that higher Specific Gravity decreased the hops utilization

Doing a partial (water) boil with 1/2 the extract for most of the boil (with late extract addition) should increase hops utilization, correct?

t

bonsai4tim said:

I know the OP has a pre-hopped extract, But--I thought I read that higher Specific Gravity decreased the hops utilization

Doing a partial (water) boil with 1/2 the extract for most of the boil (with late extract addition) should increase hops utilization, correct?

t

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Yeah, you read it somewhere .....but you missed the big point that we're not DEALING WITH HOP UTILIZATION ISSUES IN A PRE-HOPPED KIT. The hops have already been UTILIZED.

That has been taken care of when they boil the kit, hence the term "Pre-hooped"...the only hops being added in this case is aroma...and that's NOT gonna matter.

You're actually confusing what is a very simple brewing issue by over complicating it...and scaring off from doing something.

And in the case of the non-pre-hopped beers where you add bittering hops, honestly the amount of "tweaking" to compensate for that in a LEA is really too insignificant to sweat even, when you are starting out....If you want to be anal, you can, but like so much in brewing, there's many ways to do something, and many theories, and plenty of folks make great beer by ignoring the theories and just doing it.

You wanna hear something interesting? That will really put the idea of small changes in Ibu's and Ibus in general into perspective?

John Palmer basically admits that what he wrote about IBU's in How to brew, was essentially "wrong" or at least outdated in light of new science...

Basic Brewing Thursday, March 20, 2008 4:30 PM
John Palmer, author of How to Brew, shares information from a conference that challenged his concept of what defines an International Bitterness Unit (IBU). Click to listen, MP-3

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It will really screw up you head even...or it will make you not sweat the small stuff, like tweaking a tiny bit of hops. We couldn't perceive that small change anyway,

Sorry to be mean about but I really hate to see someone being dissuaded from doing something that actually GOOD for his beer, and learning his process, by some info that is really just being taken out of context to the issue at hand.

Alright, I'm presently steeping the specialty grains. I will split the can in two like Revvy suggested. Looking good. Smells great.

Done. Ended up with a SG of 1.062, waaaaaay over the expected range of 49-51.

I calibrated my hydrometer, so I know it's accurate. Trouble?

aikomhoch said:

Done. Ended up with a SG of 1.062, waaaaaay over the expected range of 49-51.

I calibrated my hydrometer, so I know it's accurate. Trouble?

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Not trouble, Typical...

It's a pretty common issue for ANYONE using extract and then topping off with water (and that includes partial mashes) to have an error in reading the OG...In fact, it is actually nearly impossible to mix the wort and the top off water in a way to get an accurate OG reading...

Brewers get a low reading if they get more of the top off water than the wort, conversely they get a higher number if they grabbed more of the extract than the top off water in their sample.

When I am doing an extract with grain recipe I make sure to stir for a minimum of 5 minutes (whipping up a froth to aerate as well) before I draw a grav sample and pitch my yeast....It really is an effort to integrate the wort with the top off water...This is a fairly common new brewer issue we get on here...unless you under or over topped off or the final volume for the kit was 5 gallons and you topped off to 5.5, then the issue, sorry to say, is "operator error"

it doesn't matter what your reading was.....the "real reading" in an extract batch is what it said it would be in the recipe or beersmith....Whether or not you mixed it up enough before you took the reading it mixed itself up fine during fermentation.

So unless you had a final volume a gallon or so higher than 5 gallons....you recipe will be fine and at the OG it was supposed to be,

I bet your OG is EXACTLY what it is supposed to be.

And during fermentation the wort and water will mix up just fine on it's own.

Revvy said:

Not trouble, Typical...
Brewers get a low reading if they get more of the top off water than the wort, conversely they get a higher number if they grabbed more of the extract than the top off water in their sample.

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That explains it. I used my new wine thief and that definitely pulled just from the bottom. Now I know to mix better. It was nice and frothed at the top, so I think I did a good job aerating.

The Notty is in and I'm ready for the fun to begin!

aikomhoch said:

That explains it. I used my new wine thief and that definitely pulled just from the bottom. Now I know to mix better. It was nice and frothed at the top, so I think I did a good job aerating.

The Notty is in and I'm ready for the fun to begin!

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Yeha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Thanks for the kind words, btw!:rockin:

aikomhoch said:

The Notty is in and I'm ready for the fun to begin!

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12 hours later and the airlock is going to town. I'm wondering if I should have purchased tubing for a blow off....guess I'll find out the hard way.

Beer is on the way!

Update if you care: Almost a full week later I took a gravity reading and it's 1.016. I'm thrilled, as my first batch was stuck at 1020 and finished at 1017. I accidentally drank the entire sample after and it was delicious. It tasted a little alcoholic, if that makes sense. It was my first time using star san (all over the thief before stealing) but I know that's tasteless, so that couldn't be it. I'm chalking it up to not being carbed yet.

I bought a 5 gallon Better Bottle today and I'm thinking of racking this batch to it for conditioning. I know it's not necessary, but I think I'd like to do it while I'm still learning and try it out. I realize a Brown Ale won't really benefit from the clarifying benefits of a secondary, but I would like the experience of it.

[In before Revvy ] Let it sit for at least two more weeks before racking to secondary.